Conquer Club

Pope Francis has blasted the “backwardness” of some conservatives in the U.S. Catholic Church, saying they have replaced faith with ideology and that a correct understanding of Catholic doctrine allows for change over time.
In a meeting with Portuguese Jesuits, the Pope said there was “a very strong, organized, reactionary attitude” in the U.S. church, which he called “backward.” He warned that such an attitude leads to a climate of closure, which was erroneous.
“Doing this, you lose the true tradition and you turn to ideologies to have support. In other words, ideologies replace faith,” he said.

https://apnews.com/article/pope-francis-vatican-conservatives-abortion-us-bbfc346c117bd9ae68a1963478bea6b3

Tom Reese, a senior analyst for Religion News Service, told Newsweek on Monday that he also agrees with Pope Francis, warning that many Americans are using their religion "for political purposes."

"What divides churches today is not theology but politics, or as Francis says, 'ideology.' Conservative Catholics turned against Francis because he refused to obsess over abortion, a Republican issue, and emphasized the need to deal with global warming, a Democratic issue. These same conservatives condemned as disloyal anyone who had any disagreements with the two previous popes."

https://www.newsweek.com/ex-priest-breaks-pope-criticism-american-catholic-politics-1822925

Right-wing ideology in religions is exactly what is needed here in America. It works well in Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan. Where men are men and all others are subservient!

Genesis 3:16 – To the woman he said, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Deuteronomy 28:15-19 – However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. The fruit of your womb will be cursed, and the crops of your land, and the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks. You will be cursed when you come in and cursed when you go out.

Praise God!

Oh no, not a cursed kneading trough!

GaryDenton wrote:Conservative Catholics turned against Francis because he refused to obsess over abortion, a Republican issue

He's been pretty clear that he's hard against abortion, as far as I'm aware.

He views abortion as murder but is too soft for the right wing.

The pontiff has compared abortion to "hiring a hitman"

"He asked, “Is it legitimate, is it right, to eliminate a human life to resolve a problem?” He insisted, “It’s a human life - that’s science. The moral question is whether it is right to take a human life to solve a problem."
"The Holy Father also emphasized the importance of a pastoral approach to Catholic politicians who support abortion, saying, “When the Church loses its pastoral nature, when a bishop loses his pastoral nature, it causes a political problem. That's all I can say.”"

In 2021 - "Abortion is homicide. Abortion...in no uncertain terms: whoever takes part in an abortion, kills,” said the Pope.

Beginning in 2015 during the Year of Mercy, Pope Francis allowed all priests the ability to forgive the sin of abortion in the confessional. In 2016, Pope Francis extended indefinitely the power of Catholic priests to forgive abortions, making the announcement in an apostolic letter.

Apr 7, 2023 — “A woman who has an abortion cannot be left alone. We should stay with her. We shouldn't send her to hell all of a sudden or isolate her, no.”

He is not enough of a hater for the Right. He says abortion is wrong but politicians who allow it, those who provide abortions, and those who have abortions, should not be hated or punished by the Church.

Is that inconsistent? Is Jesus inconsistent? What are the teachings of Jesus? Isn't forgiveness and love his big lessons?
.

In 2016, Pope Francis compared former Italian Foreign Minister Emma Bonino, who is an abortion rights activist, to great historical figures such as Konrad Adenauer and Robert Schuman.

"Pope Francis shocked church traditionalists and pro-life advocates after he recently praised a leading abortion rights advocate and even dubbed her as one of Italy’s “forgotten greats.”"

Catholics have known about his positions for a long time.

https://www.cal-catholic.com/pope-francis-praises-italys-leading-abortion-rights-proponent/

GaryDenton wrote:He is not enough of a hater for the Right.

Well there's a reason the US and Saudi Arabia get on so well, right? Beyond their shared love of bombing brown babies.

Maybe the US is about to do a pivot and decide the Anglicans were right all along.

Well, about 2/3 of the US says they're 'Christian', but less than 1/5 is Catholic, so it wouldn't be a huge 'about face'.

God is hardly pro life

Ten biblical episodes and prophecies provide an unequivocal expression of God's attitude toward human life, especially the ontological status of "unborn children" and their pregnant mothers-to-be. Brief summaries:

• A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).

• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).

• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).

• Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).

• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).

• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18).

• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).

• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).

• For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).

• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).

Is this HitRed's alt account or something?

bigtoughralf wrote:Is this HitRed's alt account or something?

....or something?

Something:
pronoun
1.
a thing that is unspecified or unknown.
"we stopped for something to eat"
2.
used in various expressions indicating that a description or amount being stated is not exact.
"a wry look, something between amusement and regret"

...and who is this HitRed, you speak of? Are you just confused about the real meaning of the Bible or something?

Pack Rat wrote:

bigtoughralf wrote:Is this HitRed's alt account or something?

....or something?

Something:
pronoun
1.
a thing that is unspecified or unknown.
"we stopped for something to eat"
2.
used in various expressions indicating that a description or amount being stated is not exact.
"a wry look, something between amusement and regret"

...and who is this HitRed, you speak of? Are you just confused about the real meaning of the Bible or something?

