Conquer Club

Seems a lot of the civilians (at least in Kiev) don't want to be closely tied to Russia, but would rather have closer ties to the Western Part of Europe. Military action by others looks doubtful, but sanctions certainly seem to be close to happening. Story seems similar to the Egyptian protests/riots as well. Started off with peaceful protesting, and then something set it off and so far at least 100 people have been killed and many more wounded.

Thoughts on what will happen in Ukraine?

I'm not sure what to think, but it seems that the fourteen years of rule by the current leaders may end. I've watched these events unfold for nearly four months and don't know with any certainty where the allegiance of police and military stands. Except they are still facing off with the demonstrators in the streets and can only wonder what they think of the situation or the Ukrainian citizens who have maintained this protest.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Seems a lot of the civilians (at least in Kiev) don't want to be closely tied to Russia, but would rather have closer ties to the Western Part of Europe. Military action by others looks doubtful, but sanctions certainly seem to be close to happening. Story seems similar to the Egyptian protests/riots as well. Started off with peaceful protesting, and then something set it off and so far at least 100 people have been killed and many more wounded.

Thoughts on what will happen in Ukraine?

I think the pull of Russia will be too great and Ukrainians can look forward to another 20 years of developing.

oVo wrote:I'm not sure what to think, but it seems that the fourteen years of rule by the current leaders may end.

Que? Ukraine has been governed by 5 different Prime Ministers from 4 different political parties in the last 14 years. In the same period, the U.S. has been governed by 2 different parties.

Not a single thing that may or may not have happened in Ukraine is even in the same orbit as the treatment of the Palestinian people that the U.S. - while it's crying crocodile tears over events in Kiev - has enabled through its gun-running to the Israeli mafia state. Or the known pedophile who runs Saudi Arabia, for that matter.

2011 - 93 Bahraini civilians (out of pop. of 1 million) killed by U.S.-armed GCC troops, U.S. sends out a press release expressing "concern" - obedient U.S. media run a few stories below the latest headlines on Honey Boo Boo
2014 - 24 Ukrainian "civilians" allegedly killed (out of pop. of 44 million), U.S. goes into overdrive expressing shock and horror - CNN turns to non-stop Ukraine coverage to whip Americans into a frenzy

You can't complain your neighbor didn't rake the leaves off the sidewalk while you're running a radioactive horse meat factory in your backyard.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Seems a lot of the civilians (at least in Kiev) don't want to be closely tied to Russia, but would rather have closer ties to the Western Part of Europe. Military action by others looks doubtful, but sanctions certainly seem to be close to happening. Story seems similar to the Egyptian protests/riots as well. Started off with peaceful protesting, and then something set it off and so far at least 100 people have been killed and many more wounded.

Thoughts on what will happen in Ukraine?

How do you know what civilians in Kiev want? I doubt you are/were there recently and probably you don't have magical crystal ball
If you getting your conclusions from Western media then you can watch Russia Today so everything will be mixed up in your head

What can happen in Ukraine?
1. The country splits(hopefully peacefully), and prorussian part will merge with Russia, while the western Ukraine will advance towards EU but its economy will suffer badly at the beginning.
2. Undecided, the country will hardly have any advance for some time.
3. Ukraine as a whole straightens its ties with Russia... or better said Russia is fully back on track.

There are no similarities between the motives in Ukrainian and Egyptian protesters... Egypt was split between Islamist and Secular while Ukraine is split between ProUkrainian and ProRussian part. So in Egypt there was religious conflict and in Ukraine its national one, and in Egypt the population with different religious believes is mixed almost everywhere opposite from Ukraine where you have 2 almost non mixed parts.

Most likely the near outcome will be 2 or 3 since EU(without any significant help of US) is by no match equal to Russia.

GoranZ wrote:Most likely the near outcome will be 2 or 3 since EU(without any significant help of US) is by no match equal to Russia.

Exactly, unless the EU (with the US) really ups their game, I think the result will be #3.

saxitoxin wrote:

oVo wrote:I'm not sure what to think, but it seems that the fourteen years of rule by the current leaders may end.

