Conquer Club

Try not to be too long winded....so I personally manufacture my product (20 years now)....all the materials that go into it are made in USA.....mine is the absolute BEST in its very small market niche, proven, guaranteed, blah blah blah. NOT because it's made here but because I am such an anal retentive f*ck about it Can't tell you how many offers I've had for overseas production / better profit / blah blah blah. On the flip side, I can't tell you how many customers LOVE my dedication, which makes me happy

There IS still a large market segment that care is shit is made in house....just that it is so damn expensive for labor here - I have no substantiation for my claims or my beliefs, BUT I personally put a large share of the blame on the unions. They had their use back in the day when employers could essentially kill their employees or have them as basic slaves to the company (Tennessee Ernie Ford's 16 Tons says it well), but that shit just doesn't exist now. One construction company (non union) pays its guys a market wage for general labor, say $20 / hour....union shop pays $25-$40 PLUS all the expenses for funding the fat cats at its head and the bloated heirarchy of hangers-on. Say we're making widgets (like me)....pay $15 non or $25 union OR pay to have the shit made overseas AND shipped thousands of miles for $5 ....yes it makes fiscal sense, yes it pisses me the hell off. Another example...a buddy works for the county...easy job, great benefits, great pension and he's paid a better than market wage. He also gets a SHITLOAD of weekend / overtime which is 1.5 - 2 times pay. So he works for 8 hours on a sunday and my taxes pay him close to $40 / hour? For sitting in a truck or holding a sign? WTF?

My brides company is the largest wholesaler / processor / seller of fish in the USA....they have say 10 containers of "fish" that needs to be processed into a certain product....it's fucking cheaper to ship 100 tons of shit to china, have it processed and packaged, and THEN ship it BACK, than to do it here. Owner of the company can turn a penny into copper wire he's so cheap, so yes he goes that route..good for me I guess as my bride is the documentation manager, so it DOES help employ her (75% of her job is shipping product to customers overseas thankfully)..but it still pisses me off.

My son's Volkswagen Jetta wade made in Mexico for craps sake (thanks Nyetz!)....

Like to hear your opinions on this.......

-----Everything I see is made some where else. My Allies and Axis game..but do they have to print..made in China on every army man ,tank,ship,plane..isn't the box enough. I had a Family Feud game when I was little. I bought one last year,to play with my kids and their friends. On the box,MADE IN THE USA.(It does have Steve Harvey's face on the box,China must have turned the offer down)..I almost fell over. I haven't seen that on anything since the early 80's. But America is still a service country. That's our problem. We are not producing anything. Creating manufacturing jobs. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion).

Um, yeah. Unions are bad. I totally want to work twice as hard at the rat shop for $20 instead of $40.

But then again when I buy a new toilet, everyone says I can save big buying the one at Wal*Mart made in China.

I'm actually working at a rat shop driving shuttle, best job I have ever had but only because my wife has a job that can support us $11.50/hour is pretty bad pay here. They do buy us food and beer typically at least once a month.

manufacturing is dropping off bit by bit in china as the race to the bottom intensifies. it will eventually come full circle, as the burgeoning middle class actualises into a consumption / services based economy; sooner or later the above noted international jiggling will not be economically viable as labour and manufacturing costs continue to rise, but who knows how this ol' world of ours'll be looking by then. like shit, is your best guess.

i'm sure them there's some quality widgets. take heart.

As the people in China see guys making money they want to make $11.50/ hour too. Eventually factories need to find new places where the population can be used as slaves to make things in exchange for a bowl of rice and a mat to sleep on after a 12 hour shift.

The best part is people claiming to be appalled by slavery shopping at Wal*Mart the worlds largest plantation Colonel.

2dimes wrote:Um, yeah. Unions are bad. I totally want to work twice as hard at the rat shop for $20 instead of $40.

But then again when I buy a new toilet, everyone says I can save big buying the one at Wal*Mart made in China.

I'm actually working at a rat shop driving shuttle, best job I have ever had but only because my wife has a job that can support us $11.50/hour is pretty bad pay here. They do buy us food and beer typically at least once a month.

