A message from Apple

[UCAbears]

http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/

Still not afraid of Big Brother?

[Metsfanmax]

I strongly support them in their opposition to the government's demands on this.

[mrswdk]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

[waauw]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

Human behaviour. There will always be a couple who are tempted by corruption, or the whole sharade might even be corrupt in some instances. This might not sound that bad if a guy checks up on his wife for instance, but what if someone on the inside sells information to private corporations or spies on political circles. That's when things get sticky.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

Its not about the FBI. If the FBI can do it, then your mate Dave can too. And thats the problem. Do you really want Dave to be able to backdoor your phone and all your bank details?

[mrswdk]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

Its not about the FBI. If the FBI can do it, then your mate Dave can too. And thats the problem. Do you really want Dave to be able to backdoor your phone and all your bank details?

I mean, I don't understand how creating a version of IOS containing a backdoor and installing it on one iPhone that is then given to the FBI would lead to other iPhones being susceptible to attack by random people, and I doubt that Apple are arguing that it would. At most the issue is that it would somehow enable the FBI to work out how to access other phones too.

[UCAbears]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

Its not about the FBI. If the FBI can do it, then your mate Dave can too. And thats the problem. Do you really want Dave to be able to backdoor your phone and all your bank details?

I mean, I don't understand how creating a version of IOS containing a backdoor and installing it on one iPhone that is given to the FBI would lead to other iPhones being susceptible to attack by random people, and I doubt that Apple are arguing that it would.

That's EXACTLY what they're saying... Did you read it? If a technique is developed to do that you can't be so niave as to believe it won't be manipulated and used on more phones than just one. That's why they are opposing developing that software.

[Metsfanmax]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

Its not about the FBI. If the FBI can do it, then your mate Dave can too. And thats the problem. Do you really want Dave to be able to backdoor your phone and all your bank details?

I mean, I don't understand how creating a version of IOS containing a backdoor and installing it on one iPhone that is given to the FBI would lead to other iPhones being susceptible to attack by random people, and I doubt that Apple are arguing that it would.

No, they are not arguing that the FBI having one phone with this different version of the software would pose any threat to other iPhones. They are saying that the very process of creating this version of the software and having it exist poses a threat, for the reason that once it exists, the government will have precedent for arguing that it should be installed in any number of phones that are relevant to criminal procedures. From there, it's not a very huge leap for (say) the government to enact a law saying that such software must be installed on any new phone. The only way to avoid the risk of falling down the slippery slope is to not create the slope to begin with, in Apple's view, and I agree with that.

[tkr4lf]

I guess it doesn't matter now, since that judge ordered Apple to do it.

We march ever forward on our road to tyranny.

[Metsfanmax]

That letter was in response to the judge's order and Apple is saying they're refusing to comply with the order.

[tkr4lf]

Got ya. I must have misunderstood.

[jgordon1111]

It all comes down to whether you trust the govt with info they can already get if they want,
This whole thing is a smoke screen to keep everyone occupied on their own personal security,which has been a myth since J Edgar Hoover.
It's magic to keep you focused over here while the real trick happens over there.
And Apple is the lovely assistant who helps divert your attention.

So in reality the question is what is happening that they don't want anyone to pay attention to?
Also keep in mind most election years have some world shaking crisis, check it out look at every election year

[DaGip]

The funniest thing of all is that Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc...have already been working with the government. What makes you think that some "letter" from Apple should make any difference at all. Just a ruse of something that has already been in the works since 20 Arabs ran airplanes into skyscrapers and the Pentagon. Say goodbye to your rights to personal privacy. Get use to it. It's what must be. Stand against it if you may...you will just be annoying, that's all.

The real problem isn't iPhones and Twitter...the problem is ISLAM! Get it through your skulls!

[UCAbears]

The funniest thing of all is that Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc...have already been working with the government. What makes you think that some "letter" from Apple should make any difference at all. Just a ruse of something that has already been in the works since 20 Arabs ran airplanes into skyscrapers and the Pentagon. Say goodbye to your rights to personal privacy. Get use to it. It's what must be. Stand against it if you may...you will just be annoying, that's all.

The real problem isn't iPhones and Twitter...the problem is ISLAM! Get it through your skulls!

So you still think 9/11 wasn't done by your govt... Get THAT through your skull. The war on terror is just a part of the agenda. Keep trusting your govt and you'll figure that out soon enough.

[mrswdk]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

Its not about the FBI. If the FBI can do it, then your mate Dave can too. And thats the problem. Do you really want Dave to be able to backdoor your phone and all your bank details?

I mean, I don't understand how creating a version of IOS containing a backdoor and installing it on one iPhone that is given to the FBI would lead to other iPhones being susceptible to attack by random people, and I doubt that Apple are arguing that it would.

No, they are not arguing that the FBI having one phone with this different version of the software would pose any threat to other iPhones. They are saying that the very process of creating this version of the software and having it exist poses a threat, for the reason that once it exists, the government will have precedent for arguing that it should be installed in any number of phones that are relevant to criminal procedures. From there, it's not a very huge leap for (say) the government to enact a law saying that such software must be installed on any new phone. The only way to avoid the risk of falling down the slippery slope is to not create the slope to begin with, in Apple's view, and I agree with that.

