How often do you visit The Map Foundry?

[jiminski]

Gee, I guess you got me. Carry on with your very mature tantrum.

see above

Sorry, that's too complex a concept for me to grasp. What is this "above" you speak of? I'm confused.

ahh witty two .. i'll put that in chapter 3.

[DiM]

the fact that the classic is the most played has nothing to do with the revamp. the fact that people play a map and like it doesn't mean that map can't be improved through a revamp.

to keep the election analogy if you and your buddies talk about obama all the time and how you like him but neither of you goes to vote for him and hillary gets elected, you still have no right to complain regardless of the fact you like obama

ok empty analogies ... If Bush pretends to hold an election and falsifies election lists, to exclude a large proportion of the electorate; Who are no permitted to vote (as he marks them down as incarcerated for example) then the election is a farce and can not be judged to be the will of the majority of the people.

To blame the majority for not be enabled to vote and say they have no valid opinion as to the result, is very very manipulative of the facts.

you should be in African politics DIM

did i say anything about bush? did i talk about rigged elections?? or about people not being allowed to vote??

let me rephrase

if you and your buddies talk about obama all the time and how you like him but neither of you goes to vote for him because you're too lazy and prefer sitting at home watching oprah and then hillary gets elected, you have no right to complain regardless of the fact you like obama

is this better??

anyway, point is the map was up for debate for 10 weeks, people had a chance to vote and express their concerns. some people did some didn't. those that didn't should STFU because it's their fault for missing the opportunity.

[jiminski]

is this better??

anyway, point is the map was up for debate for 10 weeks, people had a chance to vote and express their concerns. some people did some didn't. those that didn't should STFU because it's their fault for missing the opportunity.

hmm yes you had to take a leap to find my metaphor.

What is i mean is the situation and the dynamics (or lack of) between the Map Foundry (hey even the forums are visited by a small percentage of the population) and the rest of the Community precluded a representative vote on the Changes.
I do not say that this was purposeful omission of the consensual oppinion but that the result is the same so it can not be viewed as a consensual decision!

This is the fact ... Now are we to say that people who bought a membership, many of whom started playing on a similar board to that which was recently 'updated'. are we to say that by their absence renders their views defunct!?

well that's crazy. the reason that it is fine to have a tiny percentage of the population making 'New' maps is that these are always extra to what people signed on for!
If some are bad .. you just don't play them!

but to change without the correct consultation is not on! it is bad for moral, it is bad for community cohesion and therefore it is bad for business.

to say that the thread was in a back-water forum (with the greatest respect for your valued work) for 10 weeks is not the point.

[DiM]

is this better??

anyway, point is the map was up for debate for 10 weeks, people had a chance to vote and express their concerns. some people did some didn't. those that didn't should STFU because it's their fault for missing the opportunity.

hmm yes you had to take a leap to find my metaphor.

What is i mean is the situation and the dynamics (or lack of) between the Map Foundry (hey even the forums are visited by a small percentage of the population) and the rest of the Community precluded a representative vote on the Changes.
I do not say that this was purposeful omission of the consensual oppinion but that the result is the same so it can not be viewed as a consensual decision!

This is the fact ... Now are we to say that people who bought a membership, many of whom started playing on a similar board to that which was recently 'updated'. are we to say that by their absence renders their views defunct!?

well that's crazy. the reason that it is fine to have a tiny percentage of the population making 'New' maps is that these are always extra to what people signed on for!
If some are bad .. you just don't play them!

but to change without the correct consultation is not on! it is bad for moral, it is bad for community cohesion and therefore it is bad for business.

to say that the thread was in a back-water forum (with the greatest respect for your valued work) for 10 weeks is not the point.

the forum button is on plain site, the map foundry sub forum is also on plain site. anybody can click them and write something.
the fact that like some people chose to click flame wars instead of map foundry is no excuse.

and to continue with the elections example, if in one week we have elections and it is announced on tv but i don't open it to see it's entirely my fault for not knowing when to vote. or if i do open the tv but watch only the adult channel again it is entirely my fault for not being up to date.

sorry mate but the foundry forum is open to anybody. just how all the people there managed to click on it and enter and read and post, anybody can do it. and if they don't, then all i can say is: suck it up cupcake.

[detlef]

Weren't there threads in the GF started by a few people complaining about the changes to the Classic map urging people to go to the Foundry to chime in? Honestly, I didn't see them but was told via pm by somebody they existed. I was somewhat inactive for a few months there so I don't know.

If that's the case, it sort of takes some of the air out of the, "We never saw it coming" argument.

