Conquer Club

Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned an uprising by the head of a pro-Kremlin mercenary force against his Defense Ministry as a "stab in the back" that risked undermining Russia's war effort in Ukraine.

"Those who organized this military uprising, who raised arms against their fellow military comrades will answer for it," Putin said in an address to the nation Saturday morning.

The Kremlin leader called on those participating in the rebellion to "make the only right choice: Stop taking part in this criminal activity."

While mentioning no names, Putin's address appeared squarely aimed at Wagner mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin, who was formally charged with "inciting an armed revolt" by Russia's Federal Security Bureau early Saturday.

The criminal charge came as Prigozhin — in a remarkable series of posts to social media — accused the Russian military's top brass of carrying out lethal attacks on his soldiers and vowed to remove the Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu by force.

Prigozhin also claims his soldiers now control several military installations in Rostov-on-Don, a key southern Russian city that serves as a logistical base for the war effort in Ukraine.

In response, authorities have introduced "anti-terrorism operations" in the capital, Moscow, and in Rostov-on-Don to restore order.

Dukasaur wrote:Vladimir Putin, the 21st Century equivalent of Adolf Hitler, is ready to purge the Wagner Group, his equivalent of Hitler's SA.

The Wagner Group and its leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin, have been increasingly critical of Russia's high command. They seem worn out after a year-and-a-half of being used for every difficult task in Russia's illegal invasion of the Ukraine, while Russia's cowardly regular imperialist stormtroopers sit on their hands.

Prigozhin was long a bum-buddy to Putin, playing a happy Ernst Roehm to Putin's sourpuss Hitler act, but their relationship has soured since the invasion of Ukraine. Worried that the Wagner Group was getting too powerful, Putin and his cronies have increasingly cut Prigozhin off from supplies and reinforcements. Matters have recently come to a head, and now the WG stands accused of rebellion, which may or may not be true, given Moscow's traditional disregard for factual evidence.

While it seems impossible to be sympathetic to a criminal thug like Prigozhin, anyone who stands against the bloodthirsty whore Putin needs to be at least briefly applauded.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/24/1184147525/putin-wagner-treason-rebellion#:~

Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned an uprising by the head of a pro-Kremlin mercenary force against his Defense Ministry as a "stab in the back" that risked undermining Russia's war effort in Ukraine.

"Those who organized this military uprising, who raised arms against their fellow military comrades will answer for it," Putin said in an address to the nation Saturday morning.

The Kremlin leader called on those participating in the rebellion to "make the only right choice: Stop taking part in this criminal activity."

While mentioning no names, Putin's address appeared squarely aimed at Wagner mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin, who was formally charged with "inciting an armed revolt" by Russia's Federal Security Bureau early Saturday.

The criminal charge came as Prigozhin — in a remarkable series of posts to social media — accused the Russian military's top brass of carrying out lethal attacks on his soldiers and vowed to remove the Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu by force.

Prigozhin also claims his soldiers now control several military installations in Rostov-on-Don, a key southern Russian city that serves as a logistical base for the war effort in Ukraine.

In response, authorities have introduced "anti-terrorism operations" in the capital, Moscow, and in Rostov-on-Don to restore order.

Dukasaur wrote:Vladimir Putin, the 21st Century equivalent of Adolf Hitler

While it seems impossible to be sympathetic to a criminal thug like Prigozhin, anyone who stands against the bloodthirsty whore Putin needs to be at least briefly applauded.

mookiemcgee wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:Vladimir Putin, the 21st Century equivalent of Adolf Hitler, is ready to purge the Wagner Group, his equivalent of Hitler's SA.

The Wagner Group and its leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin, have been increasingly critical of Russia's high command. They seem worn out after a year-and-a-half of being used for every difficult task in Russia's illegal invasion of the Ukraine, while Russia's cowardly regular imperialist stormtroopers sit on their hands.

Prigozhin was long a bum-buddy to Putin, playing a happy Ernst Roehm to Putin's sourpuss Hitler act, but their relationship has soured since the invasion of Ukraine. Worried that the Wagner Group was getting too powerful, Putin and his cronies have increasingly cut Prigozhin off from supplies and reinforcements. Matters have recently come to a head, and now the WG stands accused of rebellion, which may or may not be true, given Moscow's traditional disregard for factual evidence.

While it seems impossible to be sympathetic to a criminal thug like Prigozhin, anyone who stands against the bloodthirsty whore Putin needs to be at least briefly applauded.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/24/1184147525/putin-wagner-treason-rebellion#:~

Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned an uprising by the head of a pro-Kremlin mercenary force against his Defense Ministry as a "stab in the back" that risked undermining Russia's war effort in Ukraine.

"Those who organized this military uprising, who raised arms against their fellow military comrades will answer for it," Putin said in an address to the nation Saturday morning.

