Conquer Club

We're all on the internet, so we have a reasonable amount of knowledge when it comes to computers. Of course, this isn't enough for the top notch programmers of this world, who make the big bucks by writing code day in, day out.
So... in The Netherlands (and I'm sure in other countries as well) programming will be a subject taught to children from the age of 8 in the near future.

Disclaimer: this isn't absolutely sure as of now, but I know that they will pull this bill through, no matter what. It might take a few years, though.

I'm a primary school teacher myself (coincidentally teaching 8 to 9 year olds) and I assure you I have zero knowledge about programming. However, I do have extensive knowledge about didactics and it doesn't take a genius to understand that an excellent programmer isn't necesarrily able to teach children how to program. Thinking about this situation makes me laugh, but it's really not that interesting at all, because...

This post isn't meant as a "wtf are you trying, you stupid gov't" kinda post, I'm more interested whether there are other countries who are 'investing in the future' and who are facilitating 21st century skills as if it were the highest possible goal to achieve.

- JBlombier

JBlombier wrote:We're all on the internet, so we have a reasonable amount of knowledge when it comes to computers. Of course, this isn't enough for the top notch programmers of this world, who make the big bucks by writing code day in, day out.
So... in The Netherlands (and I'm sure in other countries as well) programming will be a subject taught to children from the age of 8 in the near future.

Disclaimer: this isn't absolutely sure as of now, but I know that they will pull this bill through, no matter what. It might take a few years, though.

I'm a primary school teacher myself (coincidentally teaching 8 to 9 year olds) and I assure you I have zero knowledge about programming. However, I do have extensive knowledge about didactics and it doesn't take a genius to understand that an excellent programmer isn't necesarrily able to teach children how to program. Thinking about this situation makes me laugh, but it's really not that interesting at all, because...

This post isn't meant as a "wtf are you trying, you stupid gov't" kinda post, I'm more interested whether there are other countries who are 'investing in the future' and who are facilitating 21st century skills as if it were the highest possible goal to achieve.

- JBlombier

Programming is not just writing code... so learning the basics of programming at early age can be fun, for the students and for the teachers, and will give extraordinary economical results in 10+ years, if other classes are adjusted accordingly. I think this year or next one, basics of programming will be introduced for 9 year old students in Macedonia so Netherlands is not alone
I presume you will use something like Scratch.

P.S. I totally support the efforts for introduction of basics of programming at early age because lots and lots of engineers will emerge as a result of shaping children's brain to think as a programmers. And we can expect solid economy growth once those students reach adulthood.

Well not in Belgium yet, which is unfortunate. But then again, you probably also know that 'belgen met een baksteen in de maag geboren zijn en nederlanders altijd innovatie zoeken'. Out of curiosity, what class is programming going to replace?

waauw wrote:Well not in Belgium yet, which is unfortunate. But then again, you probably also know that 'belgen met een baksteen in de maag geboren zijn en nederlanders altijd innovatie zoeken'. Out of curiosity, what class is programming going to replace?

Why would it have to replace any?

subtleknifewield wrote:

waauw wrote:Well not in Belgium yet, which is unfortunate. But then again, you probably also know that 'belgen met een baksteen in de maag geboren zijn en nederlanders altijd innovatie zoeken'. Out of curiosity, what class is programming going to replace?

Why would it have to replace any?

Doesn't have to, but since he didn't mention that the dutch government increased the number of class hours per week, I'm assuming they didn't and the programming class will just replace hours of another topic.

waauw wrote:

subtleknifewield wrote:

waauw wrote:Well not in Belgium yet, which is unfortunate. But then again, you probably also know that 'belgen met een baksteen in de maag geboren zijn en nederlanders altijd innovatie zoeken'. Out of curiosity, what class is programming going to replace?

Why would it have to replace any?

Doesn't have to, but since he didn't mention that the dutch government increased the number of class hours per week, I'm assuming they didn't and the programming class will just replace hours of another topic.

Not bad reasoning, but they could also just simply decrease the increments of time allotted to each subject.

yeees, the xbox and the iphone and the tv and the facebook ia not enough...

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goran is right though, learning programming is more than writing code just as learning math is more than being an actuary, but i still see a big problem with kids being hooked to electronics all day long.

my rant is probably unnecessary, but i think they would benefit more from being taught yoga.

i see kids buying snacks all day long, wtf is this? when i was a kid they would allow me 1 snack a day, if i was lucky. and instead of going out to the street to run and play some sport, they are sitting next to each other sharing horrible songs with their phones.


whatever, im old.

JBlombier wrote:We're all on the internet, so we have a reasonable amount of knowledge when it comes to computers.

But it also helps to google things from time to time. Kid-Friendly Programming Languages

Alright, I notice the OP came across as an anti-programming rant, but that wasn't my intention. I'm sure society can benefit of these skills, eventhough I agree with nietzsche wholeheartedly. I'm a bit more optimistic though, because I don't think kids in the future will sit in a row all day long with their tablets and phones. We have tablets in my school and sure, the kids love to play and learn on them. But when the bell rings and they're allowed to go outside, a force of nature gets a hold of them. There is the occasional exception, but 99% of the kids still love playing outdoors. It's the parents job to stimulate it and if they do, I see no problem.

waauw came up with an interesting point, a point that makes every teacher chuckle and - at the same time - worry whenever a government wants to improve its education.
Somehow the powers that be never have any field-knowledge, at least they don't show it very often. I'm sure we can all agree that making (important) decisions about a business/industry/institution has little chance of being meaningful, when the people who make the decision have no experience in that field of expertise. In this particular case, the Minister and his Secretary already want to add hours to the amount of time kids are in school for more P.E. (to get the kids moving, before they get fat!) and I have no doubt the same could be proposed for programming. They avoid the discussion whether some subjects could be removed or should be cut in half (time-wise), because it's too easy for the opposition to come up with a counter-argument to keep that subject just the way it is.

