Conquer Club

A decent enough article for those of you who have ever entertained the notion of Russia and China forming some sort of anti-US alliance.

http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/china-an ... ed-states/

Basically, if the US/West keeps pushing Russia and China then they may end up getting friendly with each other as a defense mechanism, but otherwise they don't really have any common goals, visions or interests and so would not form a partnership organically.

i.e. if what you are concerned about is a Chinese-Russian new world order emerging, then stop trying to clamp down on Russia and China.

Interesting. Here's a Russian perspective on this, which is similar to the article you posted, but much more optimistic that such an alliance will develop.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/was ... ance-10843

I don't foresee it happening. Plus, alliances are silly since wars are silly.


--Andy

macbone wrote:Interesting. Here's a Russian perspective on this, which is similar to the article you posted, but much more optimistic that such an alliance will develop.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/was ... ance-10843

That's because Russia is increasingly becoming the bitch in the relationship, and therefore has more to gain from such a pairing.

Its Russia-China alliance, not other way around as you portrait

mrswdk wrote:

macbone wrote:Interesting. Here's a Russian perspective on this, which is similar to the article you posted, but much more optimistic that such an alliance will develop.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/was ... ance-10843

That's because Russia is increasingly becoming the bitch in the relationship, and therefore has more to gain from such a pairing.

Its Russia-China alliance, not other way around
Russia has something that nether Europe or China have, and that is abundance of oil/gas. Without oil/gas Chinese economy will cannibalize it self within 6 months.
If the West enforces sanctions to China as it is doing now on Russia, China will collapse very fast if it doesn't have alternative ways to get the resources it needs.

Conclusion... You need Russia more then you want to admit it

GoranZ wrote:Its Russia-China alliance, not other way around as you portrait

mrswdk wrote:

macbone wrote:Interesting. Here's a Russian perspective on this, which is similar to the article you posted, but much more optimistic that such an alliance will develop.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/was ... ance-10843

That's because Russia is increasingly becoming the bitch in the relationship, and therefore has more to gain from such a pairing.

Its Russia-China alliance, not other way around
Russia has something that nether Europe or China have, and that is abundance of oil/gas. Without oil/gas Chinese economy will cannibalize it self within 6 months.
If the West enforces sanctions to China as it is doing now on Russia, China will collapse very fast if it doesn't have alternative ways to get the resources it needs.

Conclusion... You need Russia more then you want to admit it

There's a reason why China is trying to expand in the international waters in South East Asia, because it's widely believed that there are large pockets of oil and other natural resources there. In the meantime, yeah. But they are looking to get their own steady supply of oil and natural gas.

mrswdk wrote:

macbone wrote:Interesting. Here's a Russian perspective on this, which is similar to the article you posted, but much more optimistic that such an alliance will develop.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/was ... ance-10843

That's because Russia is increasingly becoming the bitch in the relationship, and therefore has more to gain from such a pairing.

Yeah, Russia has more to gain than China, which makes me suspect China wouldn't be overly eager.


--Andy

I think Russia and China should ally with the weasel.

I was kind of hoping the weasel attacked Putin next.

GoranZ wrote:Its Russia-China alliance, not other way around
Russia has something that nether Europe or China have, and that is abundance of oil/gas. Without oil/gas Chinese economy will cannibalize it self within 6 months.

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/6101885/mid ... -to-the-us

Only 7.8% of China's oil imports come from Russia. And in any case I have a hard time believing that Russia would ever threaten to cut off its oil and gas exports to China, seeing as it recently agreed to sell all its gas to China in return for 6.20 Chinese Yuan and a signed photograph of Foreign Minister Wang Yi. They clearly need the money.

If the West enforces sanctions to China as it is doing now on Russia, China will collapse very fast if it doesn't have alternative ways to get the resources it needs.

lol. The only way the West could harm China is by freezing up their Chinese imports, but they would never do that because they'd be screwing themselves too.

Sorry bub, China is just more important than Russia.

Without Oil/Gas only means that China will figure out how to do and make things without Oil/Gas instead of like Westerners who would just let their economies collapse.

(Also, China might start invasions of other countries for the resources...what would you like? World War 3?)

mrswdk wrote:

GoranZ wrote:Its Russia-China alliance, not other way around
Russia has something that nether Europe or China have, and that is abundance of oil/gas. Without oil/gas Chinese economy will cannibalize it self within 6 months.