The Kremlin leader called on those participating in the rebellion to "make the only right choice: Stop taking part in this criminal activity."

While mentioning no names, Putin's address appeared squarely aimed at Wagner mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin, who was formally charged with "inciting an armed revolt" by Russia's Federal Security Bureau early Saturday.

The criminal charge came as Prigozhin — in a remarkable series of posts to social media — accused the Russian military's top brass of carrying out lethal attacks on his soldiers and vowed to remove the Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu by force.

Prigozhin also claims his soldiers now control several military installations in Rostov-on-Don, a key southern Russian city that serves as a logistical base for the war effort in Ukraine.

In response, authorities have introduced "anti-terrorism operations" in the capital, Moscow, and in Rostov-on-Don to restore order.

This is just my own personal hot-take. Putin doesn't get along with, nor does he trust or approve of the generals running Russias military. He molded Prigozhin out of nothing, and the two are still the closest of friends and allies. Wagners 'success' over the last few years is ALL due to to Putin directing/helping Prigozhin to build it up to embarrass and undermine Russias traditional military. Prigozhin only started wagner at putins request, and with Putins instructions to go to prisons around the country and promise prisoners pardons/commutations of their sentence in exchange for fighting on the ground on the frontlines of the Ukraine conflict.

It's unclear what Putins full motives/endgame are, but personally I don't believe he and Prigozhin are 'at war' with each other in this 'rebellion' regardless of what he goes on TV and says.

It could be about cover/leverage to clear out any generals Putin doesn't like.
It could be about Wagner gaining control of a nuke, and setting it off near Ukraine so putin has cover from western blowback that it was 'insurgent rebels' and not Russia who did this.
I guess time will tell, but I am not buying this idea that Prigozhin is trying to overthrow a Putin run Russia. It's way more nuanced and cloak and dagger than that.

('hot take' means I expect most of you to disagree)

Russia says Wagner Group's leader will move to Belarus after his rebellious march challenged Putin

The Associated Press
Sat, June 24, 2023 at 1:12 AM EDT
The greatest challenge to Russian President Vladimir Putin in his more than two decades in power fizzled out relatively peacefully Saturday after the rebellious mercenary commander who ordered his troops to march on Moscow abruptly reached a deal with the Kremlin to go into exile and sounded the retreat.

The dramatic if brief revolt shifted the landscape for the Kremlin and the 16-month-old war in Ukraine and prompted Russia to pull soldiers back from the battlefield to defend the capital, a stunning recognition of the threat posed by Wagner Group soldiers under the command of Yevgeny Prigozhin.

Under the deal announced by Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, Prigozhin will go to neighboring Belarus and charges of mounting an armed rebellion will be dropped. The government said it also would not prosecute fighters who took part, while those who did not join in were to be offered contracts by the Defense Ministry.

jusplay4fun wrote:WoW...another wonderful and perspicacious post by the llama. NOT. Why did I bother to read it?

I think I was hoping for something better. My hopes were crushed again by the llama. I guess llama wants to make an impact before he leaves CC.

jusplay4fun wrote:Yes, I was considering posting that story somewhere, so Duk gets credit for first posting that interesting development.

This story could be a game changer in the Illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, so this one is certainly worth watching.

Hey Duk, I thought you are on vacation..?? Is this what you do while on vacation?

bigtoughralf wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:Vladimir Putin, the 21st Century equivalent of Adolf Hitler

lol

While it seems impossible to be sympathetic to a criminal thug like Prigozhin, anyone who stands against the bloodthirsty whore Putin needs to be at least briefly applauded.

I cba following it closely, so I'm not the best informed, but isn't all this happening because the Wagner Group want more resources from the Russian government so they can keep up their fight in Ukraine?

Cheering them on while they square up to Putin seems a bit like the CIA arming the Taleban because they wanted to piss off the USSR.

Churchill’s support for Stalin during the Second World War followed from a simple calculus of the lesser of two evils. Britain could only take on one evil empire at a time, and, of the two, Churchill believed that Nazi Germany posed the greater threat to liberty. He famously remarked, “If Hitler invaded Hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons.”2 McMeekin attempts to sidestep this harsh reality, writing: “Whether or not the payoff was worth the price is a question well worth debating.” Churchill’s alliance with the Soviets stands or falls on this question: was Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union the greater danger in 1939?

The greater evil
With hindsight, one can easily marshal facts that portray Soviet communism as the greater evil. According to the best available estimates, the Stalin regime killed 20 millions of its own citizens. Nearly six million of those deaths occurred during the 1932–33 famine brought about by Stalin’s collectivization policies.3 While Nazi Germany also killed 17 million civilians, most of those deaths occurred after Hitler’s invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.4 Thus, on the eve of the Second World War, one could argue—as Chamberlain and the appeasers did—that Nazi Germany served as a useful bulwark against a greater danger: the Soviet Union.

