Conquer Club

I was reading last night and found this theory. Never had read that theory before, or heard mentioned it anywhere else.

According with the author, Christianity (and the others Jewish religions, or western) started as a poor-people religion. So Jesus "promised" heaven because people was suffering, and wanted an end to it. A light at the end of the tunnel if you will. That way people would cheer up a little and "enjoy" more every day, if you will. "Give no thought about tomorrow" said, (or something similar).

In contrast, the eastern religions, specially Buddhism, started in India, where people's main problem was not poverty, but boredom. India was an old country already. Buddha then told them that they would have many lives, in fact, non stop reincarnations with the same type of lives if they did not meditate and transcend it. They could not be lured with a heaven, for they were already in a sort of heaven.

I'm not sure how accurate the author is, but he's supposed to be an expert in eastern philosophy and spiritualism.

If this were to be correct, or if it were to be at least on to something, would it be part of the reason for the increase in the interest in spiritualism (eastern spiritualism) in the western world?

Assuming its true that life in ancient India was like being in heaven already, if what your source says were accurate then why haven't the hundreds of millions of Indians who now live in abject poverty started abandoning their religion in favor of one that promises a better afterlife?

It also seems more than a little bogus to suggest that people who live comfortable lives will get bored and latch on to death as a way of putting an end to their boredom. My life is pretty comfortable and I would rather be reincarnated into a similar life than achieve Enlightenment and snuff myself out.

mrswdk wrote:Assuming its true that life in ancient India was like being in heaven already, if what your source says were accurate then why haven't the hundreds of millions of Indians who now live in abject poverty started abandoning their religion in favor of one that promises a better afterlife?

I'm not being so naive as to believe that those were the only causes. I'm more interested in the ideas behind it. We are talking of the start of these religions, more specifically of the conditions these profets encountered in their times. A profet today, if he was to be succesful in deliver whichever message he wanted to share would have to work with the current conditions.

Behind the while thing then is, which i didn't say because i thought it was implied, that the message was sort of the same. That is what the author is saying.

Is this a thread for serious discussion, or a target for derailment? In light of recent conversations, I feel like a label might be necessary.

Bollocks.

nietzsche wrote:I was reading last night and found this theory. Never had read that theory before, or heard mentioned it anywhere else.

According with the author, Christianity (and the others Jewish religions, or western) started as a poor-people religion. So Jesus "promised" heaven because people was suffering, and wanted an end to it. A light at the end of the tunnel if you will. That way people would cheer up a little and "enjoy" more every day, if you will. "Give no thought about tomorrow" said, (or something similar).

In contrast, the eastern religions, specially Buddhism, started in India, where people's main problem was not poverty, but boredom. India was an old country already. Buddha then told them that they would have many lives, in fact, non stop reincarnations with the same type of lives if they did not meditate and transcend it. They could not be lured with a heaven, for they were already in a sort of heaven.

I'm not sure how accurate the author is, but he's supposed to be an expert in eastern philosophy and spiritualism.

If this were to be correct, or if it were to be at least on to something, would it be part of the reason for the increase in the interest in spiritualism (eastern spiritualism) in the western world?

Why would Christianity remain so popular if it's a "poor-person's" religion?

Why are East/South Asian's main problem boredom... and not poverty? Poverty suddenly become a problem in the past 60 years? They got bored of being poor?

It doesn't make much sense. He's painting too broadly.

Serbia wrote:Is this a thread for serious discussion, or a target for derailment? In light of recent conversations, I feel like a label might be necessary.

Bollocks.

You slovenly drunk! Are you care about is derailment--and not construction!

Construct, Serbia! Construct!

I think it leaves most questions about Jaimie Coots unanswered.

I don't know enough about the history of western monotheism to understand why it was popular. Obviously, you hear things and there are things I believe as a Catholic, but nothing really says "here's why it was successful." I had a professor in college who was convinced that peoples living in Europe in medieval times were zealots from a religious perspective (compared to those today) and posited this was because of general scientific ignorance.

