A vegan diet is the healthiest diet - discuss

[Dualta]

I'm a vegan. Bite me.

[Dukasaur]

I'm a vegan. Bite me.

Wouldn't encouraging us to bite you be encouraging the eating of meat, and therefore a self-contradicting position for you to take?

[mrswdk]

A non-vegan diet is the tastiest.

[Dualta]

I'm a vegan. Bite me.

Wouldn't encouraging us to bite you be encouraging the eating of meat, and therefore a self-contradicting position for you to take?

Who's gonna tell him, fellas?

[Dualta]

A non-vegan diet is the tastiest.

Not demonstrable beyond opinion. Stick to what can be backed up with evidence.

[mrswdk]

Foie gras is all the evidence we need!

[Dukasaur]

Foie gras is all the evidence we need!

... and not that bullshit urban pate, either! Foie gras a la campagne!

[Dualta]

Foie gras is all the evidence we need!

But you're not discussing the topic at hand. Is a vegan diet the healthiest diet?

[Metsfanmax]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

[Dualta]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Indeed! And we can expand that to a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

For others reading this, there is an increasing body of scientific evidence that shows that the links between some forms of cancers and the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are in fact stronger than the link between smoking and lung cancer. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the major diseases of today being linked to the consumption of animal products. So enjoy your foie gras while you can. It seems the geese will be having the last laugh

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Indeed! And we can expand that to a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

For others reading this, there is an increasing body of scientific evidence that shows that the links between some forms of cancers and the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are in fact stronger than the link between smoking and lung cancer. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the major diseases of today being linked to the consumption of animal products. So enjoy your foie gras while you can. It seems the geese will be having the last laugh

Dairy, perhaps. And the continual overconsumption of processed or large scale meat outfits at the expense of vegetables and such. The idea of a whole foods diet is based on evolutionary medicine, which entails that the consumption of meat is part of a natural diet.

Look no further than current hunter gatherers who consume meat. The incidence of cancers of the GI tract or hypertension or heart disease is almost null.

-TG

[BigBallinStalin]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Indeed! And we can expand that to a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

For others reading this, there is an increasing body of scientific evidence that shows that the links between some forms of cancers and the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are in fact stronger than the link between smoking and lung cancer. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the major diseases of today being linked to the consumption of animal products. So enjoy your foie gras while you can. It seems the geese will be having the last laugh

Dairy, perhaps. And the continual overconsumption of processed or large scale meat outfits at the expense of vegetables and such. The idea of a whole foods diet is based on evolutionary medicine, which entails that the consumption of meat is part of a natural diet.

Look no further than current hunter gatherers who consume meat. The incidence of cancers of the GI tract or hypertension or heart disease is almost null.

-TG

Is their diet in any way connected to their relatively shorter lifespans?

[nietzsche]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Indeed! And we can expand that to a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

For others reading this, there is an increasing body of scientific evidence that shows that the links between some forms of cancers and the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are in fact stronger than the link between smoking and lung cancer. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the major diseases of today being linked to the consumption of animal products. So enjoy your foie gras while you can. It seems the geese will be having the last laugh

I'll bet my beutiful ass that you would be much much much healthier if you ate meat and eggs but didn't eat anything processed than if you ate your vegan diet with bagels and muffins in it. Meat and eggs are not a problem if they don't come from animals given all kind of shit to get bigger or produce more. In any case, the body can repair itself, you just need to give it time and stress relief.

[BigBallinStalin]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Doesn't such a diet relying solely on whey protein result in an inordinate amount of estrogen?

And, would a plant-based diet cover the full range of necessary proteins/amino acids?

[Dukasaur]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Indeed! And we can expand that to a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

For others reading this, there is an increasing body of scientific evidence that shows that the links between some forms of cancers and the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are in fact stronger than the link between smoking and lung cancer. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the major diseases of today being linked to the consumption of animal products. So enjoy your foie gras while you can. It seems the geese will be having the last laugh

I'm skeptical of "growing bodies" of evidence. Usually it indicates faddists re-asserting flimsy evidence over and over again, and treating each re-assertion as a new "study" when in fact it's a regurgitation of earlier studies. Call me again when the body has finished growing and is ready to be examined in toto.

