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Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Ditocoaf on Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:30 pm

Most of us know a player -- I'll call him "Wallop" -- who has an interesting way of, as he puts it, "upping his rank." He has gotten good at a very specific, seldom-used map. He creates FOW games on this map, with eight players. Usually, because this map is so unpopular among experienced players, the maps sink to the front page of Join A Game, where they are filled up with new recruits. Half of them deadbeat, and the other half are usually easy to mop up. So, bit by bit, Wallop rises in rank. Currently, he is a Colonel, but I don't doubt that his rank will continue to reach new heights.

I realize that what Wallop's doing isn't cheating.

However, what he is doing is showing the worthlessness of the point system. The fact is, that it is far easier to "up your rank" by gaming the system than by actually improving your skill. Wallop probably would be a corporal like me if he played a random selection of maps. But he knows that the real strategy of CC isn't to get good at the game--it's to get good at the system.

Of course, this only matters because for some strange reason, Wallop sees points as worth something in themselves. Others might feel a sense of pride reaching a rank, because it represents how much they have worked at improving their strategy. Wallop's rank, however, only shows how much time he has wasted in trying to earn meaningless points.

And points are essentially made meaningless because of people like him.

I loved the introduction of "medals" because it makes things like this less useful. It's hard to game the system to earn a wide variety of medals. In a suggestion thread that Wallop was posting in once, I made a comment on how despite his high rank, his lack of medals showed how little effort he put into that rank. He responded by telling me how worthless I was, because I had a low rank. Back then, I responded by saying that at least my rank is somewhat representative of my skill -- I suck at this game -- but now I realize I was wrong. I have no skill at this game, and usually make up what I'm doing as I go along. I haven't really earned this badge; it's mostly luck that gives me the rank of corporal. However, my complete lack of medals is very representative of my accomplishment. Only 44 games played in 4 months, and only 9 of them won. I'm getting closer to a Standard Accomplishment medal, just as I am also starting to develop a little rudimentary strategy.
Since then, Wallop has started to guarantee all the new recruits perfect ratings, even the deadbeats -- simultaneously criticizing the system, and earning himself 3 more medals. But 6 medals is the maximum he can ever hope to have without branching out. So his medals are truly representative of how good he is at this game.

Of course, I also know that he won't read this, because he has me on ignore. He puts most people on ignore. ;)

I don't mean this post as a flame against Wallop... rather, I am using him as an example to show that score and rank are fundamentally flawed, but medals aren't nearly as much so. Look around at the number of medals people have. I think you'll find that the truly good players, the ones who could hold their own in a variety of situations, will have many medals, while the players who play to game the system or get good at a specific game (like doubles against a pickup team, or 1v1 on an obscure and complex map), will have far fewer.
Last edited by Ditocoaf on Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby trapyoung on Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:44 pm

just cuz wallop has you on ignore doesn't mean he won't read this, he klobbers through the forums frequently. did i just give it away?
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Ditocoaf on Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:56 pm

Heh. Actually, I'm just assuming; I really have no clue if I'm in his multi-volume compendium of foes... Perhaps if I reached Lieutenant, I could be certain. It would be entertaining to see his reaction to this.

But my main hope is to see if others agree that medals are more accurate. I just used "Wallop" as an example. If this ends up in Flame Wars, I'll be disappointed, because that's not what I had in mind.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby trapyoung on Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:59 pm

it's hard to say if medals are more accurate to skill because it benefits those whose volume of games are greater. i really feel the medals should be based off of a % or plateaus for certain medals. maybe it gives too much credit to those same individuals who only learn 1 map but no system for issuing medals will be perfect.

there, back on topic :D
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Pedronicus on Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:37 pm

Have you researched, before using the name 'Wallop', that there isn't already a player actually called wallop?
If there is a player called wallop, he's just had his good name dragged through the very muddy waters of a particularly nasty pond.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby trapyoung on Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:49 pm

ped's right, there was a wallop, memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=144645 . sadly his first and last game were on october 11, 2007 and it was probably you dito that chased him away : P
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:20 pm

There are always going to be people who "use the system" ... be it CC or life. And, even if it makes them "feel good", usually others figure it out pretty soon. If it irritates, just "foe" them and you don't have to wrry about it.