This analysis, however, misses a crucial point—one that Churchill recognized. Until 1939, the horrors of the Soviet regime had been primarily restricted to its own borders, while Nazi Germany had already made its expansionist ambition clear. In 1938, Germany annexed Austria. Later that year, Germany seized the Sudetenland. In 1939, the rest of Czechoslovakia passed under Hitler’s control. The Nazi doctrine of Lebensraum dictated even greater expansion. By contrast, Stalin’s doctrine of “socialism in one country” had kept the Soviet Union relatively peaceful until the Second World War began.

GaryDenton wrote:A coup and military operations where both sides are evil and bad.

Whomever should I root for?

.

mookiemcgee wrote:It's unclear what Putins full motives/endgame are, but personally I don't believe he and Prigozhin are 'at war' with each other in this 'rebellion' regardless of what he goes on TV and says.

It could be about cover/leverage to clear out any generals Putin doesn't like.
It could be about Wagner gaining control of a nuke, and setting it off near Ukraine so putin has cover from western blowback that it was 'insurgent rebels' and not Russia who did this.
I guess time will tell, but I am not buying this idea that Prigozhin is trying to overthrow a Putin run Russia. It's way more nuanced and cloak and dagger than that.

Dukasaur wrote:Yes, it is a bit like that. These are the trade-offs you face in world politics. There are very few good guys. Usually one is faced with a choice between multiple assholes and you pick the least of many evils.

Dukasaur wrote:You could be right. It's already looking like the "mutiny" was fake. For what end, time will tell.

saxitoxin wrote:1. Putin says if there are attacks on Crimea using US weapons he'll go after Uke leadership.

2. Ukes do it.

3. Putin moves nukes into Belarus and puts Belarus under the Russian strategic umbrella, insulating it from attack.

4. Using the feint of a coup, 25,000 Wagner troops suddenly move off the Eastern front resulting in the Ukes deploying all their reserves to take advantage of the opening.

5. The coup is peacefully resolved in 12 hours and the Wagners pivot and rapidly redeploy to southern Belarus, 70km north of now lightly defended Kiev.

Is something big gonna happen? TBD.

Vladimir Putin reportedly flees Moscow as Wagner forces advance in Russia
By Mary Kay Linge, Dana Kennedy and Steven Nelson
June 24, 2023 9:38am

Kremlin denies Putin has fled Moscow as Russia president’s plane ‘disappears’
Plane used by Russian president disappears from flight tracker after leaving Moscow

saxitoxin wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:You could be right. It's already looking like the "mutiny" was fake. For what end, time will tell.

Putin and Prigozhin this week ...

jusplay4fun wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:1. Putin says if there are attacks on Crimea using US weapons he'll go after Uke leadership.

2. Ukes do it.

3. Putin moves nukes into Belarus and puts Belarus under the Russian strategic umbrella, insulating it from attack.

4. Using the feint of a coup, 25,000 Wagner troops suddenly move off the Eastern front resulting in the Ukes deploying all their reserves to take advantage of the opening.

5. The coup is peacefully resolved in 12 hours and the Wagners pivot and rapidly redeploy to southern Belarus, 70km north of now lightly defended Kiev.

Is something big gonna happen? TBD.

I think we heard this before. The Ukrainians put up one hell of a resistance, as I recall. Was it 14 months ago....?

And while Zelenskyy stayed in Kyiv, Putin RAN and hide, away from Moscow. hmm.....Can we say SCARED..??...

Vladimir Putin reportedly flees Moscow as Wagner forces advance in Russia
By Mary Kay Linge, Dana Kennedy and Steven Nelson
June 24, 2023 9:38am

https://nypost.com/2023/06/24/russian-forces-head-to-moscow-putin-vows-revenge-yevgeny-prigozhin/

Kremlin denies Putin has fled Moscow as Russia president’s plane ‘disappears’
Plane used by Russian president disappears from flight tracker after leaving Moscow

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/flight-radar-24-putin-moscow-b2363558.html

Later in 2015, reports circulated on social media that Putin had died, including some reports that Putin had died on purpose so he could distract public attention from domestic issues.

saxitoxin wrote:1. Putin says if there are attacks on Crimea using US weapons he'll go after Uke leadership.

2. Ukes do it.

3. Putin moves nukes into Belarus and puts Belarus under the Russian strategic umbrella, insulating it from attack.

4. Using the feint of a coup, 25,000 Wagner troops suddenly move off the Eastern front resulting in the Ukes deploying all their reserves to take advantage of the opening.

5. The coup is peacefully resolved in 12 hours and the Wagners pivot and rapidly redeploy to southern Belarus, 70km north of now lightly defended Kiev.