That being said, another professor I had in college noted that the Greek pantheon of gods were as fallible (if not more so) as humans, which spoke to ancient Greek culture.

Maybe there would be less celiacs if they did not use azodicarbonamide to make bread.

There would probably be less religious people if there wasn't any religion.

"Heineken?!? f*ck that shit!!! Pabst Blue Ribbon!!!"
that's a terrible beer, 2dimes...

Heineken is the best light beer and Pabst Blue Ribbon as a premium beer is fine too. If I'm just having one or two, make mine a stout Guiness or a black & tan.

Seems to me spirituality grows from a desire to believe there is something more beyond this life. I don't understand people's need to impose their beliefs on others. Maybe there's a human desire for everyone to "be just like us." Every culture has it's own creation myth about the origins of human existence on this planet. Many civilizations have also exerted themselves geographically enforcing the ill fated logic that "might makes right." History is written by the dominant forces of the World and many religions have grown by falling in line behind them.

Few people want to believe that this life is all there is, seek ways of understanding this world and look for ways to explain our being here. The aggressive nature of most cultures defies the religious practice of nearly all beliefs. If the tenants of faiths were followed war would be extinct by now and people of all faiths would coexist in peace. As the dominant predator on the planet humans have more impact on the environment and it's inhabitants than any other creature here.

Oddly enough it is the people civilized cultures consider primitive, with their reverence for nature, that have the most honest spirituality. They require less to be happy and enjoy the most peaceful life.

Which people are those?

oVo wrote:They require less to be happy and enjoy the most peaceful life.

Speak for yourself.

oVo wrote:Heineken is the best light beer and Pabst Blue Ribbon as a premium beer is fine too. If I'm just having one or two, make mine a stout Guiness or a black & tan.

Seems to me spirituality grows from a desire to believe there is something more beyond this life. I don't understand people's need to impose their beliefs on others. Maybe there's a human desire for everyone to "be just like us." Every culture has it's own creation myth about the origins of human existence on this planet. Many civilizations have also exerted themselves geographically enforcing the ill fated logic that "might makes right." History is written by the dominant forces of the World and many religions have grown by falling in line behind them.

Few people want to believe that this life is all there is, seek ways of understanding this world and look for ways to explain our being here. The aggressive nature of most cultures defies the religious practice of nearly all beliefs. If the tenants of faiths were followed war would be extinct by now and people of all faiths would coexist in peace. As the dominant predator on the planet humans have more impact on the environment and it's inhabitants than any other creature here.

Oddly enough it is the people civilized cultures consider primitive, with their reverence for nature, that have the most honest spirituality. They require less to be happy and enjoy the most peaceful life.

Uh-huh. That's why they tend to have the highest per-capita homicide rates, right?

Their rates on average are even worse than the rates from all 20th century wars between nation-states. The "Noble Savage" idea is bullshit.

BigBallinStalin wrote:

oVo wrote:Heineken is the best light beer and Pabst Blue Ribbon as a premium beer is fine too. If I'm just having one or two, make mine a stout Guiness or a black & tan.

Seems to me spirituality grows from a desire to believe there is something more beyond this life. I don't understand people's need to impose their beliefs on others. Maybe there's a human desire for everyone to "be just like us." Every culture has it's own creation myth about the origins of human existence on this planet. Many civilizations have also exerted themselves geographically enforcing the ill fated logic that "might makes right." History is written by the dominant forces of the World and many religions have grown by falling in line behind them.

Few people want to believe that this life is all there is, seek ways of understanding this world and look for ways to explain our being here. The aggressive nature of most cultures defies the religious practice of nearly all beliefs. If the tenants of faiths were followed war would be extinct by now and people of all faiths would coexist in peace. As the dominant predator on the planet humans have more impact on the environment and it's inhabitants than any other creature here.

Oddly enough it is the people civilized cultures consider primitive, with their reverence for nature, that have the most honest spirituality. They require less to be happy and enjoy the most peaceful life.

Uh-huh. That's why they tend to have the highest per-capita homicide rates, right?