If someone here truly believes that letting kids stay even more hours per day in school will benefit their development, I'm happy to have a discussion about that, but I hope that's not necesarry. Kids are already too long in school every day, pretty much every study about this shows that. Nope, I ain't got a fancy link to those studies, but I'll be happy to look it up for you.

If the government is able to scratch an hour of the current curriculum and replaces it for programming, I'm all for it. I wanna learn it too. Maybe I can develop some simple apps (linked to the subject material in the oh-so-oldfashioned, but still rather useful books) to use in the classroom, I'm sure the possibilities are endless.

Programming is no doubt very useful for programming jobs, but for everyone else it's completely dead knowledge. I don't understand why programming can't just be started at university or at earliest upper secondary, same as forensics, law, economics, and all the other specialist subjects.

mrswdk wrote:Programming is no doubt very useful for programming jobs, but for everyone else it's completely dead knowledge. I don't understand why programming can't just be started at university or at earliest upper secondary, same as forensics, law, economics, and all the other specialist subjects.

From personal experience anyone who has basic programming knowledge(I will include knowledge of excel) is giving much better tasks, then those without. People without programming knowledge expect programmers to be magicians and mind readers. Proper use of software is another important matter same as quality of input data, etc.

Computers are tools of the present and the future, having basic understanding about them will help a lot for the new generations.

giving much better tasks?

mrswdk wrote:giving much better tasks?

for new software features...

nietzsche wrote:yeees, the xbox and the iphone and the tv and the facebook ia not enough...

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goran is right though, learning programming is more than writing code just as learning math is more than being an actuary, but i still see a big problem with kids being hooked to electronics all day long.

my rant is probably unnecessary, but i think they would benefit more from being taught yoga.

i see kids buying snacks all day long, wtf is this? when i was a kid they would allow me 1 snack a day, if i was lucky. and instead of going out to the street to run and play some sport, they are sitting next to each other sharing horrible songs with their phones.


whatever, im old.

OLD MAN, LOL.

Seriously though, I used to read and read and read (books) all day, until I got hooked on my computer. XD

mrswdk wrote:giving much better tasks?

In other words, knowing when what they demand is not possible with the current level of technology, is what I believe Goranz is saying.

Oh right, well in that case:

GoranZ wrote:From personal experience anyone who has basic programming knowledge(I will include knowledge of excel) is giving much better tasks, then those without. People without programming knowledge expect programmers to be magicians and mind readers

The same applies to any job. Try being a CEO and having everyone act like you should be in personal control of every single aspect of your 10,000 employee, multi-billion dollar company.

The thing abut being a CEO is, you tend to be a better one by, at the very least, having competent advisers to tell you what will and will not work. Are you expected to know everything? Absolutely not.

But it's also more about just your people skills and organizational ones.

subtleknifewield wrote:The thing abut being a CEO is, you tend to be a better one by, at the very least, having competent advisers to tell you what will and will not work. Are you expected to know everything? Absolutely not.

But it's also more about just your people skills and organizational ones.

My point being that if some underling several layers removed from the CEO and whom the CEO has no direct contact with does something stupid the CEO can often be pressured to resign, as if the CEO is somehow more responsible than, say, that person's line manager.

That pressure comes from a complete lack of understanding of the role of CEO. Maybe as well as programming, primary schools should also start teaching business management case studies.

mrswdk wrote:

subtleknifewield wrote:The thing abut being a CEO is, you tend to be a better one by, at the very least, having competent advisers to tell you what will and will not work. Are you expected to know everything? Absolutely not.

But it's also more about just your people skills and organizational ones.

My point being that if some underling several layers removed from the CEO and whom the CEO has no direct contact with does something stupid the CEO can often be pressured to resign, as if the CEO is somehow more responsible than, say, that person's line manager.

That pressure comes from a complete lack of understanding of the role of CEO. Maybe as well as programming, primary schools should also start teaching business management case studies.

Honestly? Whether that was trolling or not--I agree they should teach that stuff.

I was joking. It would be nice if the general populace had a proper understanding of how everything works, but alas there just isn't time in the school curriculum to give them that (especially in a school were pupils study from 9-3 and then go home).

*Shrugs*

In any case, there is still little denying the widespread practical applications of learning basic programming early considering digital devices are practically everywhere--even people in third-world countries are not completely missing the technology leap here.

I have never needed to be able to code anything in my life.

And your point is...?

Not everyone needs basic math or grammar to get along in their lives, either. And yet they are still taught in schools. And before you try to go and twist this into me saying they shouldn't be taught...I will say this right now. They are still useful skills to have, whether you ever need to use them or not.

Just like knowing English is.

Maths, grammar and English are far more important than programming.

mrswdk wrote:Maths, grammar and English are far more important than programming.

Perhaps, but the margin is narrowing with every computer, smart phone, and tablet being produced and sent out into the world.

mrswdk wrote:I have never needed to be able to code anything in my life.

But we are talking about children that will start working after ~15 years from now and will have to work another 30 after that.

mrswdk wrote:Maths, grammar and English are far more important than programming.

For now...