[hulmey]

DIM, your arrogance knows no bounds! whata bout the people that dont want to visit the foundry? they have PAID to play risk. Most players want to play on the classic map. They come to CC to play the game. not visit the forums or to make maps. Im sorrry if you feel the map foundry is number 1, coz it aint!

Now, the map looks worse than it was before. So lets pull it down and work some more on it!

[DiM]

Weren't there threads in the GF started by a few people complaining about the changes to the Classic map urging people to go to the Foundry to chime in? Honestly, I didn't see them but was told via pm by somebody they existed. I was somewhat inactive for a few months there so I don't know.

If that's the case, it sort of takes some of the air out of the, "We never saw it coming" argument.

the classic map had another makeover some time ago and people complained as it was made privately by the original author. then lack took it down and asked the map maker to make it under the supervision of the foundry and thus the map revamp was born. threads existed people ignored them and now they have the nerve to complain

[jiminski]

the forum button is on plain site, the map foundry sub forum is also on plain site. anybody can click them and write something.
the fact that like some people chose to click flame wars instead of map foundry is no excuse.

and to continue with the elections example, if in one week we have elections and it is announced on tv but i don't open it to see it's entirely my fault for not knowing when to vote. or if i do open the tv but watch only the adult channel again it is entirely my fault for not being up to date.

sorry mate but the foundry forum is open to anybody. just how all the people there managed to click on it and enter and read and post, anybody can do it. and if they don't, then all i can say is: suck it up cupcake.

Ok ok put your fingers in your ears close your eyes and you will be proved right!
Nothing needs to change, everyone else is wrong .. sheese i wish this stubborn philosophy had prevailed when it came to the Classic map.

I say again: The foundry is brilliant; it's structure and method of working is just about as good as i could imagine!
In this case (more so than for any other map) the system failed!

It is so clearly true that you should try to help us move forward, not dig your heals in and sulk at how things should have worked!

[jiminski]

Weren't there threads in the GF started by a few people complaining about the changes to the Classic map urging people to go to the Foundry to chime in? Honestly, I didn't see them but was told via pm by somebody they existed. I was somewhat inactive for a few months there so I don't know.

If that's the case, it sort of takes some of the air out of the, "We never saw it coming" argument.

the classic map had another makeover some time ago and people complained as it was made privately by the original author. then lack took it down and asked the map maker to make it under the supervision of the foundry and thus the map revamp was born. threads existed people ignored them and now they have the nerve to complain

haha so what you are saying is.. : when the changes came to the General Forum we did complain and then you took it into an underpopulated forum so you could sneak them through, without the inconvenience of democracy... nice work!

and now you have the nerve to dismiss our complaints!

[detlef]

DIM, your arrogance knows no bounds!

Ironic really, that I've been accused no less than a dozen times of insulting people in the arguments about the classic map. Somehow questioning the character or calling people arrogant because they don't agree with you guys is fair game but calling people childish for spamming the forum and then complaining about the fact that CC making it clear that they've listened and would like to fix it is not enough, is strictly off-limits.

[jiminski]

DIM, your arrogance knows no bounds!

Ironic really, that I've been accused no less than a dozen times of insulting people in the arguments about the classic map. Somehow questioning the character or calling people arrogant because they don't agree with you guys is fair game but calling people childish for spamming the forum and then complaining about the fact that CC making it clear that they've listened and would like to fix it is not enough, is strictly off-limits.

I think you are in the wrong thread mate.. me and hulmey are in fact actively working to find a suitable solution in the official thread. (for all the good i am on that i will try none-the-less)

It was this thread, created to voice how useless the rest of the community and that we deserve all we get which raked back over our ire. (no offense El but that is what this was always going to become)

[DiM]

DIM, your arrogance knows no bounds! whata bout the people that dont want to visit the foundry? they have PAID to play risk. Most players want to play on the classic map. They come to CC to play the game. not visit the forums or to make maps. Im sorrry if you feel the map foundry is number 1, coz it aint!

wait, what?? people want to play the classic map?? well then what's stopping them. isn't the revamp the same map? i mean you have the same shape terits borders, gameplay is unchanged and the only modifications are purely cosmetic and very small.

the revamp is 99% of the old one.
look at the indochina revamp for example. totally different.

please tell me how is the current revamp stopping people from playing??


and btw i didn't say the foundry is #1, i just said people should visit and give feedback during the creation instead of complaining after the map is released.

if it were up to me i'd keep the foundry private and restrict the access to only a few that have the will, the brains and the skills to help.