The vast majority of CC folks are nice to play. Why worry about those few who are not? Ignore them, here as you would in life.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby gannable on Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:38 am

i disagree. Medals seem to be based solely on the # of games played.

I'm sure some highly ranked players are experts at manipulating the pt system.

Currently I'm a major and if you look at my games you'll see that I play on many different maps with an assortment of rules.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby meathead on Fri Jul 04, 2008 7:43 am

I disagree, just because 1 or 2 people abuse the system, that doesnt make it bad, or make something else better. Both systems have their merits.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Iron Butterfly on Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:59 am

Medals are indicitive of number of games played...won or lost. They say nothing about skill.
What they do indicate is the players willingness to get out of their comfort zone at the risk of losing points.

If one goes out and plays every style and map without winning and is still a cook but has a ton of medals THAT does not make them a better player.

The original poster used an example of a more infamous player every one knows about. His rank is only meaningful to himself as he is a laughing stock to everyone else in the know. He is an exception and should not be used to judge the overall effectiveness of the point system.

The medal system was desighned, in my opinion, to create a "carrot" for everyone. Now even crappy or average players can crow over their accomplishments.

Points are awarded to only those who win. Yes there are flaws and the system can be gamed but in the end its all we have and for the most part fair.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby vikprez on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:08 am

Iron Butterfly wrote:If one goes out and plays every style and map without winning and is still a cook but has a ton of medals THAT does not make them a better player.


gannable wrote:i disagree. Medals seem to be based solely on the # of games played.


How will he/she have a ton of medals if they don't win? You have to win to earn victories towards a medal. You could have played ALOT of games, won very few, and have zero medals.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby White Moose on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:11 am

vikprez wrote:
Iron Butterfly wrote:If one goes out and plays every style and map without winning and is still a cook but has a ton of medals THAT does not make them a better player.


How will he/she have a ton of medals if they don't win? You have to win to earn victories toward a medal.


You do know that medals can be achieved even if you suck?

You just have to play enough games.

I do think that most high ranked people arent especcially good.. they just play 1 set of games, and nothing else.

Most join new players who set up 1v1 freestyle games, you almost can't lose then.

But yes, medals do show how active you are in playing diffrent types of games etc, but its not nessecarily shows skill more than rank.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby vikprez on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:18 am

White Moose wrote:You do know that medals can be achieved even if you suck?

You just have to play enough games.


Totally correct...my point was you aren't going to see a cook with 20-25 medals. To achieve a ton of medals you do need wins, and with wins come points. Unless they had a terrible downfall after winning all their medals of course.

But yes, even if you suck you can still get 20 unique wins, 20 assassin kills, etc.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:26 am

rank and points have nothing to do with skill. let's assume a guy joins CC his name is JR24 :lol: he plays lots of freestyle 1v1 games vs noobs and he gets to almost 4000 points. (almost is important cause he was so frustratingly close) :lol:
then the medals are introduced and JR23 notices others have far more medals than him so he needs to get out there and play different games on different maps with different settings. 2 weeks later he's no longer in top 20 on the scoreboard, heck he's not even on the first page :shock: or second or third...he's way back on page 9 with a score of 1667. (yet his location still says: among the leets :lol: )
this kinda shows how skilled he is and how score means nothing on this site.


now we come to the medals. they're also in no way linked to the skill of players. if you play enough games you'll eventually get all of them. it's just a matter of time :lol:
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby White Moose on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:29 am

DiM wrote:rank and points have nothing to do with skill. let's assume a guy joins CC his name is JR24 :lol: he plays lots of freestyle 1v1 games vs noobs and he gets to almost 4000 points. (almost is important cause he was so frustratingly close) :lol:
then the medals are introduced and JR23 notices others have far more medals than him so he needs to get out there and play different games on different maps with different settings. 2 weeks later he's no longer in top 20 on the scoreboard, heck he's not even on the first page :shock: or second or third...he's way back on page 9 with a score of 1667. (yet his location still says: among the leets :lol: )
this kinda shows how skilled he is and how score means nothing on this site.