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/6101885/mid ... -to-the-us

Only 7.8% of China's oil imports come from Russia. And in any case I have a hard time believing that Russia would ever threaten to cut off its oil and gas exports to China, seeing as it recently agreed to sell all its gas to China in return for 6.20 Chinese Yuan and a signed photograph of Foreign Minister Wang Yi. They clearly need the money.

As you have noticed from the previous period, middle east does whats US is telling it... so basically having backup link from Russia is probably one of the best way to secure Chinese Economical success for very long time.

mrswdk wrote:

If the West enforces sanctions to China as it is doing now on Russia, China will collapse very fast if it doesn't have alternative ways to get the resources it needs.

lol. The only way the West could harm China is by freezing up their Chinese imports, but they would never do that because they'd be screwing themselves too.

Sorry bub, China is just more important than Russia.

Ha... things might drastically change in 5 years with the development of 3D printers... with them Chinese hands might not be needed as they are needed now

GoranZ wrote:

mrswdk wrote:lol. The only way the West could harm China is by freezing up their Chinese imports, but they would never do that because they'd be screwing themselves too.

Sorry bub, China is just more important than Russia.

Ha... things might drastically change in 5 years with the development of 3D printers... with them Chinese hands might not be needed as they are needed now

The government is already pushing the re-balancing of the economy towards domestic consumption. China has no intention of remaining the world's factory.

To be honest, I see it more probable that there might be a larger Russian-Turkish cooperation. Erdogan has already expressed interests of joining SCO due to increasing disagreement with the west. And both of them know how much influence they would have if they had strong mutual cooperation.

I think Russian-chinese relationships will always be somewhat iffy. Though the US seems prepared to push Russia completely in the arms of China, europe is not and it is europe that matters to Russia not the US.

As for China, it is said that Mongolia in addition to China's own domestic production has sufficient resources to supply all of China for years if necessary.

Looks like South America is the next battlefield for Russia-China alliance and US. If successful US will be in serious trouble.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... orld-order

GoranZ wrote:Looks like South America is the next battlefield for Russia-China alliance and US. If successful US will be in serious trouble.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... orld-order

They will not be. Read and visit them soon. Even if you are from China...visit them and drop your petty ideologies.

World War III will be started by those peoples who first revealed the light (the divine wisdom or intelligence) in the other old countries (India, China, Islamic Nations, Africa.) The United States will be destroyed, land and people, by atomic bombs and radioactivity. Only the Hopis and their homeland will be preserved as an oasis to which refugees will flee. Bomb shelters are a fallacy. “It is only materialistic people who seek to make shelters. Those who are at peace in their hearts already are in the great shelter of life. There is no shelter for evil. Those who take no part in the making of world division by ideology are ready to resume life in another world, be they Black, White, Red, or Yellow race. They are all one, brothers.

http://www.welcomehome.org/rainbow/prophecy/hopi1.html

GoranZ wrote:Looks like South America is the next battlefield for Russia-China alliance and US. If successful US will be in serious trouble.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... orld-order

There is no Russia-China alliance. If America and Russia want to keep playing their Cold War games then that's their deal, but don't expect China to participate.

mrswdk wrote:

GoranZ wrote:Looks like South America is the next battlefield for Russia-China alliance and US. If successful US will be in serious trouble.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... orld-order

There is no Russia-China alliance. If America and Russia want to keep playing their Cold War games then that's their deal, but don't expect China to participate.

US main goal is China, not Russia , so regardless if you want or not China is part of the new world order.

GoranZ wrote:

mrswdk wrote:

GoranZ wrote:Looks like South America is the next battlefield for Russia-China alliance and US. If successful US will be in serious trouble.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... orld-order

There is no Russia-China alliance. If America and Russia want to keep playing their Cold War games then that's their deal, but don't expect China to participate.

US main goal is China, not Russia , so regardless if you want or not China is part of the new world order.

Yeah, well, if the US tries to turn it into some sort of rivalry in which they are seeking to undermine and hem in China then they are going to end up pretty red-faced.

Just from simple observations from Russia and China;
China is more about business and money making (Communist in name only, Capitalist in practice, though still a highly centralized government, but one that functions more as a business than anything), so as long as it doesn't interfere with them making $$$, they don't really care.

Russia, if they were business oriented, they would have long ago backed out of Ukraine. They are more about re-establishing the old Soviet Empire than anything (or at least returning to that level of power).

