Conquer Club

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:49 am**

-------I'm not counting these as shooting--shootings. Last year a man with an axe walk into a so called church. An off duty cop shot him.
-------Well yesterday in Detroit, at another one of those churches that pop up every where like Starbucks. A crazy person went into the church. Was going to attack the pastor with a brick. Yes, you read that ... A BRICK... The pastor shot the person 7 times. In self defense.

The person later died at the Hospital. The pastor told police. It was someone he was helping. See ,that's what you get for helping people. I'm starting to think maybe Quintus Arrius(from BEN HUR) was right. "Hate keeps a man alive. It gives him strength." GOD SERVES OUT REAL JUSTICE IN DETROIT. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:21 am**

A Christian who wields a weapon is a hypocrite. Or at least not observant of their faith.

-TG

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:33 am**

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:A Christian who wields a weapon is a hypocrite. Or at least not observant of their faith.

-TG

You're thinking of Amish.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:47 am**

mrswdk wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:A Christian who wields a weapon is a hypocrite. Or at least not observant of their faith.

-TG

You're thinking of Amish.

The way christians describe Jesus Christ would indicate pacifism as well, even in the face of violence.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:05 am**

Luke 6:29
"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also."

Matthew 5:39
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Really is an open-and-shut case.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:45 am**

It's pretty well established that you can quote the Bible to make it say whatever you feel like. There are plenty of quotes in there about executing people and destroying sinners and the enemies of God too.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:08 am**

ConfederateSS wrote:-------I'm not counting these as shooting--shootings. Last year a man with an axe walk into a so called church. An off duty cop shot him.
-------Well yesterday in Detroit, at another one of those churches that pop up every where like Starbucks. A crazy person went into the church. Was going to attack the pastor with a brick. Yes, you read that ... A BRICK... The pastor shot the person 7 times. In self defense. The person later died at the Hospital. The pastor told police. It was someone he was helping. See ,that's what you get for helping people. I'm starting to think maybe Quintus Arrius(from BEN HUR) was right. "Hate keeps a man alive. It gives him strength." GOD SERVES OUT REAL JUSTICE IN DETROIT. ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

This not surprising from a guy who flies a treasonous flag.

What we need is more exclamation points!!!!!!!!

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:56 am**

Dukasaur wrote:Luke 6:29
"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also."

Matthew 5:39
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Really is an open-and-shut case.

You've completely misinterpreted those passages.

The Luke passage is about loving your enemies. We are to not be retaliatory. And the smite in the original Greek doesn't mean what you think it does <see below>
Just after in regards to the cloak, Jesus said even sinners loan to other sinners. Christians are supposed to loan things without expecting payment back. If the loanee pays you back, it's all good, if not, it's still all good.
Jesus really didn't seem to like going to the cops every time someone messed with him, unlike today where everyone calls the cops and sues everyone else at the drop of a hat. That's a whole other conversation though, and Jesus seems proven right IMO considering how bad things get when people call the cops and sue all the time. Tamir Rice was gunned down and killed by the cops because some dumbass called the cops saying he thought the kid had a gun at a playground. Or that other guy who was shot dead by the cops in Walmart because people freaked out and misinformed the cops of the real situation in a case of a severe misunderstanding that left an innocent guy shot dead for no good reason.
This should provide some better insight to what it is meant by "resisting".

As to the Matthew, the word resist means to resist in a court of law. The word "smite" in the original Greek was a verb that means "to slap with the back of the hand". So when the passage talks about getting smited on the right cheek then turn to him the other. It is more akin to insult than violence. Someone insulting you isn't grounds to use violence.

There is no prohibition from defending one's life that I am aware
And there's the pitfalls of translations, they aren't exact when translating from Greek to English. The translation you are basing your understanding is flawed.

Christians are supposed to resist passively against injustice. But when someone comes to murder you then by all means a Christian can defend themselves. Jesus and God would certainly understand.

Then again, you can interpret Bible passages however you'd like, though I'd prefer you look deeper and try to find the nuances of the meanings from what the passages you are basing your interpretations on from the original text that your translation is based on. You seem not to have done that bit of due diligence in this case.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:16 pm**

mrswdk wrote:
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:A Christian who wields a weapon is a hypocrite. Or at least not observant of their faith.