Que? Ukraine has been governed by 5 different Prime Ministers from 4 different political parties in the last 14 years. In the same period, the U.S. has been governed by 2 different parties.

Not a single thing that may or may not have happened in Ukraine is even in the same orbit as the treatment of the Palestinian people that the U.S. - while it's crying crocodile tears over events in Kiev - has enabled through its gun-running to the Israeli mafia state. Or the known pedophile who runs Saudi Arabia, for that matter.

2011 - 93 Bahraini civilians (out of pop. of 1 million) killed by U.S.-armed GCC troops, U.S. sends out a press release expressing "concern" - obedient U.S. media run a few stories below the latest headlines on Honey Boo Boo
2014 - 24 Ukrainian "civilians" allegedly killed (out of pop. of 44 million), U.S. goes into overdrive expressing shock and horror - CNN turns to non-stop Ukraine coverage to whip Americans into a frenzy

You can't complain your neighbor didn't rake the leaves off the sidewalk while you're running a radioactive horse meat factory in your backyard.

King Hamad is a social darling. He has met with Medvedev, but Bahrain still has stronger ties to America than Russia.

You seem to miss out on the important issues. The problem isn't who is dying... it's who is supporting Russia.

GoranZ wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:Seems a lot of the civilians (at least in Kiev) don't want to be closely tied to Russia, but would rather have closer ties to the Western Part of Europe. Military action by others looks doubtful, but sanctions certainly seem to be close to happening. Story seems similar to the Egyptian protests/riots as well. Started off with peaceful protesting, and then something set it off and so far at least 100 people have been killed and many more wounded.

Thoughts on what will happen in Ukraine?

How do you know what civilians in Kiev want? I doubt you are/were there recently and probably you don't have magical crystal ball
If you getting your conclusions from Western media then you can watch Russia Today so everything will be mixed up in your head

What can happen in Ukraine?
1. The country splits(hopefully peacefully), and prorussian part will merge with Russia, while the western Ukraine will advance towards EU but its economy will suffer badly at the beginning.
2. Undecided, the country will hardly have any advance for some time.
3. Ukraine as a whole straightens its ties with Russia... or better said Russia is fully back on track.

There are no similarities between the motives in Ukrainian and Egyptian protesters... Egypt was split between Islamist and Secular while Ukraine is split between ProUkrainian and ProRussian part. So in Egypt there was religious conflict and in Ukraine its national one, and in Egypt the population with different religious believes is mixed almost everywhere opposite from Ukraine where you have 2 almost non mixed parts.

Most likely the near outcome will be 2 or 3 since EU(without any significant help of US) is by no match equal to Russia.

Only meant the comparison to Egypt by a peaceful prostest turning into a cry for a new government with violence springing up. I know Egypt was about the whole getting rid of radicals, and this is about ties to Russia.

But yeah, I take media, from the US or from Russia, with a grain of salt. But one thing for sure is, is that there is definitly something brewing in Ukraine, and it's getting pretty nasty for those involved.

According to that one guy, all these revolutions are connected.

DoomYoshi wrote:According to that one guy, all these revolutions are connected.

DaGip? Or Xtratabasco? Or jay?

muy_thaiguy wrote:

DoomYoshi wrote:According to that one guy, all these revolutions are connected.

DaGip? Or Xtratabasco? Or jay?

Joshua D. Hendrick. I didn't read his book, but I watched him on a panel:



He argues that looking at country specific revolutions creates a false sense of the world. The struggle for power is global and persistent.

saxitoxin wrote:

oVo wrote:I'm not sure what to think, but it seems that the fourteen years of rule by the current leaders may end.

Que? Ukraine has been governed by 5 different Prime Ministers from 4 different political parties in the last 14 years. In the same period, the U.S. has been governed by 2 different parties.

Not a single thing that may or may not have happened in Ukraine is even in the same orbit as the treatment of the Palestinian people that the U.S. - while it's crying crocodile tears over events in Kiev - has enabled through its gun-running to the Israeli mafia state. Or the known pedophile who runs Saudi Arabia, for that matter.