Right. So before Ginkapo sidetracked me with his 'your mate Dave' nonsense, that was my original point. Who cares if the FBI/government has a backdoor to your phone? What are they going to do to you that is worth worrying about?

[Dukasaur]

I mean, 'principles' aside, why does this matter? What does it matter if the FBI can get onto your phone and see what you've bought for your cats in Neko Atsume?

Its not about the FBI. If the FBI can do it, then your mate Dave can too. And thats the problem. Do you really want Dave to be able to backdoor your phone and all your bank details?

I mean, I don't understand how creating a version of IOS containing a backdoor and installing it on one iPhone that is given to the FBI would lead to other iPhones being susceptible to attack by random people, and I doubt that Apple are arguing that it would.

No, they are not arguing that the FBI having one phone with this different version of the software would pose any threat to other iPhones. They are saying that the very process of creating this version of the software and having it exist poses a threat, for the reason that once it exists, the government will have precedent for arguing that it should be installed in any number of phones that are relevant to criminal procedures. From there, it's not a very huge leap for (say) the government to enact a law saying that such software must be installed on any new phone. The only way to avoid the risk of falling down the slippery slope is to not create the slope to begin with, in Apple's view, and I agree with that.

Right. So before Ginkapo sidetracked me with his 'your mate Dave' nonsense, that was my original point. Who cares if the FBI/government has a backdoor to your phone? What are they going to do to you that is worth worrying about?

The list is very long, but it breaks down into three broad categories:

1. Official tyrannical abuse of power: The party in power tracking the activities of opposition parties. Everyone tracking the activities of those who are opposed to the governments policies (protesters, resisters, conscientious objectors of all varieties). Government enforcers snooping on someone who, for instance, is suing their local police department for excessive use of force. (If he's dumb enough to keep his videos on this own phone, maybe they'll delete them. Or maybe they'll just find what witnesses he's talking to, and go intimidate them.) Anti-abortion politicians scanning the records of abortion clinics. The taxman digging up privileged financial records of people who are challenging their tax bill. Thousands and thousands of possible scenarios here.
2. Unofficial abuse of power: Cops on a witch hunt. Congressmen looking for their opponent's donor list. Judges looking for new jerk-off photos. Close to where I live, a police officer was caught using police electronic surveillance equipment to keep tabs on his ex-wife and spy on her new relationships and stir up shit between her and her new boyfriend. He was reprimanded but not dealt any kind of real punishment. Again, thousands of sub-variants.
3. Simple mercenary interest: Take your info and sell it for cash. Good old-fashioned greed. I know people who got fired from their job, took the client list of the company and sold it to the competition, partly out of greed and partly just for revenge. A law-enforcement officer with access to surveillance tech could do this on a grand scale. Collect the financial data of millions of people and sell it for gain. Basically what mercenary hackers do, but more easily and thoroughly, with less danger of getting caught. Again, long list of possible variants.

[mrswdk]

lawl. Yeah, as soon as the FBI have a backdoor to make it easier for them to access smartphone data, judges are going to start commandeering law enforcement to steal women's nude selfies off their phones for the judge to jerk off too. Just as judges have been ordering the FBI to do with laptop computers for years.

Don't forget the microchips they'll implant in everyone's heads to control their thoughts.

[UCAbears]

lawl.

Don't forget the microchips they'll implant in everyone's heads to control their thoughts.

You won't be laughing when microchips are the only way you're gonna be able to get food the government produces for you.

[mrswdk]

inb4 Two Minutes Hate

[iAmCaffeine]

If the technology/encryption is made whatsoever, it's not just the FBI/government that can abuse the power it provides. Competent hackers (though I dislike that term) would undoubtedly begin looking into the possibilities it brings. I have no doubt there are some who could then access anyone's data from anyone's phone if this was implemented. Every company and government has leaks, although they likely wouldn't even be required. Plus governments are corrupt as f*ck.

I'm with Mets/Apple on this.

[mrswdk]

Again, the plan is to install this special version of IOS on one phone that would be given to the FBI. That in itself does not create any possibility of lots of people owning iPhones with a backdoor-containing version of IOS that a third party hacker could then work out how to exploit, unless you are suggesting that thieves will steal that (or another) phone from the FBI, extract the backdoor version of IOS, work out how the backdoor works, and then somehow start installing it on other people's phones.

You can try and argue that allowing the FBI to crack one criminal's phone would be the start of a 'slippery slope' towards the government mandating cameras in everyone's dining rooms, but if you follow that line of thinking then we should not have a government at all, because giving any one group of people the power to influence a whole country is just the start of a slippery slope towards the Matrix. You talk as if the choice is either '100% unrestrained freedom' or 'the inevitable path to totalitarianism'.