Is something big gonna happen? TBD.

saxitoxin wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:1. Putin says if there are attacks on Crimea using US weapons he'll go after Uke leadership.

2. Ukes do it.

3. Putin moves nukes into Belarus and puts Belarus under the Russian strategic umbrella, insulating it from attack.

4. Using the feint of a coup, 25,000 Wagner troops suddenly move off the Eastern front resulting in the Ukes deploying all their reserves to take advantage of the opening.

5. The coup is peacefully resolved in 12 hours and the Wagners pivot and rapidly redeploy to southern Belarus, 70km north of now lightly defended Kiev.

Is something big gonna happen? TBD.

So it appears Gen. Lord Richard Dannatt basically just gave an interview in which he summarized saxi's post as his theory (note the time difference, he did it after I posted it).

Do you think (a) Gen. Lord Richard Dannatt reads saxi's posts on Conquer Club, or, (b) saxi is Gen. Lord Richard Dannatt?

saxitoxin wrote:

mookiemcgee wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:Vladimir Putin, the 21st Century equivalent of Adolf Hitler, is ready to purge the Wagner Group, his equivalent of Hitler's SA.

The Wagner Group and its leader, Yevgeny Prigozhin, have been increasingly critical of Russia's high command. They seem worn out after a year-and-a-half of being used for every difficult task in Russia's illegal invasion of the Ukraine, while Russia's cowardly regular imperialist stormtroopers sit on their hands.

Prigozhin was long a bum-buddy to Putin, playing a happy Ernst Roehm to Putin's sourpuss Hitler act, but their relationship has soured since the invasion of Ukraine. Worried that the Wagner Group was getting too powerful, Putin and his cronies have increasingly cut Prigozhin off from supplies and reinforcements. Matters have recently come to a head, and now the WG stands accused of rebellion, which may or may not be true, given Moscow's traditional disregard for factual evidence.

While it seems impossible to be sympathetic to a criminal thug like Prigozhin, anyone who stands against the bloodthirsty whore Putin needs to be at least briefly applauded.

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/24/1184147525/putin-wagner-treason-rebellion#:~

Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned an uprising by the head of a pro-Kremlin mercenary force against his Defense Ministry as a "stab in the back" that risked undermining Russia's war effort in Ukraine.

"Those who organized this military uprising, who raised arms against their fellow military comrades will answer for it," Putin said in an address to the nation Saturday morning.

The Kremlin leader called on those participating in the rebellion to "make the only right choice: Stop taking part in this criminal activity."

While mentioning no names, Putin's address appeared squarely aimed at Wagner mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin, who was formally charged with "inciting an armed revolt" by Russia's Federal Security Bureau early Saturday.

The criminal charge came as Prigozhin — in a remarkable series of posts to social media — accused the Russian military's top brass of carrying out lethal attacks on his soldiers and vowed to remove the Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu by force.

Prigozhin also claims his soldiers now control several military installations in Rostov-on-Don, a key southern Russian city that serves as a logistical base for the war effort in Ukraine.

In response, authorities have introduced "anti-terrorism operations" in the capital, Moscow, and in Rostov-on-Don to restore order.

This is just my own personal hot-take. Putin doesn't get along with, nor does he trust or approve of the generals running Russias military. He molded Prigozhin out of nothing, and the two are still the closest of friends and allies. Wagners 'success' over the last few years is ALL due to to Putin directing/helping Prigozhin to build it up to embarrass and undermine Russias traditional military. Prigozhin only started wagner at putins request, and with Putins instructions to go to prisons around the country and promise prisoners pardons/commutations of their sentence in exchange for fighting on the ground on the frontlines of the Ukraine conflict.

It's unclear what Putins full motives/endgame are, but personally I don't believe he and Prigozhin are 'at war' with each other in this 'rebellion' regardless of what he goes on TV and says.

It could be about cover/leverage to clear out any generals Putin doesn't like.
It could be about Wagner gaining control of a nuke, and setting it off near Ukraine so putin has cover from western blowback that it was 'insurgent rebels' and not Russia who did this.
I guess time will tell, but I am not buying this idea that Prigozhin is trying to overthrow a Putin run Russia. It's way more nuanced and cloak and dagger than that.

nailed it

President Putin wants to purge the general staff, maybe even Minister Shoygu himself. Despite the way the western media paints the Russian government as this Black/White cartoon villain where Putin is all-powerful and Russia his personal fiefdom, there are - like the U.S. - diverse and divergent political forces that must be balanced. The president can't simply clean house. Shoygu himself has been a minister (since 1994) longer than Putin has been in federal government (1999) and has myriad allies. But now, in the aftermath of a crisis laid at the footsteps of the generals, the president has a popular mandate to "send them to Tartarus" as they say and bring in a new, younger generation of leaders with fresh ideas.

('hot take' means I expect most of you to disagree)

surprise, bitch