-TG

You're thinking of Amish.

Amish are Christians...

-TG

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:14 pm**

TA1LGUNN3R wrote:Amish are Christians...

Way to miss the point. That's OK, everyone else does.

Do Amish use guns?

The Amish belief in nonresistance mean Amish will not serve in the military, law enforcement, or in any other position that requires them to use firearms against other people. Yet Amish are not strangers to guns.

In fact, many Amish homes contain weapons. Farmers in particular keep guns at home, in order to shoot pests. A Pennsylvania produce farmer uses his shotgun to clear his fields of groundhogs and other pests, for example.

Now Christians in general might fall back on St. Thomas Aquinas' "Just War Theory."

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:00 pm**

"Shooting pests," not people.

-TG

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:06 pm**

Cue Mets.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:44 pm**

yeah but, some people are pests. owen, for example...

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:33 pm**

mrswdk wrote:It's pretty well established that you can quote the Bible to make it say whatever you feel like. There are plenty of quotes in there about executing people and destroying sinners and the enemies of God too.

None of that is in the Gospels. There's a lot of violence before Jesus -- the really bloodthirsty Jehovah of the old testament, who slaughters entire nations because of various minor misdeeds. Then, after Jesus a bit more violence creeps in via Peter and Paul. Sandwiched in between the blood-soaked Old Testament and the rather harsh Letters of the apostles, we have a brief interlude of Jesus, and although that record is rather thin, everything we see of Jesus is a picture of a radical pacifist. The Bible is cobbled together from multiple sources, and there is often self-contradictory, but in those passages actually concerned with the career of Jesus there is not one incident displaying any advocacy of violence from him.

patches70 wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Luke 6:29
"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also."

Matthew 5:39
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Really is an open-and-shut case.

You've completely misinterpreted those passages.

The Luke passage is about loving your enemies. We are to not be retaliatory. And the smite in the original Greek doesn't mean what you think it does <see below>
Just after in regards to the cloak, Jesus said even sinners loan to other sinners. Christians are supposed to loan things without expecting payment back. If the loanee pays you back, it's all good, if not, it's still all good.
Jesus really didn't seem to like going to the cops every time someone messed with him, unlike today where everyone calls the cops and sues everyone else at the drop of a hat. That's a whole other conversation though, and Jesus seems proven right IMO considering how bad things get when people call the cops and sue all the time. Tamir Rice was gunned down and killed by the cops because some dumbass called the cops saying he thought the kid had a gun at a playground. Or that other guy who was shot dead by the cops in Walmart because people freaked out and misinformed the cops of the real situation in a case of a severe misunderstanding that left an innocent guy shot dead for no good reason.
This should provide some better insight to what it is meant by "resisting".

As to the Matthew, the word resist means to resist in a court of law. The word "smite" in the original Greek was a verb that means "to slap with the back of the hand". So when the passage talks about getting smited on the right cheek then turn to him the other. It is more akin to insult than violence. Someone insulting you isn't grounds to use violence.

There is no prohibition from defending one's life that I am aware
And there's the pitfalls of translations, they aren't exact when translating from Greek to English. The translation you are basing your understanding is flawed.

Christians are supposed to resist passively against injustice. But when someone comes to murder you then by all means a Christian can defend themselves. Jesus and God would certainly understand.

Then again, you can interpret Bible passages however you'd like, though I'd prefer you look deeper and try to find the nuances of the meanings from what the passages you are basing your interpretations on from the original text that your translation is based on. You seem not to have done that bit of due diligence in this case.

Admittedly I don't know for sure. Nobody does. The first book of the gospels was written when Jesus had been dead for 50 years, and by the time the Bible in its modern for came together he had already been dead for almost 300. Still, every piece of evidence in the Gospels points to a Jesus who was absolutely committed to pacifism, including purely passive resistance to injustice but no violent retaliation, regardless of how well deserved it might be.