The UK government recently reviewed this exact issue and decided that there needs to be some way of accessing people's messages if they're involved in crime/terrorism, but that compelling developers to install backdoors shouldn't be it. Governments are perfectly capable of balancing the need to maintain order with people's desire not to live in zoo cages.

[Bernie Sanders]

I'm just a bit surprised that the government needs to publicly ask Apple to give them access to a phone? You would think the FBI, CIA and the NSA would have ways of accessing any phone regardless of the security code needed to access info on these phones. We pay tens of billions of dollars for our security services, you'd think they could pay for the best hackers in the world.

Maybe, we need to rethink how much tax dollars we give to our government agencies that need to beg publicly to the world that we don't have a clue about technology.Personally, I would fire any head of any intelligence agency that shows we lack sophistication in getting intel.

...and to the terrorists and would be terrorists, stop sending sensitive intel through phones and internet. Do it the old fashion way, make face to face contact in safe houses or areas where it would be hard for anyone to over hear you.

Just hope we are just pretending, that we are too stupid to get access to any phone publicly, so the terrorists will continue using their phones and internet to send sensitive intel.

[iAmCaffeine]

Again, the plan is to install this special version of IOS on one phone that would be given to the FBI. That in itself does not create any possibility of lots of people owning iPhones with a backdoor-containing version of IOS that a third party hacker could then work out how to exploit, unless you are suggesting that thieves will steal that (or another) phone from the FBI, extract the backdoor version of IOS, work out how the backdoor works, and then somehow start installing it on other people's phones.

That is the plan but why is it necessary? You mean to say the FBI only want it for this singular use? As if. Apple have stated that such decryption software would work for all iPhones, not just the select phone, and any chance of those details being in the wrong hands (personally I'd include the FBI under that description) should be counted as too high a risk.

If Apple didn't think there was much to risk, why wouldn't they just comply?

You can try and argue that allowing the FBI to crack one criminal's phone would be the start of a 'slippery slope' towards the government mandating cameras in everyone's dining rooms, but if you follow that line of thinking then we should not have a government at all, because giving any one group of people the power to influence a whole country is just the start of a slippery slope towards the Matrix. You talk as if the choice is either '100% unrestrained freedom' or 'the inevitable path to totalitarianism'.

The government, or at least the ideology of one in a democracy, is a group of leaders chosen by the people, for the people. On that premise, they are allowed to rule the country. However, everyone is corrupt and corruption within governments is no secret. Do you trust the UK government?

The UK government recently reviewed this exact issue and decided that there needs to be some way of accessing people's messages if they're involved in crime/terrorism, but that compelling developers to install backdoors shouldn't be it. Governments are perfectly capable of balancing the need to maintain order with people's desire not to live in zoo cages.

Everything apart from Snapchat and a couple of other messaging services can already be tracked anyway. The government can read text messages, iMessages, Facebook, your internet history etc. Plus Snapchat is also traceable if you know how.

[mrswdk]

Again, the plan is to install this special version of IOS on one phone that would be given to the FBI. That in itself does not create any possibility of lots of people owning iPhones with a backdoor-containing version of IOS that a third party hacker could then work out how to exploit, unless you are suggesting that thieves will steal that (or another) phone from the FBI, extract the backdoor version of IOS, work out how the backdoor works, and then somehow start installing it on other people's phones.

That is the plan but why is it necessary?

Going out on a limb, but I imagine they expect to find incriminating messages on that phone.

You mean to say the FBI only want it for this singular use?

I imagine they would love to lift that new version of IOS and install it on other iPhones that they wanted to get access to.

That said, if they don't have legal clearance to do that then they wouldn't be able to use anything they find by doing so as evidence in a court case, and if they could be demonstrated to have cracked someone else's phone illegally (e.g. if they pursued a lead that they could only have gotten by cracking someone's iPhone) then they would have violated the law and they would end up having whole cases thrown out because of this.

It is possible that the law could be changed to allow phones involved in criminal cases to all be cracked in this manner, maybe, but that would still be a very limited law change and one that I don't understand why people would object to.

If Apple didn't think there was much to risk, why wouldn't they just comply?

Because this is a great chance for them to peacock and make a big deal about how trustworthy and 'on your side' they are after the whole 'Apple, Google and co gave the NSA backdoors to their systems' fuss.

And because of the risk that if people found out they had done this, there might be a huge furore that would make them look like a villain and quite possible cost them customers.

The government, or at least the ideology of one in a democracy, is a group of leaders chosen by the people, for the people. On that premise, they are allowed to rule the country. However, everyone is corrupt and corruption within governments is no secret. Do you trust the UK government?

To do what?

[mrswdk]

For those of you panicking about the slippery slope:

LATE LAST WEEK, the privacy community scored a victory in a year-long battle over the future of encryption: In internal discussions, the White House quietly overruled law enforcement and intelligence officials, deciding that it won’t pursue a policy of pushing tech companies to put “backdoors” in their encryption that would allow government agencies to access decrypted private data. That’s going to make it harder for the FBI to access private data, but they’ve still got plenty of other ways in.

http://www.wired.com/2015/10/cops-dont- ... k-iphones/