2011 - 93 Bahraini civilians (out of pop. of 1 million) killed by U.S.-armed GCC troops, U.S. sends out a press release expressing "concern" - obedient U.S. media run a few stories below the latest headlines on Honey Boo Boo
2014 - 24 Ukrainian "civilians" allegedly killed (out of pop. of 44 million), U.S. goes into overdrive expressing shock and horror - CNN turns to non-stop Ukraine coverage to whip Americans into a frenzy

You can't complain your neighbor didn't rake the leaves off the sidewalk while you're running a radioactive horse meat factory in your backyard.

whoo......Saxi, easy boy

The only reason why the Ukraine matters to anyone other than Ukranians, in one easy picture-

GoranZ wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:Seems a lot of the civilians (at least in Kiev) don't want to be closely tied to Russia, but would rather have closer ties to the Western Part of Europe. Military action by others looks doubtful, but sanctions certainly seem to be close to happening. Story seems similar to the Egyptian protests/riots as well. Started off with peaceful protesting, and then something set it off and so far at least 100 people have been killed and many more wounded.

Thoughts on what will happen in Ukraine?

How do you know what civilians in Kiev want? I doubt you are/were there recently and probably you don't have magical crystal ball
If you getting your conclusions from Western media then you can watch Russia Today so everything will be mixed up in your head

What can happen in Ukraine?
1. The country splits(hopefully peacefully), and prorussian part will merge with Russia, while the western Ukraine will advance towards EU but its economy will suffer badly at the beginning.
2. Undecided, the country will hardly have any advance for some time.
3. Ukraine as a whole straightens its ties with Russia... or better said Russia is fully back on track.

There are no similarities between the motives in Ukrainian and Egyptian protesters... Egypt was split between Islamist and Secular while Ukraine is split between ProUkrainian and ProRussian part. So in Egypt there was religious conflict and in Ukraine its national one, and in Egypt the population with different religious believes is mixed almost everywhere opposite from Ukraine where you have 2 almost non mixed parts.

Most likely the near outcome will be 2 or 3 since EU(without any significant help of US) is by no match equal to Russia.

So the country is politically split (read sphere of influence) more or less east and west?

patches70 wrote:The only reason why the Ukraine matters to anyone other than Ukranians, in one easy picture-

Did you have express permission to reproduce that map?????

You can't complain your neighbor didn't rake the leaves off the sidewalk while you're running a radioactive horse meat factory in your backyard.

Why? I hate messy sidewalks.

If anyone remembers back in 2004 when Ukraine had a "revolution" (the so-called "Orange Revolution" which led to a U.S.-approved government seizing power via street protests, only to be immediately defeated at the next election), the Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko had a poignant quote ...

These aren’t “color” revolutions—they’re banditry under the guise of democracy . . .this banditry is imposed and paid for from outside, is carried out to benefit individuals who don’t care about their countries and peoples, and interests only those who have imperialist ambitions and are trying to conquer new markets.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

The capitalist system relies on production begetting consumption begetting production. Corporate profits have to continually grow or GDP doesn't grow, and if GDP doesn't grow the system collapses. In the face of stagnating population, the only recourse is to open new markets for export and consumption.

All these people who cry about the 1% so happily and blindly march off to cheer the one-percent's bought and paid-for revolutions when it's neatly packaged and marketed with a false David vs. Goliath storyline, as in Iraq or Libya or Syria. It's been two weeks since the U.S. ASOS was recorded discussing who the U.S. was going to choose to run Ukraine when it was all done. Any legitimate, semi-intelligent protesters would have packed up and gone home once that recording was released. The only ones who didn't are idiots and professionals; the ones who are getting their meal tickets punched by throwing molotov cocktails. They're not civilians, they're armed combatants and should be treated as such by the police and army.

How much does pro-protester pay? Radio active horse meat is not selling as well since Britain made IKEA stop using it in meatballs.