Pack Rat must be a newbie to CC Forum discussions. Try hanging out at the Street Corner, found at the very top of this Forum. Read a bit there; there is not much else there, a rather lonely street corner, I might add.

jusplay4fun wrote:

Pack Rat wrote:

bigtoughralf wrote:Is this HitRed's alt account or something?

....or something?

Something:
pronoun
1.
a thing that is unspecified or unknown.
"we stopped for something to eat"
2.
used in various expressions indicating that a description or amount being stated is not exact.
"a wry look, something between amusement and regret"

...and who is this HitRed, you speak of? Are you just confused about the real meaning of the Bible or something?

Pack Rat must be a newbie to CC Forum discussions. Try hanging out at the Street Corner, found at the very top of this Forum. Read a bit there; there is not much else there, a rather lonely street corner, I might add.

Went to the street corner, very lonely place indeed. HitRed posted a few pictures with no audio and no words. I prefer a more lively debate forum. But then again, there are only a few posters here who know how to express themselves in a intellectual and expressive way. Sorry bigtoughralf, you can improve yourself by reading more about history and other books. Comic books don't help.

I wish I could tutor you, but I have too many students at this time.

What exactly is the news here? Catholicism is a Democrat religion. This is like saying "Rachel Maddow just criticized conservatives - GOTCHA, Republicans!"

there is still a Democratic tendency among Catholics, with white Catholics consistently 8 to 12 percent more Democratic than comparable white Protestants

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/ther ... t-matters/

Pack Rat wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:

Pack Rat wrote:

bigtoughralf wrote:Is this HitRed's alt account or something?

....or something?

Something:
pronoun
1.
a thing that is unspecified or unknown.
"we stopped for something to eat"
2.
used in various expressions indicating that a description or amount being stated is not exact.
"a wry look, something between amusement and regret"

...and who is this HitRed, you speak of? Are you just confused about the real meaning of the Bible or something?

Pack Rat must be a newbie to CC Forum discussions. Try hanging out at the Street Corner, found at the very top of this Forum. Read a bit there; there is not much else there, a rather lonely street corner, I might add.

Went to the street corner, very lonely place indeed. HitRed posted a few pictures with no audio and no words. I prefer a more lively debate forum. But then again, there are only a few posters here who know how to express themselves in a intellectual and expressive way. Sorry bigtoughralf, you can improve yourself by reading more about history and other books. Comic books don't help.

I wish I could tutor you, but I have too many students at this time.

Pack Rat wins this thread, +21

jusplay4fun wrote:

Pack Rat wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:

Pack Rat wrote:

bigtoughralf wrote:Is this HitRed's alt account or something?

....or something?

Something:
pronoun
1.
a thing that is unspecified or unknown.
"we stopped for something to eat"
2.
used in various expressions indicating that a description or amount being stated is not exact.
"a wry look, something between amusement and regret"

...and who is this HitRed, you speak of? Are you just confused about the real meaning of the Bible or something?

Pack Rat must be a newbie to CC Forum discussions. Try hanging out at the Street Corner, found at the very top of this Forum. Read a bit there; there is not much else there, a rather lonely street corner, I might add.

Went to the street corner, very lonely place indeed. HitRed posted a few pictures with no audio and no words. I prefer a more lively debate forum. But then again, there are only a few posters here who know how to express themselves in a intellectual and expressive way. Sorry bigtoughralf, you can improve yourself by reading more about history and other books. Comic books don't help.

I wish I could tutor you, but I have too many students at this time.

Pack Rat wins this thread, +21

Thank you jusplay4fun.

While we are talking about Woke Pope, may I recommend a very nice written book?
Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII
Book by John Cornwell

Gives you some insight on the inner workings of the Catholic Church during World War II.

At one point the Pope said that Mussolini had given Italy back to God, and God back to Italy.

At least the trains were on time?

"But then again, there are only a few posters here who know how to express themselves in a intellectual and expressive way"


"An" intellectual.....

How embarrassing.

Dork.

KoolBak wrote:"But then again, there are only a few posters here who know how to express themselves in a intellectual and expressive way"


"An" intellectual.....

How embarrassing.

Dork.

Yes, how embarrassing! I should have proofread my post. I won't edit that criminal act in grammar and I will punish myself with self-flagellation today and ask God to give me the strength needed to use "a" or "an" proceeding a noun in the correct manner.

My apologies to you young man. I stand corrected.

Pack Rat wrote:God is hardly pro life
Ten biblical episodes and prophecies provide an unequivocal expression of God's attitude toward human life, especially the ontological status of "unborn children" and their pregnant mothers-to-be. Brief summaries:

I'm guessing you are just copying these from somewhere else without actually reading the verses?

Pack Rat wrote:• A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).

This is incorrect. The actual passage says that if a pregnant woman is injured and the baby is born prematurely but with no harm, there will be a fine. If there is injury to the child, the offender shall be punished life for life.