Their rates on average are even worse than the rates from all 20th century wars between nation-states. The "Noble Savage" idea is bullshit.

Statistics and pie charts please.

BigBallinStalin wrote:

nietzsche wrote:I was reading last night and found this theory. Never had read that theory before, or heard mentioned it anywhere else.

According with the author, Christianity (and the others Jewish religions, or western) started as a poor-people religion. So Jesus "promised" heaven because people was suffering, and wanted an end to it. A light at the end of the tunnel if you will. That way people would cheer up a little and "enjoy" more every day, if you will. "Give no thought about tomorrow" said, (or something similar).

In contrast, the eastern religions, specially Buddhism, started in India, where people's main problem was not poverty, but boredom. India was an old country already. Buddha then told them that they would have many lives, in fact, non stop reincarnations with the same type of lives if they did not meditate and transcend it. They could not be lured with a heaven, for they were already in a sort of heaven.

I'm not sure how accurate the author is, but he's supposed to be an expert in eastern philosophy and spiritualism.

If this were to be correct, or if it were to be at least on to something, would it be part of the reason for the increase in the interest in spiritualism (eastern spiritualism) in the western world?

Why would Christianity remain so popular if it's a "poor-person's" religion?

Why are East/South Asian's main problem boredom... and not poverty? Poverty suddenly become a problem in the past 60 years? They got bored of being poor?

It doesn't make much sense. He's painting too broadly.

More than of the religions, he's speaking of the prophets' messages. Even more than that, he's saying that what the prophets said was only a means and not necessarily an objective truth. That's is what he's saying and I'm not pushing this because I know how it's important to some for the message to be the absolute truth, for others to be completely false and to others to be symbolism. I'm interested in the idea, the theory.

Borrowing Dawkins idea of a meme, I don't have to explain why it remains popular (whatever religion), only that it once started and it continued to exist, because satisfies a need. This is paragraph is not clear, I'm kind of tired today, but you get my point.

About your Asia question, he says (I'm completely unsure of this historical fact) that when these prophets shared their message it was an old and rich country. Of course not for our standards.

Yes, it's too general, and reductionistic if you will. But I was interested to hear what you guys thought to the core idea, more that of the details, I didn't know about this theory before.

notyou2 wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:

oVo wrote:Heineken is the best light beer and Pabst Blue Ribbon as a premium beer is fine too. If I'm just having one or two, make mine a stout Guiness or a black & tan.

Seems to me spirituality grows from a desire to believe there is something more beyond this life. I don't understand people's need to impose their beliefs on others. Maybe there's a human desire for everyone to "be just like us." Every culture has it's own creation myth about the origins of human existence on this planet. Many civilizations have also exerted themselves geographically enforcing the ill fated logic that "might makes right." History is written by the dominant forces of the World and many religions have grown by falling in line behind them.

Few people want to believe that this life is all there is, seek ways of understanding this world and look for ways to explain our being here. The aggressive nature of most cultures defies the religious practice of nearly all beliefs. If the tenants of faiths were followed war would be extinct by now and people of all faiths would coexist in peace. As the dominant predator on the planet humans have more impact on the environment and it's inhabitants than any other creature here.

Oddly enough it is the people civilized cultures consider primitive, with their reverence for nature, that have the most honest spirituality. They require less to be happy and enjoy the most peaceful life.

Uh-huh. That's why they tend to have the highest per-capita homicide rates, right?

Their rates on average are even worse than the rates from all 20th century wars between nation-states. The "Noble Savage" idea is bullshit.

Statistics and pie charts please.

book:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels ... 1455883115

tedtalk:
http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_ ... lence.html

god damn it, i posted a long second response to Mrs. WDK last night, pressed submit, put the phone on the desk and the fucking thing failed to send the message.