So, yeah. If their interests aline, yeah. But I don't see China sticking their neck out very far for Russia. Pay some lip service, maybe a few minor things, but China is looking out for China 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

mrswdk wrote:

GoranZ wrote:

mrswdk wrote:

GoranZ wrote:Looks like South America is the next battlefield for Russia-China alliance and US. If successful US will be in serious trouble.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-new ... orld-order

There is no Russia-China alliance. If America and Russia want to keep playing their Cold War games then that's their deal, but don't expect China to participate.

US main goal is China, not Russia , so regardless if you want or not China is part of the new world order.

Yeah, well, if the US tries to turn it into some sort of rivalry in which they are seeking to undermine and hem in China then they are going to end up pretty red-faced.

From my point of view Chinese only weakness is lack of oil and gas... But with the latest agreements with Russia China is securing them on a long run. Having pipes directly from Russia helps China a lot and you guys wont have to worry about the bases in Sri Lanka or what can happen around Singapore Strait. After all Chinese base in Sri Lanka main purpose is safe delivery of oil and gas from Arabian peninsula. Don't tell this to our Western friends they think you guys want to Invade the Indian Ocean

muy_thaiguy wrote:Just from simple observations from Russia and China;
China is more about business and money making (Communist in name only, Capitalist in practice, though still a highly centralized government, but one that functions more as a business than anything), so as long as it doesn't interfere with them making $$$, they don't really care.

In this case business dictates what will China do, not CCP. And business is aggressive

muy_thaiguy wrote:Russia, if they were business oriented, they would have long ago backed out of Ukraine.

1000 times repeated lie can only become truth if you are Nazi, after all it was their philosophy.
If you dont know around half of Ukraine's population is Russian speaking population, so you can expect nuclear war if West want Ukraine. And 25 years Ukraine was receiving 150$ cheaper gas from Russia, that's huge business investment made by Russia to just give up on it.

muy_thaiguy wrote:They are more about re-establishing the old Soviet Empire than anything (or at least returning to that level of power).

There never was no such thing as Soviet Empire, except in your dreams(which are not our concerns).
Russia doesn't want to reestablish Soviet Union, its too expensive for them but you would have know that if you were business oriented person. Clearly you are not.

GoranZ wrote:From my point of view Chinese only weakness is lack of oil and gas... But with the latest agreements with Russia China is securing them on a long run. Having pipes directly from Russia helps China a lot and you guys wont have to worry about the bases in Sri Lanka or what can happen around Singapore Strait. After all Chinese base in Sri Lanka main purpose is safe delivery of oil and gas from Arabian peninsula. Don't tell this to our Western friends they think you guys want to Invade the Indian Ocean

We already know from earlier in this thread that China only gets a small fraction of its oil from Russia (the Middle East and Africa contributing something like 60-70% of China's oil, hence the importance of naval trade routes that you mention).

GoranZ wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:Russia, if they were business oriented, they would have long ago backed out of Ukraine.

1000 times repeated lie can only become truth if you are Nazi, after all it was their philosophy.

So, pulling out the "Oh, you Nazi because they used some sort of political tool!" line? I swear, it's like talking to one of those automated response things. You can practically predict what they will say.

Oh, and FYI, EVERY country, including yours, Russia, the US, Canada, etc uses propaganda. And for the record, I usually go with VICE news, who actually goes to these places and interviews the people there.

If you dont know around half of Ukraine's population is Russian speaking population, so you can expect nuclear war if West want Ukraine.

You're sounding a lot like fat boy Kim Jung Il with all your talks about using nuclear weapons. Also, Ukraine wants Ukraine. They are a sovereign country. You make it sound like they are a part of Russia.

And 25 years Ukraine was receiving 150$ cheaper gas from Russia, that's huge business investment made by Russia to just give up on it.

They haven't. They're actually charging Western Ukraine for what the rebels in East Ukraine are using.

muy_thaiguy wrote:They are more about re-establishing the old Soviet Empire than anything (or at least returning to that level of power).

There never was no such thing as Soviet Empire, except in your dreams(which are not our concerns).

Soviet Union in name, Soviet Empire in practice and actuality. And for awhile, it really wasn't much different than when Russia was still ruled by the Czars/Tsars. Just different people in charge (que the typical BS line you've been fed in all forms since childhood). But I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you, as you're already sucked into that line of thinking. Anything I post, you'll just call it "Western Lies" or some BS like that.
[qoute]Russia doesn't want to reestablish Soviet Union, its too expensive for them but you would have know that if you were business oriented person. Clearly you are not.[/quote]So, retaking (invading) Crimea, "supporting rebels" in East Ukraine, threatening the Baltic States, threaten nuclear war, etc, all at levels not seen SINCE the Soviet Empire (hey, you can spout your Soviet/Russian fed nonsense, I'll say what I want), than what do you call it? Sunshine and daisies?

muy_thaiguy wrote:

GoranZ wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:Russia, if they were business oriented, they would have long ago backed out of Ukraine.

