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The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

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The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:43 am

Conspiracy theorists are often outright dismissed as nuts. In this case, I agree.

But who exactly am I calling nuts?

Here is a brief version of the official conspiracy theory:




36% of Americans believe this story, the same percent that still believe Saddam had WMDs.

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I get that these numbers will be disputed, I choose them specifically so they would be. My hope is that someone will post the wiki numbers or some low ball number. Which is eventually where I'll try to take this thread.

If there are those willing to fast-forward this, I'm happy to as well.

Give me any numbers. I'm good. I'll take them undisputed. Numbers matter in US policy is the point I'm getting to.

You can have low numbers, such as support for the invasion of Syria after they crossed the redline. This story was sold with a chemical attack I don't think we ever heard who carried out. It was sold by every major candidate of the century as ok, and Obama had the power to go in alone. But we have numbers and numbers are barely hitting double digits in support. So Obama carries on with the conflict indirectly.

The media offers "balanced" coverage. All those in favor vs an equal number against are represented and the media makes all kinds of side stories.

Of course this isn't a balanced issue. Yet the meager minority voice is heard extremely loudly, and the minority vote gets to maintain its campaign regardless, it just doesn't get to expand.

Well Syria has been on the radar since it was declared a part of the axis of evil in 2002. Our Nobel prize winning president has added (created?) it's current situation. And at some point, perhaps with the right change in perception by the public, an irreversible policy will be carried out.

In other words, a situation can be agitated until through the agitation, an event can be sold to the public that will let the government carry out its intentions in a swoop.

Let's examine some of the "change" promised and yet to occur:

Transparency
Oversight
War on drugs
Torture
Surveillance
Bank reform

The major change that occurred Obamacare, actually rewarded those causing the problems.

As such, nothing really changed except perception. Now it's the democrats, the opponents of these very same policies under Bush, who are supporting them.

If it's two camps, or two plus the minor dissenting camp, we are spoonfed perception by those who received corporate backing from those who will benefit from the policies.

Why the number of people who believe this or that about 9/11 don't matter is because the other numbers which are far more important matter.

Whether the government orchestrated 9/11 or just let it happen, or were so grossly incompetent that it is equal to letting it happen (which are really the only three options), doesn't matter.

What matters is how they, in conjunction with the media, used it maximize the profits of their corporate sponsors. What matters is how they used it to maximize their power over their citizens and the world.

Long after Osama is dead and gone, long after the Soviets fell, long after Obama's peace prize, we are spending $700bn annually on war with no end in sight.

My question to anyone is: knowing that an event can alter perception guided by the media and government, how are you able to make informed decisions about the future and have them implemented?
Last edited by _sabotage_ on Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Symmetry on Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:45 am

Erm, isn't that poll saying that 36% of respondents don't believe in the conspiracy theories?
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:50 am

I have a hard time believing 58% of people believe the US fucked their own shit up
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Symmetry on Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:56 am

Army of GOD wrote:I have a hard time believing 58% of people believe the US fucked their own shit up


To be fair, the poll was pretty poorly worded. It's unsurprising that it would draw conspiracy minded people, and it would also draw people who simply think that the US government was secretive about the attacks.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:08 pm

The answers suck too. One could believe that the government left many questions unanswered and also believe there is no conspiracy theory.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:32 pm

Ah, but TGD, the official story is an unproven theory about a conspiracy.

That is, if you believe the governments version, you are still believing a conspiracy theory.

Wiki

However, a "White Paper" by the U.S. government, documenting the case against bin Laden and the Al Qaeda organization concerning the September 11 attacks, publicly promised by Secretary of State Colin Powell, was never published.

In 2006, Rex Tomb of the FBI's public affairs unit said, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11". So far, the U.S. Justice Department has not sought formal criminal charges against bin Laden (or anyone but Zacarias Moussaoui) for the 9/11 attacks. This has provided what some call "fodder for conspiracy theorists who think the U.S. government or another power was behind the Sept. 11 hijackings." Two separate indictments were made against bin Laden by two separate grand juries in 1998 for two separate terrorist acts, though no indictments have been filed against him for the events of 9/11.

After spending $2 trillion directly attributable to 9/11, there was never even enough evidence to consider him wanted for 9/11.

None of his confession tapes have been authenticated and several sources have called them fake. So within minutes, we have his name being thrown about and 14 years later we have nothing.
Last edited by _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:50 pm

thegreekdog wrote:The answers suck too. One could believe that the government left many questions unanswered and also believe there is no conspiracy theory.


Similarly, I might think the government was involved and also believe that this doesn't somehow imply added "disrespect" for the victims.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Symmetry on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:51 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Well Syria has been on the radar since it was declared a part of the axis of evil in 2002.


Are you sure about that?

Generally people edit their posts to correct mistakes, not add extra ones.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:53 pm

Symmetry wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:Well Syria has been on the radar since it was declared a part of the axis of evil in 2002.


Are you sure about that?

Generally people edit their posts to correct mistakes, not add extra ones.


Wiki

On May 6, 2002, then-Undersecretary of State John R. Bolton gave a speech entitled "Beyond the Axis of Evil". In it he added three more nations to be grouped with the already mentioned rogue states: Cuba, Libya, and Syria. The criteria for inclusion in this grouping were: "state sponsors of terrorism that are pursuing or who have the potential to pursue weapons of mass destruction (WMD) or have the capability to do so in violation of their treaty obligations".