Basically it was like this, boredom is a fact for some rich people, I have a rich friend, of those who won't have to work in their life, even his grand kids will have enough, and he complains he's always bored, that it's all the same, sex, books and friends+beer. That he doesn't feel like doing anything. Basically he's bored he has it all. You perhaps (Mrs.) are not rich enough, or even though you are rich you have other goals. In any case you are not a subject that would follow a religion I assume. But many people is, and more than trying to say one thing is right and another is wrong, i was interested in discussing, or knowing if anyone else had hear the authors idea.

oVo wrote:Heineken is the best light beer and Pabst Blue Ribbon as a premium beer is fine too. If I'm just having one or two, make mine a stout Guiness or a black & tan.

Seems to me spirituality grows from a desire to believe there is something more beyond this life. I don't understand people's need to impose their beliefs on others. Maybe there's a human desire for everyone to "be just like us." Every culture has it's own creation myth about the origins of human existence on this planet. Many civilizations have also exerted themselves geographically enforcing the ill fated logic that "might makes right." History is written by the dominant forces of the World and many religions have grown by falling in line behind them.

Few people want to believe that this life is all there is, seek ways of understanding this world and look for ways to explain our being here. The aggressive nature of most cultures defies the religious practice of nearly all beliefs. If the tenants of faiths were followed war would be extinct by now and people of all faiths would coexist in peace. As the dominant predator on the planet humans have more impact on the environment and it's inhabitants than any other creature here.

Oddly enough it is the people civilized cultures consider primitive, with their reverence for nature, that have the most honest spirituality. They require less to be happy and enjoy the most peaceful life.

That is in fact what seems to be all about, the fear of nothingness. But it in fact, more. Many thing changes if you change your mind, if you switch from atheism to some kind of theism. Many, many, you have no idea (maybe you have, I'm just typing) how intricate it is, and how a simple thing would change a lot of your psyche.

There's a kind of cynicism in atheism, and no, I'm not talking of the athesim that is portrayed in a Hitchens book, but the atheism you encounter every day.

I still doubt that many Indians in 800BC (ish) were wealthy enough to become aimless and bored with life. Most people would have been subsistence farmers at that time.

I am discussing the author's idea.

mrswdk wrote:I still doubt that many Indians in 800BC (ish) were wealthy enough to become aimless and bored with life. Most people would have been subsistence farmers at that time.

I am discussing the author's idea.

I admit I have no clue (nor plan on investigating) the social economic situation of India in the times the three eastern prophets lived. But Imagine this scenario: it's the year 2222, somehow (thanks I think to Mets) we managed to control pollution and global climate change, with the help of information available to everyone, people became more and more educated, giving rise to more responsible citizens of the world in the aspects of politics, charity and in every walk of life. One has to work still, the demanding 3 hours a day for the whole first 4 days of the week. Nanotechnology has made miracles advances in disease prevention, and after the massive death of people in 2098 due to bad dieting habits, the fabulous science of eat-yummy-and-healthy developed the most amazing snacks that are actually good for your health. The working class is pissed though, because 1% of the population have access to the wonderful fields of mars, and they just can't afford to travel there. Relating to sex, with the HumanDollClonningPrinter, everyone has access to any sexual fantasy.

That working class I just described, has a much better life than any rich people these days. It's a matter of perspective.

I have access to all kind of resources that rich people could only dream of only 500 years ago. Yet I want more.

WIth this I'm not saying the author is right, I'm actually doing what I mean when I say I'm more interested in the theories, ideas. And having fun.

Well the lesson in your last post is that most people will always be wanting more, and will therefore never reach the stage of being so rich they feel they already 'have it all' and get bored.

mrswdk wrote:Well the lesson in your last post is that most people will always be wanting more, and will therefore never reach the stage of being so rich they feel they already 'have it all' and get bored.

Yes, but it also shows that it's about perspective, a rich person in 2014 might think that he has everything he could wish for, yet he isn't as rich as a working class person of 2222. The perspective of this rich person may be that there's nothing to strive for since he already has it all. In the same manner, a "rich" person living in 1000 BC might feel that he has tasted all the pleasures he could taste and be bored with his life, though he has never had a venti coffee frappuccino, with cream.