1000 times repeated lie can only become truth if you are Nazi, after all it was their philosophy.

So, pulling out the "Oh, you Nazi because they used some sort of political tool!" line? I swear, it's like talking to one of those automated response things. You can practically predict what they will say.

Russians are defending their business investments Nazi lover... After all they have invested in Ukraine a lot.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Oh, and FYI, EVERY country, including yours, Russia, the US, Canada, etc uses propaganda.

The problem for you is that you are only reading US propaganda, and you have difficulties to determine truth from fiction.

muy_thaiguy wrote:And for the record, I usually go with VICE news, who actually goes to these places and interviews the people there.

You got to be kidding rite. VICE news interview what they want and that is not the truth... Their interviews in Crimea were ultimate failure.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

If you dont know around half of Ukraine's population is Russian speaking population, so you can expect nuclear war if West want Ukraine.

You're sounding a lot like fat boy Kim Jung Il with all your talks about using nuclear weapons. Also, Ukraine wants Ukraine. They are a sovereign country. You make it sound like they are a part of Russia.

Current Ukraine is sovereign country? Take your meds before you write here... Undemocratic rebellion supported by EU/US, undemocratic elections, half of the country doesn't recognize the current government... I guess that is the definition of sovereign country according to CIA books.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

And 25 years Ukraine was receiving 150$ cheaper gas from Russia, that's huge business investment made by Russia to just give up on it.

They haven't. They're actually charging Western Ukraine for what the rebels in East Ukraine are using.

Western Ukraine is paying something? Western Ukraine is currently the most underdeveloped region in Ukraine, but how can you know that when you are only reading CIA news.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:They are more about re-establishing the old Soviet Empire than anything (or at least returning to that level of power).

There never was no such thing as Soviet Empire, except in your dreams(which are not our concerns).

Soviet Union in name, Soviet Empire in practice and actuality. And for awhile, it really wasn't much different than when Russia was still ruled by the Czars/Tsars. Just different people in charge (que the typical BS line you've been fed in all forms since childhood). But I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you, as you're already sucked into that line of thinking. Anything I post, you'll just call it "Western Lies" or some BS like that.

According to your logic United States of America is the same as American Empire... IQ level negative

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Russia doesn't want to reestablish Soviet Union, its too expensive for them but you would have know that if you were business oriented person. Clearly you are not.

So, retaking (invading) Crimea, "supporting rebels" in East Ukraine, threatening the Baltic States, threaten nuclear war, etc, all at levels not seen SINCE the Soviet Empire (hey, you can spout your Soviet/Russian fed nonsense, I'll say what I want), than what do you call it? Sunshine and daisies?

-Baltic states have an option to give Russians proper rights, nothing more, nothing less. Alternative is well known.
-Its liberation of Crimea
-Its support for liberation of East Ukraine from western oppression
-US has already used nukes on civilian population... Are you afraid that you might live threw the same faith as those that you nuked? You should be.

GoranZ wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:

GoranZ wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:Russia, if they were business oriented, they would have long ago backed out of Ukraine.

1000 times repeated lie can only become truth if you are Nazi, after all it was their philosophy.

So, pulling out the "Oh, you Nazi because they used some sort of political tool!" line? I swear, it's like talking to one of those automated response things. You can practically predict what they will say.

Russians are defending their business investments Nazi lover... After all they have invested in Ukraine a lot.

Yeah, keep saying that. Say it loud enough, maybe Putin will give you a medal.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Oh, and FYI, EVERY country, including yours, Russia, the US, Canada, etc uses propaganda.

The problem for you is that you are only reading US propaganda, and you have difficulties to determine truth from fiction.

So, VICE news is "US Propaganda" when they actually go to these places and interview the people affected/taking part in these things?
Also, as opposed to a media that is almost completely controlled by the Russian Kremlin, with only a handful otherwise? Not to mention the US government, outside of troop positions in combat, has no say in media.

muy_thaiguy wrote:And for the record, I usually go with VICE news, who actually goes to these places and interviews the people there.