Of all the major nutrients, the only one that is truly and unequivocally linked to disease is sucrose and its derivatives, and you're more likely to get excessive sucrose eating plant-based foods than animal-based foods. Beyond that, excessive consumption of anything is bad for you, but again the sucrose in plant-based foods is what triggers insulin spikes which is what triggers cravings which is what triggers a good portion of the overconsumption, so once again you're more likely to consume and suffer the consequences, if you eat a vegan diet and don't watch the sugar content like a hawk.

Among animal foods, most of the proven health hazards come from preservation methods -- the excessive salt content in pickled herrings, the excessive nitrites and hydrocarbon particulates in smoked sausage, that sort of thing. If I really cared, I could eat my herrings not-pickled or my sausage not-smoked, but quite honestly I don't care enough to bother. I feel the risks are small enough. If they were larger I would do something about them.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Indeed! And we can expand that to a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

For others reading this, there is an increasing body of scientific evidence that shows that the links between some forms of cancers and the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are in fact stronger than the link between smoking and lung cancer. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the major diseases of today being linked to the consumption of animal products. So enjoy your foie gras while you can. It seems the geese will be having the last laugh

Dairy, perhaps. And the continual overconsumption of processed or large scale meat outfits at the expense of vegetables and such. The idea of a whole foods diet is based on evolutionary medicine, which entails that the consumption of meat is part of a natural diet.

Look no further than current hunter gatherers who consume meat. The incidence of cancers of the GI tract or hypertension or heart disease is almost null.

-TG

Is their diet in any way connected to their relatively shorter lifespans?

Not that I'm aware of. A lot of the reason you see short lifespans in hunter gatherer stats is mainly the incidence of infant death (before 5 years). It really brings the average down. Plus a lack of real medicine for when they get diseases.

-TG

[Dualta]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Doesn't such a diet relying solely on whey protein result in an inordinate amount of estrogen?

And, would a plant-based diet cover the full range of necessary proteins/amino acids?

Estrogen has been linked to cancers in women, such as breast cancer, but vegan women have the lowest incidence of breast cancer of all. High levels of testosterone have also been linked to higher risks of cancer in men, but vegan men have the highest levels of testosterone, yet the lowest levels of cancer of any other group of men.

And yes, it is very easy to get all the necessary protein from plants (proteins are made up of amino acids). The issue of protein and vegan/vegetarian diets always comes up, i.e. "Where do you get your protein?" It's a common misconception that we can only get protein from eating animals. Most national dietary guidelines suggest that an average human needs 10-14% dietary protein, and if you look at the plants with the lowest protein content, like potatoes, they have around that much, so it is not possible to be protein deficient on a whole-foods plant-based diet without being calorie deficient.

[Dualta]

If any of you are seriously into looking into this, I suggest you watch this presentation. It's a lot of fun, but it's really very informative. You will thank me for it afterwards.

[mrswdk]

Didn't those studies find a correlation between red meat consumption and heart disease (etc.) among participants, but overlooked the fact that higher red meat consumption also correlated with participants having a higher alcohol consumption, heavier smoking habit and a more sedentary lifestyle?

Besides that, there are studies that show almost anything can increase your risk of cancer. We'd barely dare get out of bed if we worried about all the 'xxxx causes cancer' literature that exists. I personally feel that as long as I avoid the major hazards (strolling through the Fukushima reactor, eating tubs of lard between meals) then life is too short to be obsessing over miniscule detail.

[nietzsche]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Indeed! And we can expand that to a whole-foods, plant-based diet.

For others reading this, there is an increasing body of scientific evidence that shows that the links between some forms of cancers and the consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, are in fact stronger than the link between smoking and lung cancer. And this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the major diseases of today being linked to the consumption of animal products. So enjoy your foie gras while you can. It seems the geese will be having the last laugh

Dairy, perhaps. And the continual overconsumption of processed or large scale meat outfits at the expense of vegetables and such. The idea of a whole foods diet is based on evolutionary medicine, which entails that the consumption of meat is part of a natural diet.

Look no further than current hunter gatherers who consume meat. The incidence of cancers of the GI tract or hypertension or heart disease is almost null.

-TG

Is their diet in any way connected to their relatively shorter lifespans?

So you see no markets here and you make a basic, dumb mistake?

I'm angry cause nobody reacted to my post.

