Conquer Club

In this trial period, 2,000 people aged 25 to 58 will get the monthly stipend and won’t have to report how they spend it. The trial will determine if basic income can become a “a blueprint for the Finnish social security system,” the Social Insurance Institution of Finland, or Kela, said. The scheme isn’t fully universal. Only people on unemployment benefits will be eligible and they will keep getting the money even if they get a job.

Many people say that a basic income removes the incentive for people to find work, but Finland doesn’t see it that way. Instead, the government believes standard unemployment benefits keep people from looking for work because they lose their benefits once they find a job. Under Finnish logic, people on basic income will take jobs they might otherwise not have considered such as self-employment or casual work because their benefits won’t be cut. Officials also hope they can reduce the headache of coordinating Finland’s complex social security measures, which require recipients to report when they are in and out of work.

The scheme, which was launched on January 1, hopes to create an incentive for more Finns to work, since the fear of losing welfare benefits make many citizens act picky about the job they would accept.

Many Finns stay out of the job market for years as they do not want to lose their welfare benefits.

Professor Olli Kangas from Kela says that there are many incentive traps in the present system that are caused by a number of income-tested benefits paid on top of each other.

mrswdk wrote:It's not really a basic income if they're only giving it to unemployed people. It's just a new kind of unemployment benefit that they've branded 'basic income' because basic income is in vogue right now and Finland wants to get some kudos for being really forward thinking.

mrswdk wrote:It's not really a basic income if they're only giving it to unemployed people. It's just a new kind of unemployment benefit that they've branded 'basic income' because basic income is in vogue right now and Finland wants to get some kudos for being really forward thinking.

mookiemcgee wrote:

mrswdk wrote:It's not really a basic income if they're only giving it to unemployed people. It's just a new kind of unemployment benefit that they've branded 'basic income' because basic income is in vogue right now and Finland wants to get some kudos for being really forward thinking.

You should read it more closely. Everyone gets it, not just the unemployed. That's the whole point.

Only people on unemployment benefits will be eligible

mookiemcgee wrote:

mrswdk wrote:My point being that what Finland are doing is not a trial of basic income, even if that's what they're presenting it as. Telling a selection of unemployed people they'll have some of their benefits replaced with a guaranteed state income for two years is not a trial of the impact that basic income would have on unemployment rates. The fact it is a one-maybe-two year pilot suggests the basic income will expire at the end of the one-maybe-two years - something the unemployed people will be aware of. We can only assume that at the end of that period the participants will go back to receiving their old benefit, which if they have found employment almost certainly means their incomes will reduce compared to the income they were receiving during the pilot. This is an experiment on the impact that greater tapering of unemployment benefits has on unemployed people's job-seeking behavior.

A pilot of basic income would see a cross-section of all of society being given basic income over a much longer period, and ideally the follow-up evaluation would examine much more than just the impact on unemployed people's job-seeking.

Bernie Sanders wrote:America elected Trump as President, so it disqualifies it from any attempt to use it's brain power.

Since it implemented huge education reforms 40 years ago, Finland's school system has consistently come at the top for the international rankings for education systems.

So how do they do it?

It's simple — by going against the evaluation-driven, centralized model that much of the Western world uses.

Bernie Sanders wrote:Finland is a very educated country compared to America, they may be using their brains with this idea. America elected Trump as President, so it disqualifies it from any attempt to use it's brain power.

saxitoxin wrote:

Bernie Sanders wrote:Finland is a very educated country compared to America, they may be using their brains with this idea. America elected Trump as President, so it disqualifies it from any attempt to use it's brain power.

Richard Nixon proposed basic income in 1972 and did a trial on 8,500 people.

ITT we learn, Bernie Sanders is a Nixon supporter.

https://thecorrespondent.com/4503/the-b ... 5-c34d6145

The scheme, which was launched on January 1, hopes to create an incentive for more Finns to work, since the fear of losing welfare benefits make many citizens act picky about the job they would accept.

Many Finns stay out of the job market for years as they do not want to lose their welfare benefits.

Symmetry wrote:It's an interesting experiment. It's even more interesting how quickly people are to dismiss it out of hand. Some foks just think it's wrong without seeing if it works or not.

tzor wrote:You don't "experiment" on the production system. Just saying.

tzor wrote:So I don't think it is wrong, but I doubt that the question of whether it "works" or not will ever be rationally studied.

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:Read, "The Toyota Way".

The Toyota Way management approach at the automaker "worked until it didn't."

tzor wrote:

Symmetry wrote:It's an interesting experiment. It's even more interesting how quickly people are to dismiss it out of hand. Some foks just think it's wrong without seeing if it works or not.

But that's not the way things happen and you should know that. The problem with such "experiments" is that no one really looks at the end result. It's the thought that counts. When such experiments are done in the past by liberal governments and the result is complete failure, the people are lauded for at least trying to help the problem, never mind trying to figure out exactly while the idea failed in the first place and as a result some other well intentioned idiot will try it again with the same results.

It always reminds me of that Reboot episode where Enzo became the smartest program by having the CPU reduce the cycles of all the other programs. The other programs would get in his way while saying "we are helping!"

So I don't think it is wrong, but I doubt that the question of whether it "works" or not will ever be rationally studied. Once you start something it becomes hard to stop it. You don't "experiment" on the production system. Just saying.