Now, the map looks worse than it was before. So lets pull it down and work some more on it!

you're being funny here, if the map is taken down and more work is put into it that won't bring back the old version. it would just result in a different revamp. you think people will be happy with that one?? you do realise there's always bound to be some people complaining about changes. it's the human nature to be reluctant to changes even if they are for good.

when AoM was made people complained about it's non-classic gameplay. and yet is has lots of fans
when conquer gameplay (AoR series, Feudal) was introduced, again people complained that it is confusing and yet those maps are also very successful. people don't like changes but after a while they get used to them and embrace them after realising the advantages they bring.

[detlef]

DIM, your arrogance knows no bounds!

Ironic really, that I've been accused no less than a dozen times of insulting people in the arguments about the classic map. Somehow questioning the character or calling people arrogant because they don't agree with you guys is fair game but calling people childish for spamming the forum and then complaining about the fact that CC making it clear that they've listened and would like to fix it is not enough, is strictly off-limits.

I think you are in the wrong thread mate.. me and hulmey are in fact actively working to find a suitable solution in the official thread. (for all the good i am on that i will try none-the-less)

It was this thread, created to voice how useless the rest of the community and that we deserve all we get which raked back over our ire. (no offense El but that is what this was always going to become)

fair enough.

[DiM]

the forum button is on plain site, the map foundry sub forum is also on plain site. anybody can click them and write something.
the fact that like some people chose to click flame wars instead of map foundry is no excuse.

and to continue with the elections example, if in one week we have elections and it is announced on tv but i don't open it to see it's entirely my fault for not knowing when to vote. or if i do open the tv but watch only the adult channel again it is entirely my fault for not being up to date.

sorry mate but the foundry forum is open to anybody. just how all the people there managed to click on it and enter and read and post, anybody can do it. and if they don't, then all i can say is: suck it up cupcake.

Ok ok put your fingers in your ears close your eyes and you will be proved right!
Nothing needs to change, everyone else is wrong .. sheese i wish this stubborn philosophy had prevailed when it came to the Classic map.

I say again: The foundry is brilliant; it's structure and method of working is just about as good as i could imagine!
In this case (more so than for any other map) the system failed!

It is so clearly true that you should try to help us move forward, not dig your heals in and sulk at how things should have worked!

actually the system has not failed. the system has produced a better map in all aspects. people are fond of the old one, true and i can't complain as it is normal but they will realise in time that the new one is better.

i used to have a wallet i loved. unfortunately it was torn and looked like shit (12 years of using it took their toll). my wife gave me a brand new leather wallet. very nice very cool looking, but it seemed something was wrong. it didn't have the familiar aspect of my older one. so i didn't use it. until a week later when my wife threw away the old junk. i was mad, we had a huge fight and because i had nothing else i grabbed the new wallet and used it. at first it felt strange in my back pocket as the old one was shaped to the form of my butt-cheek. but after a while i got used to it. i discovered it does look nicer, it's a lot cleaner and has many more pockets. now i love it.

[jiminski]

yeap this was a public relations disaster!

People do not like change, you are correct. what should have been done is for a period we should have had 2 maps running concurrently. (what is the drama to that?)

Then we would see which was preferred.. if indeed it is only our stubborn resistance to the unfamiliar your improved map would have been used by more people in the natural way.

[DiM]

Weren't there threads in the GF started by a few people complaining about the changes to the Classic map urging people to go to the Foundry to chime in? Honestly, I didn't see them but was told via pm by somebody they existed. I was somewhat inactive for a few months there so I don't know.

If that's the case, it sort of takes some of the air out of the, "We never saw it coming" argument.

the classic map had another makeover some time ago and people complained as it was made privately by the original author. then lack took it down and asked the map maker to make it under the supervision of the foundry and thus the map revamp was born. threads existed people ignored them and now they have the nerve to complain

haha so what you are saying is.. : when the changes came to the General Forum we did complain and then you took it into an underpopulated forum so you could sneak them through, without the inconvenience of democracy... nice work!

and now you have the nerve to dismiss our complaints!

no, i'm saying the original artist made a revamped classic privately and lack changed the old one. people didn't like it and posted in the GD, thus lack took it down and asked the artist to work with the foundry. this way the map would receive feedback and be scrutinized by experienced eyes. the current revamp was born.

PS: isn't the foundry a public forum? isn't democracy applied there?? last i recall anybody could enter read write and express their feelings towards any map.

[DiM]

yeap this was a public relations disaster!

People do not like change, you are correct. what should have been done is for a period we should have had 2 maps running concurrently. (what is the drama to that?)