[Metsfanmax]

I don't agree with the statement as a categorical. A vegan diet is defined by what it doesn't do (eat animal products), which means that eating potato chips for every meal is technically vegan.

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Doesn't such a diet relying solely on whey protein result in an inordinate amount of estrogen?

Vegans don't even consume whey protein. Did you mean soy? If so, soy contains phytoestrogens, compounds that behave like estrogen does in some ways, but there's no established link between moderate amounts of soy consumption and any obvious negative health effects.

And, would a plant-based diet cover the full range of necessary proteins/amino acids?

Yes, but you do have to be careful to consume the right plants. If you just ate vegetables and fruits, you wouldn't get the right spectrum. But if you include in that beans, lentils, quinoa, things like that, then you're fine.

Regarding the evidence linking plant-based diets with lower cancer rates. I'll side with Dukasaur on this one. There is a lot of correlational evidence between low animal product consumption and low cancer rates. The book The China Study and the documentary Forks Over Knives is one example of this. But the science is far from being definitive at this point. I don't think that these studies have really done the right statistics to be able to establish causation. Like, if you watch Forks Over Knives, they argue that because p < 0.05 convinced them of the link. But if you do that study 20 times, one time that'll happen purely by random chance using that criterion.

[Dualta]

they argue that because p < 0.05 convinced them of the link. But if you do that study 20 times, one time that'll happen purely by random chance using that criterion.

I've watched Forks Over knives and read The China Study, and from what I gathered, they got the same data over numerous tests, undertaken with various proteins, not just the casein from the original Indian test. Furthermore, there have been numerous other studies by other researchers looking at links between meat, eggs and dairy and cancer. Dr. Michael Greger gives a pretty decent rundown of some of them in the presentation I posted above.

[PLAYER57832]

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Not really, though it has been touted a lot, nor is it necessarily better for the planet.

It all depends on quantities. Most of those looking at plants versus meats are really comparisons of a heavy, commercially produced meat diet verus a mostly organic plant diet. its not a fair comparision.

Where you live also matters. In very cold climates people need more fat. (and note, most of us, even who have addresses in colder climates,don't actually LIVE in those cliamtes...we live indoors and just pass through the cold)

Health condistions matter. Younger children cannot process raw vegetable proteins well. (you have to process them in various ways,be it simply cooking or other steps)

[Dualta]

A plant-based diet is the healthiest diet? Absolutely.

Not really, though it has been touted a lot, nor is it necessarily better for the planet.

It all depends on quantities. Most of those looking at plants versus meats are really comparisons of a heavy, commercially produced meat diet verus a mostly organic plant diet. its not a fair comparision.

Where you live also matters. In very cold climates people need more fat. (and note, most of us, even who have addresses in colder climates,don't actually LIVE in those cliamtes...we live indoors and just pass through the cold)

Health condistions matter. Younger children cannot process raw vegetable proteins well. (you have to process them in various ways,be it simply cooking or other steps)

I have to say that there's more than a little assumption being employed here.

Firstly, in terms of emissions, the UN has released a report detailing how rearing animals for human consumption is responsible for more greenhouse gase emissions than the entire global transport industry. Also factoring in the deforestation that has been undertaken for ranching, plus the massive amounts of energy and water required to produce 1kg animal protein compared to 1kg of healthier plant protein, I think we can safely say that consuming less animals and more plants is definitely better for the environment.

"It takes 4,800 litres of water to produce 1kg of pork, 3,900 litres for 1kg of chicken and just 1,300 litres of water to produce 1 kg of wheat; 900 litres to produce 1kg of maize." Source: http://www.makeitpossible.com/features/ ... planet.php

UN report detailed here: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?n ... ujYY_ampcw

It doesn't matter where you live, or how hot or cold it is, if you eat animal fats you have a severely increased risk of coronary heart disease. you can get all the necessary fats from plants, and they're not the nasty saturated fats that you get from animals that do the damage.

Regarding children's health. In the USA, almost all children aged 10 already show the early stages of heart disease, primarily as as result of eating animals, dairy and eggs. For reference I refer you to the presentation linked above. I'd like to see a link to the claim you made regarding children not being able to process raw vegetable proteins well. Notwithstanding, it doesn't mean that eating animal proteins is in an way healthier for them.

[Dukasaur]

I'm angry cause nobody reacted to my post.

Nobody reacted to my post, either, but I just take that as normal...