You got to be kidding rite. VICE news interview what they want and that is not the truth... Their interviews in Crimea were ultimate failure.

Because they don't show the Russian government as the "Beacon of Hope" they make themselves out to be?

muy_thaiguy wrote:

If you dont know around half of Ukraine's population is Russian speaking population, so you can expect nuclear war if West want Ukraine.

You're sounding a lot like fat boy Kim Jung Il with all your talks about using nuclear weapons. Also, Ukraine wants Ukraine. They are a sovereign country. You make it sound like they are a part of Russia.

Current Ukraine is sovereign country? Take your meds before you write here... Undemocratic rebellion supported by EU/US, undemocratic elections, half of the country doesn't recognize the current government... I guess that is the definition of sovereign country according to CIA books.

Last I checked, the US has not even sent weapons, whereas all the proof of Russian interference (videos, testimonies, Russian civilians receiving the bodies of their kids who have battle markings all over over their bodies, the civilian airplane that was blown out of the sky by the rebels, etc) all points to Russia actually interfering with Ukraine.
Oh, and keep drinking that lemonade that Russia is giving you, your doing a good job of being a drone of theirs.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

And 25 years Ukraine was receiving 150$ cheaper gas from Russia, that's huge business investment made by Russia to just give up on it.

They haven't. They're actually charging Western Ukraine for what the rebels in East Ukraine are using.

Western Ukraine is paying something? Western Ukraine is currently the most underdeveloped region in Ukraine, but how can you know that when you are only reading CIA news.

You read more than what I wrote. I said Russia is charging Ukraine for what the rebels in the East are using. I did not say Ukraine was paying (since it was otherwise shut off).

muy_thaiguy wrote:

muy_thaiguy wrote:They are more about re-establishing the old Soviet Empire than anything (or at least returning to that level of power).

There never was no such thing as Soviet Empire, except in your dreams(which are not our concerns).

Soviet Union in name, Soviet Empire in practice and actuality. And for awhile, it really wasn't much different than when Russia was still ruled by the Czars/Tsars. Just different people in charge (que the typical BS line you've been fed in all forms since childhood). But I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince you, as you're already sucked into that line of thinking. Anything I post, you'll just call it "Western Lies" or some BS like that.

According to your logic United States of America is the same as American Empire... IQ level negative

You make it seem like I'm denying the US is an empire. I'm not. I'm also not the one denying that the Soviet Union was an empire in all but name.

muy_thaiguy wrote:

Russia doesn't want to reestablish Soviet Union, its too expensive for them but you would have know that if you were business oriented person. Clearly you are not.

So, retaking (invading) Crimea, "supporting rebels" in East Ukraine, threatening the Baltic States, threaten nuclear war, etc, all at levels not seen SINCE the Soviet Empire (hey, you can spout your Soviet/Russian fed nonsense, I'll say what I want), than what do you call it? Sunshine and daisies?

-Baltic states have an option to give Russians proper rights, nothing more, nothing less. Alternative is well known.
-Its liberation of Crimea
-Its support for liberation of East Ukraine from western oppression
-US has already used nukes on civilian population... Are you afraid that you might live threw the same faith as those that you nuked? You should be.

[/quote]
1. There's always more than 1 alternative. Like if people don't like where they live, they are free to move.
2. "Liberation"? Ever since Russia annexed it, the Russian government moved in and took over a lot of formerly private businesses. And they only took it so they have a warm water port.
3. Who "oppressed" who? You claim that I'm ignorant, yet you willingly lap up whatever Russia's government says like a druggie that can't get enough heroin. The Ukrainians are defending their country from Russia and Russian backed rebels (after ousting a highly corrupt President that was moving to closer ties with Russia when many in Ukraine did not want that).
4. The a-bombs? Weapons, that pale in comparison to weapons today? Like comparing a firecracker to TNT. And that was before it was understood of the long term consequences, and in a time of extreme desperation. And why they haven't been used since. And for good reason. You seem to be as nuclear threatening happy as Putin or fat boy in North Korea without understanding the long term consequences of it. That's a big problem I have with your "oh, but you should know that Russia will nuke you!" like it's the same as a spanking or something.

You keep claiming I am "ignorant" and "full of Western lies" all the while towing the Russian Kremlin line and believing everything they say without even thinking outside the box. Not to mention your "claims" against me. Tell me then, what do you know about me, where I live, etc? And please don't give me any of that Russian propaganda crap. It's about as reliable now as it was 50 years ago.