Then we would see which was preferred.. if indeed it is only our stubborn resistance to the unfamiliar your improved map would have been used by more people in the natural way.

do you even realise the implications of what you say??
how about having 10 different versions for each map and see which one is the best?? afterall each map goes through a series of updates in the process of creation. heck, i had 82 updates on the AoM map, how about if we have 82 AoM versions available to see which one plays best.

PS: and clearly the old version would win for the same reason i would have used my old wallet if i still had it. comfort, familiarity, reluctance to change, etc. that doesn't mean the new wallet is bad, in fact it is much better.

[jiminski]

actually the system has not failed. the system has produced a better map in all aspects. people are fond of the old one, true and i can't complain as it is normal but they will realise in time that the new one is better.

i used to have a wallet i loved. unfortunately it was torn and looked like shit (12 years of using it took their toll). my wife gave me a brand new leather wallet. very nice very cool looking, but it seemed something was wrong. it didn't have the familiar aspect of my older one. so i didn't use it. until a week later when my wife threw away the old junk. i was mad, we had a huge fight and because i had nothing else i grabbed the new wallet and used it. at first it felt strange in my back pocket as the old one was shaped to the form of my butt-cheek. but after a while i got used to it. i discovered it does look nicer, it's a lot cleaner and has many more pockets. now i love it.

yeas sorry DiM.. you are right we are wrong!

ignoring that something happened to upset a lot of people is very helpful.

ooh they'll get used to it .. it'll all blow over.. sheese what a patronising attitude. It does back to the concept which Detlef could not comprehend! Beauty and perfection are illusory, they are not an exact science and can be based not just on your idea of idealised perfection, they are based on a whole conglomerate of imperfect things which become a gestalt perception.

And yes! part of that is tradition but the mere resonance of tradition and what it evokes, creates what gives us comfort! And yes a perception in the face of all the other facts of 'perfection'!

[jiminski]

yeap this was a public relations disaster!

People do not like change, you are correct. what should have been done is for a period we should have had 2 maps running concurrently. (what is the drama to that?)

Then we would see which was preferred.. if indeed it is only our stubborn resistance to the unfamiliar your improved map would have been used by more people in the natural way.

do you even realise the implications of what you say??
how about having 10 different versions for each map and see which one is the best?? afterall each map goes through a series of updates in the process of creation. heck, i had 82 updates on the AoM map, how about if we have 82 AoM versions available to see which one plays best.

PS: and clearly the old version would win for the same reason i would have used my old wallet if i still had it. comfort, familiarity, reluctance to change, etc. that doesn't mean the new wallet is bad, in fact it is much better.

don't be silly DiM.. we are talking about the Classic map .. the fact that you guys can not see that this is a special case is either mindfully confrontational or you need to broaden your horizons in there, as you are stir crazy!

[DiM]

yeas sorry DiM.. you are right we are wrong!

i can agree with this the rest is just BS coming from the frustration of not being able to adapt to a new situation.

as i said. i was mad at my wife for throwing my old wallet. we had a nasty fight. in the end i realised she was right i was wrong and i apologized. you just need some time to adapt, get used to the new map, realise its advantages and then you'll love it. no need to come and apologise later though

[DiM]

yeap this was a public relations disaster!

People do not like change, you are correct. what should have been done is for a period we should have had 2 maps running concurrently. (what is the drama to that?)

Then we would see which was preferred.. if indeed it is only our stubborn resistance to the unfamiliar your improved map would have been used by more people in the natural way.

do you even realise the implications of what you say??
how about having 10 different versions for each map and see which one is the best?? afterall each map goes through a series of updates in the process of creation. heck, i had 82 updates on the AoM map, how about if we have 82 AoM versions available to see which one plays best.

PS: and clearly the old version would win for the same reason i would have used my old wallet if i still had it. comfort, familiarity, reluctance to change, etc. that doesn't mean the new wallet is bad, in fact it is much better.

don't be silly DiM.. we are talking about the Classic map .. the fact that you guys can not see that this is a special case is either mindfully confrontational or you need to broaden your horizons in there, as you are stir crazy!

WOW, classic map. so what?? please tell me what is so different in the new revamp that completely destroys the gameplay of the map?? (which by the way can't be called classic since it's different than the classic risk board)
please tell me what. is it the new bonuses? oh wait they are the same.
the new borders? those are the same also.
new colours? nope same also. different terit names? again, nope.
oh the map is brighter and has white army circles. MY GOD, it's an ABOMINATION, what were they thinking? making the army numbers more visible?? who wants that?? moving the terit names not to overlap borders?? why? i liked the borders hidden behind terit names, it allowed my imagination and geography skills fill the gaps.