My buddy laughs all the way to the bank...can't fault him. I worked union to pay for college so paint me a hypocrite....took 5 years to get back to what I was making! Stilll..fell that way nonetheless....

The bigger problem with unions in my opinion are the way we were making concessions and losing key quality of life clauses in our contracts during the best economic time for everyone in the last 35 years.

Wages kept climbing but they go away pretty quick when things slow down like now.

The other things will take a century to get back if ever.

Ah well, maybe I'll get a nice shopping cart and collect scrap metal and deposit beverage containers to buy my airplane.

I just read in the newspaper that 40% of jobs in my province are low-wage (within 4 dollars of min. wage), temporary and shift-work. If there was ever a time for unions, now is it.

Competition for jobs is so thick that people are willing to work for free with infinite postdocs, internships etc. For blue collar work, working Sunday is now expected. There were two people who wanted a job. One didn't want to work Sundays and wanted a living wage. The other just needed to scrape by, so he was willing to work for less and on Sundays. The latter got the job while the former went hungry. Now everyone is working for less and guess whose ahead now? Nobody, except the employers.

On the other side of our socioeconomic ladder, we have the career man. Last year he made 4 million because he decided to stay open on Sundays, which added a whole new business day for him. This year he made 3 million dollars. Unfortunately, the disease in his head known as greed considers that a loss of 1 million. Since he's already open Sundays, the only way for him to grow his business is to open on holidays. Good bye, Christmas.

People think that these are unrelated concepts. Recreation time, quality of life, morality and community are all very low. The fact that the divorce rate is high contributes to our broken economy, which is propped up artificially by borrowing. Only when people strive towards the moral and productive life, and our communities can be expected to be supportive and law-abiding can the economy truly grow.

All true Doom but those corporations bought the media corporations and have been showing everyone how unions are for stupid people like nurses and teachers who are greedy and become super rich off our taxes.

So now everyone hates unions.

Our taxes are never wasted by government contracts buying $700 toilet seats off their buddies rat shop supply company.

This debate is entirely tangled with how you value American lives compared to non-American lives. I don't value the former over the latter, so I see global trade as good, because the people who take the cheaper labor in other countries need the employment more than Americans do. Plus, the money saved buying the cheaper products is freed up to employ others (perhaps here in the US). If you do value the former over the latter, then your position is most likely going to be that jobs going overseas is a bad thing anyway.

Similar ideas hold for unions: is paying people intentionally higher wages going to offset (say with quality of life increases) what we could be buying if we were paying people lower wages? And how does that mesh with the idea that at some point, increasing wages will depress the number of jobs?

Metsfanmax wrote:This debate is entirely tangled with how you value American lives compared to non-American lives. I don't value the former over the latter, so I see global trade as good, because the people who take the cheaper labor in other countries need the employment more than Americans do. Plus, the money saved buying the cheaper products is freed up to employ others (perhaps here in the US). If you do value the former over the latter, then your position is most likely going to be that jobs going overseas is a bad thing anyway.

Similar ideas hold for unions: is paying people intentionally higher wages going to offset (say with quality of life increases) what we could be buying if we were paying people lower wages? And how does that mesh with the idea that at some point, increasing wages will depress the number of jobs?

It is a tangled question.

I disagree with your statement: "the money saved buying the cheaper products" on pure semantics. That is a useful lie that the stores tell us: shop now and save. "Saving" and "shopping" are actually completely opposite terms (except for extreme couponing, which doesn't even work in Canada, although I once got some veggie burgers for -1c, which the girl charged my 1c for).

I have toyed with the idea of a stratified economy though. As in, what the rich and poor can afford does not overlap at all. We see this in many third-world countries, where the rent and food are much cheaper than here. The stores have a vested interest in keeping a middle class (which is really people who think they can afford luxury goods) since not having one would destroy their market.