@sax I imagine a Ukrainian who opposes strengthened ties to Russia and the current regime in general wouldn't mind US support that much. Even if the US government did 'choose Ukraine's next president' (however that would work), Ukraine is a democracy and would be able to vote said individual out once they had fulfilled their role as the person who leads Ukraine into the EU. In the mean time, the pro-EU faction need a big friend if they're going to stand against both their government and the government of Russia. If not the US then who?

Russia's income per capita is over 14,000. Ukraine's is somewhere around 4,000.

Waiting to see if they call up the soldiers. Can get a lot done while the Olympics are still hittin.

mrswdk wrote:Ukraine is a democracy and would be able to vote said individual out once they had fulfilled their role as the person who leads Ukraine into the EU.

Exactly, Ukraine is a democracy and it's already had (2012) elections that were monitored by the ODIHR and those elections put in power a government that decided not to affiliate with the EU. These are anti-democracy "protests."

saxitoxin wrote:If anyone remembers back in 2004 when Ukraine had a "revolution" (the so-called "Orange Revolution" which led to a U.S.-approved government seizing power via street protests, only to be immediately defeated at the next election), the Belarus president Alexander Lukashenko had a poignant quote ...

These aren’t “color” revolutions—they’re banditry under the guise of democracy . . .this banditry is imposed and paid for from outside, is carried out to benefit individuals who don’t care about their countries and peoples, and interests only those who have imperialist ambitions and are trying to conquer new markets.

All these people who cry about the 1% so happily and blindly march off to cheer the one-percent's bought and paid-for revolutions when it's neatly packaged and marketed with a false David vs. Goliath storyline, as in Iraq or Libya or Syria. It's been two weeks since the U.S. ASOS was recorded discussing who the U.S. was going to choose to run Ukraine when it was all done. Any legitimate, semi-intelligent protesters would have packed up and gone home once that recording was released. The only ones who didn't are idiots and professionals; the ones who are getting their meal tickets punched by throwing molotov cocktails.

Hey, they gotta make a living somehow.

You'd like Charles Tilly and his dual-power thesis. Gordon Tullock and his "Paradox of Rebellion" is another fun one to apply to stuff like Ukraine. Long story short, revolutions aren't popular uprisings. It's just inside group v. inside group with the help of a few friends.

For the record, I don't support the actions of the slack jaws who are out 'capturing' Ukrainian policemen and breaking into Ukrainian government buildings. The Ukrainian government is right to resist such attempts at intimidation. That said, I don't believe voting for a representative once every 4/5 years means that your government has licence to do whatever it pleases.

In Switzerland, a referendum to cap immigration just passed despite being opposed by both the government and business leaders. That is what true democracy looks like. A true democracy would put an issue like joining the EU to a referendum, not just act on the whims of a ruling family.

mrswdk wrote:That said, I don't believe voting for a representative once every 4/5 years means that your government has licence to do whatever it pleases.

Once a nation falls to the U.S. the first thing that happens is a new constitution is introduced (see Poland, Iraq, Hungary, etc.). These constitutions invariably include layers upon layers of so-called "independent" boards and commissions and insulated constitutional courts comprised of "leaders of civil society," in reality unelected bodies that serve to entrench American interests throughout the country and lace its political order in such a way that all future governments are bound in action. This is, in fact, the same way the U.S. operates. In his 1937 book America's Families Ferdinand Lundberg, which is otherwise a bunch of nonsense, otherwise saliently noted about the U.S. constitution ...

The document provided for a government of ostensible checks and balances (but really, of all checks and no balances), and at the same time guaranteed the utmost freedom, unchecked and unbalanced, to propertied interests. In short, the government itself was tightly laced into a strait jacket, while private economic enterprise was given unprecedented freedom to establish and develop a strong informal government outside the bounds of formal government - a de facto rgime beyond and behind the government de jure. The result is a modern government that is about five times as inflexible, and much less democratic, than the government of Great Britain.

BigBallinStalin wrote:revolutions aren't popular uprisings.

That's true in many cases, but not all. The Boxer Rebellion springs to mind.