[owenshooter]

Herr DiM,
why would i go to the map foundry when i can just join with the massive vocal "silent majority" of 63, that have signed the petition, to have changes made after the fact? why would i go to the foundry when warned over the course of several months that the classic map was undergoing changes, when i can just bitch and moan with 63 others about the changes at a later date? why would i go to the map foundry and offer constructive input and criticism when i can just come to the GD and post "IT SUCKS" or "CHANGE IT BACK" or "MY PREMIUM WILL NOT BE RENEWED"? why would i go to the map foundry and be part of the process, when i can just bitch about the changes that i decided to not be a part of in the first place? you, sir, are ridiculous! to expect me or anyone else to be so interested in our cherished classic map, that we would take a moment of our time to visit the foundry sometime over the past 4 months, is just ludicrous! you sir, are a cad!!!

with all my soul,

0

[detlef]

actually the system has not failed. the system has produced a better map in all aspects. people are fond of the old one, true and i can't complain as it is normal but they will realise in time that the new one is better.

i used to have a wallet i loved. unfortunately it was torn and looked like shit (12 years of using it took their toll). my wife gave me a brand new leather wallet. very nice very cool looking, but it seemed something was wrong. it didn't have the familiar aspect of my older one. so i didn't use it. until a week later when my wife threw away the old junk. i was mad, we had a huge fight and because i had nothing else i grabbed the new wallet and used it. at first it felt strange in my back pocket as the old one was shaped to the form of my butt-cheek. but after a while i got used to it. i discovered it does look nicer, it's a lot cleaner and has many more pockets. now i love it.

yeas sorry DiM.. you are right we are wrong!

ignoring that something happened to upset a lot of people is very helpful.

ooh they'll get used to it .. it'll all blow over.. sheese what a patronising attitude. It does back to the concept which Detlef could not comprehend! Beauty and perfection are illusory, they are not an exact science and can be based not just on your idea of idealised perfection, they are based on a whole conglomerate of imperfect things which become a gestalt perception.

And yes! part of that is tradition but the mere resonance of tradition and what it evokes, creates what gives us comfort! And yes a perception in the face of all the other facts of 'perfection'!

There you go again. Listen, I get the notion of imperfection and beauty. It's why Lauren Hutton never "fixed" her teeth or why Maggie Gylenhall shouldn't get a boob job. I understand, trust me. What you need to understand is that the quote I commented on. The one that inspired you to attack my character was rather Freudian. "It was perfect...we were used to it". Perhaps you didn't mean to imply that it was perfect because you were used to it but it sure came off that way. And it was a rather convenient slip because I highly suspect that is precisely the issue that many people have.

Ask yourself this: When you first came to CC. If the classic map was as it is right now, would you have walked away? Or would you have, like me, said "Oh cool, on-line Risk. Let's give this a go". My guess is that the vast majority of you all would have just plugged in and played. I'm sure that there are those of you who truly oppose the move for artistic reasons. I'd be very surprised, however, if there aren't plenty who have just grasped onto that reason as a convenient way to rationalize their inclination to complain or knee jerk reaction to change.

Now, do us both a favor and don't "arrogantly" dismiss this as "not getting it"

[DiM]

Herr DiM,
why would i go to the map foundry when i can just join with the massive vocal "silent majority" of 63, that have signed the petition, to have changes made after the fact? why would i go to the foundry when warned over the course of several months that the classic map was undergoing changes, when i can just bitch and moan with 63 others about the changes at a later date? why would i go to the map foundry and offer constructive input and criticism when i can just come to the GD and post "IT SUCKS" or "CHANGE IT BACK" or "MY PREMIUM WILL NOT BE RENEWED"? why would i go to the map foundry and be part of the process, when i can just bitch about the changes that i decided to not be a part of in the first place? you, sir, are ridiculous! to expect me or anyone else to be so interested in our cherished classic map, that we would take a moment of our time to visit the foundry sometime over the past 4 months, is just ludicrous! you sir, are a cad!!!

with all my soul,

0

you know owen, you might be on something here.(drugs most likely)
i mean why the heck spend a few minutes in the foundry giving some feedback when i can bitch for hours in the GD about it. it increases my post count and keeps me entertained for an entire afternoon.

[owenshooter]

you know owen, you might be on something (drugs most likely) here. i mean why the heck spend a few minutes in the foundry giving some feedback when i can bitch for hours in the GD about it. it increases my post count and keeps me entertained for an entire afternoon.

try it naked, with peanut butter betwixt thine buttocks!!! it is truly divine!!-0