-----My Favorite WAL-MART fact...Is They used to lock the doors after closing for they day..Make their workers.work for free... AS FOR UNIONS..They did serve a purpose in the Growth of our Nation. FORD(THE REAL ONE,HENRY FORD). He worked his workers to death...Then you had coal mines,steel mills..and the railroads.Where people were treated like slaves,in the worst working conditions. THEN THE UNIONS GOT GREEDY AND LAZY....The Companies saw the light, over seas they went... Looks like CHINA and the East are growing up...SOUTH AMERICA here we come.. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...I also find it funny that The Government goes with the cheapest contractor(not the best contractor) when building stuff. Say rockets that go into space. Or should I say flying Roman Candles. ........But Yet the Government will spend $50 on a hammer. When the rest of us pay $10. ........

ConfederateSS wrote:-----My Favorite WAL-MART fact...Is They used to lock the doors after closing for they day..Make their workers.work for free... AS FOR UNIONS..They did serve a purpose in the Growth of our Nation. FORD(THE REAL ONE,HENRY FORD). He worked his workers to death...Then you had coal mines,steel mills..and the railroads.Where people were treated like slaves,in the worst working conditions. THEN THE UNIONS GOT GREEDY AND LAZY....The Companies saw the light, over seas they went... Looks like CHINA and the East are growing up...SOUTH AMERICA here we come.. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...I also find it funny that The Government goes with the cheapest contractor(not the best contractor) when building stuff. Say rockets that go into space. Or should I say flying Roman Candles. ........But Yet the Government will spend $50 on a hammer. When the rest of us pay $10. ........

The only reason Wal*Mart is not working people to death like Henry is because it's too difficult to do now.

The two reasons industry did not move everything to China before was the American population was able to feed themselves via farming and gardening. Now they rely on processed foods for survival. Second until somewhat recently the quality of Chinese products was so inferior it prevented its self from gaining much market share.

The two examples of Government are opposite extremes of typical people involved. One buys the cheapest thing based on cost and gets garbage. The other buys the expensive thing either to help their buddy or sometimes for a direct reward.

Ok, I call (at least partial) bullshit.

On the government $50 hammer thing...any of you know HOW the buying works (at least for small business set asides as required by the DoD, anything under $150,000 for some and $25,000 for others)?

The whole $100 toilet seat thing always bothered me so I began doing research and discovered that the govt REQUIRES all purchases under $150000 or $25000 (depending on the classification) to be put up for bid. On the plus side, IMHO, everything has to be USA made (because, yes, I want those poor people overseas to starve).

In my researching, I focused on what I know: back support belts, webbing, velcro, metal and plastic hardware, thread, binding, corduras, etc. I saw that the feds would put out RFQs (request for quotations) for example for 10 back belts to say 2,000 backbelts. If only one company puts in a bid on the 10 RFQ, and they put $1,000 per belt, the feds HAVE to accept it. Stupid but true. The problem here is not enough people are familiar with this process to get in and compete. I never saw one as bad as a grand a belt, but on small orders I DID see some like $50, for a fucking crappy elastic belt I can buy for $2.50. The larger RFQs, people competed on as it was a significant dollar figure. The prices however were still $25 for a crap belt. I saw an opportunity where I could make a very small dent in the problem.

This was 15 years ago; I went thru the fucking hassle, on my own, of becoming a DoD approved vendor AND substitution my product for what they had historically purchased; this literally took almost 200 hours....WHAT a fucking pain....

Since then, however, I have bid on every RFQ that I can manage and now the belts NEVER sell for more than $10 (same scenario with the other crap I bid on). I feel good about stopping this raping of the feds and wasting of our tax dollars....a very small drop I know, but a moral victory for me....

AND, as a bonus, I have gotten thousands of dollars of orders thru them ;o) Rarely get belt contracts now however as I have priced myself out of the market...can't afford to sell my product for $9....BUT I accomplished my goal. Still get contracts for misc hardware and raw goods....

i reckon you could sell that story to fox for a puff-piece. genuinely. few extra dollars never hurt

You tell me how manno ;o)

newsmanager@foxnews.com

although tbh you'll have more luck with your local fox newsroom, assuming you have one. it's perfect armchair foam-finger / cheeto / twizzler fodder. it's got everything. the lone american fighting the damn bureaucrats in the system. your tax dollars slacking. real americans makin' real american products.

honestly reckon they'll give you some airtime. free advertising if nowt else mate

WTF...I'll bite ....1 in a million and I make a buck....my momma taught me to share ;o)

DoomYoshi wrote:I just read in the newspaper that 40% of jobs in my province are low-wage (within 4 dollars of min. wage), temporary and shift-work. If there was ever a time for unions, now is it.