The passages about the smiting are not our only recourse. To me, the most crucial piece of evidence is the Garden of Gethsemane and the ear of the Roman soldier. Is there no prohibition on self-defense? Perhaps not, but to me the ear of the Roman soldier testifies that even in a just cause, Christ's followers are not to use violence.

By the time our modern Bible came together in 325 A.D., Christianity was the state religion of the bloodthirsty Roman Empire, so to me it's a miracle that any traces of the original, pacifist Jesus were allowed to survive. But survive they did, and reading carefully we see, over and over again, a Jesus who was an unyielding radical in both his pacifism and his rejection of materialism.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:12 pm**

I don't think it goes against your passive view of him but he did make a whip to chase the money changers from the temple, and told the disciples to buy a sword if they did not have one.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:44 pm**

2dimes wrote:I don't think it goes against your passive view of him but he did make a whip to chase the money changers from the temple, and told the disciples to buy a sword if they did not have one.

Correct.

duka wrote: in those passages actually concerned with the career of Jesus there is not one incident displaying any advocacy of violence from him.

Against the money changers was the only time it has been written that Jesus used violence, so there is at least one instance isn't there?. It was the only time that we know of that Jesus used violence. Those who understand why Jesus did what he did will find that the violence was justified.
As to your supposed belief that Jesus was a pure pacifist, you should probably refer yourself to Matthew 10:34-36, contemplate it and come to understand what Jesus was talking about.

It wouldn't have made the pastor a good christian to just let that guy come and bash his brains out with a brick (as to the OP). Self defense is not prohibited by Jesus at all. Jesus is prohibiting vengeance, or using violence in retaliation to an insult. Jesus is also talking more about the internal. As in when someone insults you, fight the urge to insult them back, etc etc.

Turn the other cheek is one of the most misunderstood passages. It doesn't mean what Duka implied it meant in his OP. He used a Bible passage he didn't understand to make a point that was stupid, as in the preacher in defending himself shows he's not a true Christian. In Duka's view it seems if the pastor had let the assailant bash his brains in then that would have made the pastor a good Christian, which is just stupid.

Even a cursory google exploration on the passages he quoted would have shown him how wrong he was.
But as it's been said, people will warp the teaching to fit their own view.

Now I don't know if the pastor in the OP is a good Christian or not, I can't see into his heart. But I wouldn't assume that he is going against the teaching of Jesus just because he defended himself from being murdered with a brick. In fact, if a Christian was watching someone attacking another, say a child, would anyone say it was un-Christian to go to the child's aid and attempt to stop the brick wielding assailant even if it meant using violence against the attacker? I think not.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:57 pm**

LUKE 22:36,37

36He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’b ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:21 pm**

I guess now you can call it a shooting gallery.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:11 am**

i whip moneychangers all the time. it's fun!!!

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:18 am**

riskllama wrote:i whip moneychangers all the time. it's fun!!!

The money changers of old are today's Wall Street Bankers.

New Living Translation
I'll say it again--it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:07 am**

ConfederateSS wrote: A crazy person went into the church.

Now that's something you don't see every day.

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:39 am**

Nymeria Stark wrote:
ConfederateSS wrote: A crazy person went into the church.

Now that's something you don't see every day.

..love their Christian smiles

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:44 am**

Wow, look at those Christians and their hate. A government which had any sense would bulldoze all their churches and promote atheism as often as it could (e.g. by making atheism a condition of holding public office).

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:06 pm**

mrswdk wrote:Wow, look at those Christians and their hate. A government which had any sense would bulldoze all their churches and promote atheism as often as it could (e.g. by making atheism a condition of holding public office).

Posted: **Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:27 pm**

mrswdk wrote:Wow, look at those Christians and their hate. A government which had any sense would bulldoze all their churches and promote atheism as often as it could (e.g. by making atheism a condition of holding public office).

----We already do... The Only President to go to Church every week...Was Kennedy. Look what happened to him...

ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

Nymeria Stark wrote:
ConfederateSS wrote: A crazy person went into the church.

Now that's something you don't see every day.

----You're right...I should have said,"AN AMERICAN DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST PERSON"...

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