Should I find a more reliable source?
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:57 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Ah, but TGD, the official story is an unproven theory about a conspiracy.

That is, if you believe the governments version, you are still believing a conspiracy theory.


How are we defining conspiracy theory?
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:59 pm

Conspiracy theory: a plan by several men that is suspected but unproven.

Or any dictionary definition you care to offer.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Symmetry on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:00 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:Well Syria has been on the radar since it was declared a part of the axis of evil in 2002.


Are you sure about that?

Generally people edit their posts to correct mistakes, not add extra ones.


Wiki

On May 6, 2002, then-Undersecretary of State John R. Bolton gave a speech entitled "Beyond the Axis of Evil". In it he added three more nations to be grouped with the already mentioned rogue states: Cuba, Libya, and Syria. The criteria for inclusion in this grouping were: "state sponsors of terrorism that are pursuing or who have the potential to pursue weapons of mass destruction (WMD) or have the capability to do so in violation of their treaty obligations".

Should I find a more reliable source?


Given that you've taken that from a page wiki itself has flagged as being un-sourced and not referenced, sure.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:01 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Conspiracy theory: a plan by several men that is suspected but unproven.

Or any dictionary definition you care to offer.


So every theory about 9/11 is a conspiracy theory?

Here is your chosen source's definition (Wiki): A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:02 pm

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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:04 pm

I'll roll with that TGD.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:10 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:I'll roll with that TGD.


So how is the government's explanation "an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation?"
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:15 pm

Because it's a proposition. They propose it to explain the events of 9/11. If they prove it, it is no longer a proposition.

We have a burden of proof requirement.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:18 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Because it's a proposition. They propose it to explain the events of 9/11. If they prove it, it is no longer a proposition.

We have a burden of proof requirement.


I put a certain phrase in red type as that is the phrase where I think there's an issue with your proposition. The US government did not accuse anyone of covering anything up through secret/deliberate planning or action.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:20 pm

So you are saying they are accusing Al-Qaeda of publicly planning 9/11?

I know you are a lawyer so I don't need to explain the use of the word "or" between caused and covered-up.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:42 pm

As co-director of Rules for Good Argumentation on CC (BBS and I were appointed by TGD), I hereby decree that arguments about the definition of the word "conspiracy" are stupid and should be discontinued.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:44 pm

Have we so quickly arrived at the oh shit moment? You know, where people realize that they in order to say anything productive would be required to substantiate their conspiracy theory as stated by the government?

This does not end well for you. To substantiate the official theory you need to break the laws of physics, explain why 70+ cameras at the Pentagon don't show a plane, explain why after intercepting hundreds of flights in 2001, none were intercepted on 9/11. You'd need to explain why, since all the evidence is in government hands, none has been presented as evidence for their theory.

Black boxes.
Methods used to determine WTC 7 could break the laws of physics.
The material from the buildings, which was immediately shipped to China as scrap (breaking the law).
The videos from security cameras facing the Pentagon.
The funding and links of the accused.
Any videos showing any of the suspects getting on any of the planes.
Any evidence recovered since showing anything.

The governments official narrative goes, you saw it with your own eyes.

Yes it's a sad road to travel, having an insane unprovable theory. But let me make it perfectly clear, if you believe the official conspiracy theory, you are nuts.

Next, if you have been in this thread and not challenged anything successfully, but did little sneak attacks and then ran for dear life, I don't expect to hear you taking stances that assume 9/11 was done according to your conspiracy theory in the future.

Here's your chance to have a valid opinion on a wide range of issues. Make a reasonable argument as to why your theory is better than others, and I will by happy to post according to the premises you have set reasonably forth.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:47 pm

That's very kind of you Mets, but TGD wanted to define it, and I was pleased to let him. That the official theory of 9/11 is a conspiracy theory has been established.
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby thegreekdog on Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:32 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:So you are saying they are accusing Al-Qaeda of publicly planning 9/11?

I know you are a lawyer so I don't need to explain the use of the word "or" between caused and covered-up.


I'm saying the United States government has not accused anyone of "having caused or coverd up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation."
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby Symmetry on Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:47 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
_sabotage_ wrote:So you are saying they are accusing Al-Qaeda of publicly planning 9/11?

I know you are a lawyer so I don't need to explain the use of the word "or" between caused and covered-up.


I'm saying the United States government has not accused anyone of "having caused or coverd up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation."


Bin Laden's son in law was accused and convicted of conspiracy by a federal court,

More than a dozen years after the Sept. 11 attacks, a man who came to speak for Osama bin Laden in a series of impassioned videotaped messages that praised the attacks and promised more, was convicted by a federal jury on Wednesday of conspiring to kill Americans and of other terrorism charges.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/27/nyregion/bin-ladens-son-in-law-is-convicted-in-terror-trial.html?_r=0
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Re: The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

Postby _sabotage_ on Wed Jan 28, 2015 4:03 pm

Sym,

And?

TGD,

Are you saying the government is not holding Osama and the 19 all edged hijackers accountable for 9/11 through unofficial channels?
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