Competition for jobs is so thick that people are willing to work for free with infinite postdocs, internships etc. For blue collar work, working Sunday is now expected. There were two people who wanted a job. One didn't want to work Sundays and wanted a living wage. The other just needed to scrape by, so he was willing to work for less and on Sundays. The latter got the job while the former went hungry. Now everyone is working for less and guess whose ahead now? Nobody, except the employers.

On the other side of our socioeconomic ladder, we have the career man. Last year he made 4 million because he decided to stay open on Sundays, which added a whole new business day for him. This year he made 3 million dollars. Unfortunately, the disease in his head known as greed considers that a loss of 1 million. Since he's already open Sundays, the only way for him to grow his business is to open on holidays. Good bye, Christmas.

People think that these are unrelated concepts. Recreation time, quality of life, morality and community are all very low. The fact that the divorce rate is high contributes to our broken economy, which is propped up artificially by borrowing. Only when people strive towards the moral and productive life, and our communities can be expected to be supportive and law-abiding can the economy truly grow.

It's a race to the bottom while the 1% get fatter.

I'm pretty sure most of the rules pertaining to DoD bidding are partially a result of the $100 toilet seat. Who knows how often or the last time it happened. It might have been pre 1950s.

Corruption has been in place since a few cave men formed the first government to trick Grog out of a bit more his fresh meat.

KoolBak wrote:WTF...I'll bite ....1 in a million and I make a buck....my momma taught me to share ;o)

aight, but just you remember and throw some ol' khaz's way when the studio lights are blinding and the cheques start rolling in. i gotta get my granny somethin' nice for my troubles.

Dimey, I agree completely...

Khaz, that's exactly what I meant ;o) On a related note, have had many many people / entities try and set the world on fire selling my product; 90% dismal failures that ended up HURTING my brand...dumbass salesmen driven by the allmighty dollar The ONE massive success story was a dude that gave me a relationship contact that panned out to a great deal of sales over 6 years or so....gave the dude 20% of every sale....he made a significant amount of moolah for that simple contact....I wish I had more of those ;o) Course then he got divorced and his wife took everything

KoolBak wrote:There IS still a large market segment that care is shit is made in house....just that it is so damn expensive for labor here - I have no substantiation for my claims or my beliefs, BUT I personally put a large share of the blame on the unions.

There are a lot of reasons. Unions are one. Government is another. Government regulations is a third.

But are they all equally horrid, or are we missing a critical element? I believe we are. While all three have their bad sides, and all three impact the cost of labor, there is an element which we almost never consider; the "floor" to base our judgments on.

Some people view things in binary terms; Progressive Socialist vs Austrian Libertarian. But I see a third way, the way that Christianity had progressed for centuries. And people who try to do play both sides of the binary model at the same time are the worst of the worst.

The Austrian model places labor as the same as any other capitol. But labor is not the same; labor is people, with lives and families and needs and requirements. You can't treat people like you treat typewriters and insist you still have a sense of morals. If you look at nations where labor is really cheap you will notice a number of factors; slave labor; complete disregard to the environment to the point where people are dying; a dangerous possibility of government instability.

I was a victim of the outsourcing craze a decade back. The notion was that you "outsourced" your work to cheaper workers in a third party company and saved on your own development staff. The problem was that with going this route you lost your control. Moreover, there was no guarantee that the workers in that company were working full time for you - they may be working on several companies at the same time and giving you only part of their time. Worse yet, these workers were only accepting such low wages to get their foot in the door and quickly left for better jobs resulting in a constant flow of new people who did not know your systems well. Needless to say "outsourcing" costed companies more money than it saved in the long run.

Yes it is clear that we need to reduce the costs of living at all levels. But we do not need to race to the bottom to do so.

Well said.....thanks