Pack Rat wrote:• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).

It's indeed a weird passage, but it says nothing about abortion and is strictly about cursing a woman with infertility if she is guilty of adultery.

Pack Rat wrote:• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).

Incorrect interpretation. The statement is that if the people could either obey and be blessed or turn to disobedience and idolatry and be cursed and suffer. Their children would especially suffer, and wicked things would happen, including famine so terrible that people would even eat their own children. The passage is effective because of the intrinsic assumption of the sanctity of life. Note also that one of the common Canaanite worship practices (in service to a god other than that of the Israelites) was child sacrifice, including burning live children. The prohibitions against idolatry were, in part, a condemnation of the evil associated with the worship of the other gods.

Pack Rat wrote:• Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).

The wickedness was not commended or commanded. The prophet weeps in this passage, knowing the evil that Hazael would commit.

Pack Rat wrote:• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).

"In the thirty-ninth year of Azariah king of Judah, Menahem the son of Gadi began to reign over Israel, and he reigned ten years in Samaria. And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord."

Pack Rat wrote:• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18).

Conquering armies frequently kill indiscriminately throughout history. The passage doesn't commend or command this. It just points out the terrible things that will happen.

Pack Rat wrote:• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).
• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).
• For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).

See the Deuteronomy 28 passage comments.

Pack Rat wrote:• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).

Jesus was prophesying about a specific event (often understood to be the 70AD fall of Jerusalem). Jesus was expressing special concern for the women and gave them a specific warning, as the famine that would ravage the city would be especially devastating to the young children. The historian, Josephus, recorded that quite a few Christians heeded Jesus's warning and fled Jerusalem in 69AD.

Thanks, Doc Brown. It seems that Pack Rat misunderstood the main message of the Bible, its affirmation of the sanctity of life, and specifics of the passages that he cited. One can "prove" many points by selectively quoting isolated passages of the Bible (or other books) and still miss the main points and the main emphasis. (Pack Rat did clearly see the shortcomings of ralph shown here.)

Selectively quoting from the Old Testament, in particular, can give a different view of the world and the nature of violence and vengeance.

Doc_Brown wrote:

Pack Rat wrote:God is hardly pro life
Ten biblical episodes and prophecies provide an unequivocal expression of God's attitude toward human life, especially the ontological status of "unborn children" and their pregnant mothers-to-be. Brief summaries:

I'm guessing you are just copying these from somewhere else without actually reading the verses?

Pack Rat wrote:• A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25).

This is incorrect. The actual passage says that if a pregnant woman is injured and the baby is born prematurely but with no harm, there will be a fine. If there is injury to the child, the offender shall be punished life for life.

Pack Rat wrote:• The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31).

It's indeed a weird passage, but it says nothing about abortion and is strictly about cursing a woman with infertility if she is guilty of adultery.

Pack Rat wrote:• God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53).

Incorrect interpretation. The statement is that if the people could either obey and be blessed or turn to disobedience and idolatry and be cursed and suffer. Their children would especially suffer, and wicked things would happen, including famine so terrible that people would even eat their own children. The passage is effective because of the intrinsic assumption of the sanctity of life. Note also that one of the common Canaanite worship practices (in service to a god other than that of the Israelites) was child sacrifice, including burning live children. The prohibitions against idolatry were, in part, a condemnation of the evil associated with the worship of the other gods.

Pack Rat wrote:• Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12).

The wickedness was not commended or commanded. The prophet weeps in this passage, knowing the evil that Hazael would commit.

Pack Rat wrote:• King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16).

"In the thirty-ninth year of Azariah king of Judah, Menahem the son of Gadi began to reign over Israel, and he reigned ten years in Samaria. And he did what was evil in the sight of the Lord."

Pack Rat wrote:• Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18).

Conquering armies frequently kill indiscriminately throughout history. The passage doesn't commend or command this. It just points out the terrible things that will happen.

Pack Rat wrote:• For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8).
• God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16).
• For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16).

See the Deuteronomy 28 passage comments.

Pack Rat wrote:• Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).

Jesus was prophesying about a specific event (often understood to be the 70AD fall of Jerusalem). Jesus was expressing special concern for the women and gave them a specific warning, as the famine that would ravage the city would be especially devastating to the young children. The historian, Josephus, recorded that quite a few Christians heeded Jesus's warning and fled Jerusalem in 69AD.

Of course I copied these cute little stories, since I did not create the Bible. Like anyone else, you can interpret these passages any way you wish to suite your needs and reinforce your ideology.

God did willfully have unborn killed and put babies to the sword, at least if you believe in these passages.What a nice guy/lady, huh.

I found it. Pack Rat did indeed just copy directly from a website (without attribution):
https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/2560 ... ion-rights

Doc_Brown wrote:I found it. Pack Rat did indeed just copy directly from a website (without attribution):
https://ffrf.org/component/k2/item/2560 ... ion-rights

You got me! I did not create the Bible! You must of worked so hard in Google to search for the truth!

OK, back to my self-flagelation.