Like taken from my mouth, though i wouldn't say it out loud :P
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby trapyoung on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:30 am

i have no idea who you're talking about :shock:

on a completely unrelated note, anyone go to a johnny rocket's lately? they've got 24 different combinations for flavored sodas.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby DiM on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:40 am

White Moose wrote:
DiM wrote:rank and points have nothing to do with skill. let's assume a guy joins CC his name is JR24 :lol: he plays lots of freestyle 1v1 games vs noobs and he gets to almost 4000 points. (almost is important cause he was so frustratingly close) :lol:
then the medals are introduced and JR23 notices others have far more medals than him so he needs to get out there and play different games on different maps with different settings. 2 weeks later he's no longer in top 20 on the scoreboard, heck he's not even on the first page :shock: or second or third...he's way back on page 9 with a score of 1667. (yet his location still says: among the leets :lol: )
this kinda shows how skilled he is and how score means nothing on this site.


Like taken from my mouth, though i wouldn't say it out loud :P


i just had a revelation. he realised he can't become leet by getting to #1 so he decided to become leet the other way....by having a score of 1337 :lol: :lol: :lol:


PS: quick put him on ignore list for being a low ranker :mrgreen:
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby White Moose on Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:46 am

DiM wrote:
White Moose wrote:
DiM wrote:rank and points have nothing to do with skill. let's assume a guy joins CC his name is JR24 :lol: he plays lots of freestyle 1v1 games vs noobs and he gets to almost 4000 points. (almost is important cause he was so frustratingly close) :lol:
then the medals are introduced and JR23 notices others have far more medals than him so he needs to get out there and play different games on different maps with different settings. 2 weeks later he's no longer in top 20 on the scoreboard, heck he's not even on the first page :shock: or second or third...he's way back on page 9 with a score of 1667. (yet his location still says: among the leets :lol: )
this kinda shows how skilled he is and how score means nothing on this site.


Like taken from my mouth, though i wouldn't say it out loud :P


i just had a revelation. he realised he can't become leet by getting to #1 so he decided to become leet the other way....by having a score of 1337 :lol: :lol: :lol:


PS: quick put him on ignore list for being a low ranker :mrgreen:


Hahahaha :D
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Adino on Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:17 pm

I didnt read everything here, and i am sure this has been said before but anyway here is my 2 cents.
Metals are worthless at determining skill. They dont determine skill at all. When they came out I seriously considered starting 800 games of doodle earth 8 player assassins. Odds are I would win 100 of those, do that a few times around and without any skill whatsoever boom I have several metals. No it is far easier to abuse the new system, if no one went for the metals it might be fun, just to see what kinds of games people play, but since they are seen as an honor people will collect them, and they require no skill to collect at all, all you need is a high game count.

As for the way to break the point system it is harder than you might think to raise up the ranks. Sure there are easier ways to do it, like playing the same map all the time, but eventually you will loose. And that loss costs you 10 wins at high point values. The point system was exploitable but not nearly as much as this new setup is.

I also hate the new ranking systems. But that’s for another post.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Ditocoaf on Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:17 pm

Hmm... I have an interesting idea. Medals divided by # games played. That would be a better indication of skill, no?

maybe?
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby White Moose on Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:23 pm

Ditocoaf wrote:Hmm... I have an interesting idea. Medals divided by # games played. That would be a better indication of skill, no?

maybe?


That would be like.... normal win%... (really close at least)

Soo..
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Ditocoaf on Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:28 pm

White Moose wrote:
Ditocoaf wrote:Hmm... I have an interesting idea. Medals divided by # games played. That would be a better indication of skill, no?

maybe?


That would be like.... normal win%... (really close at least)

Soo..

That's like saying # of medals is like # of wins...
This stat, like medals, would be based on people defeated, not games. Also, it would be rewarding flexibility, like medals do. But it would compensate for the "sheer number of games" factor.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby White Moose on Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:48 pm

Ditocoaf wrote:
White Moose wrote:
Ditocoaf wrote:Hmm... I have an interesting idea. Medals divided by # games played. That would be a better indication of skill, no?

maybe?


That would be like.... normal win%... (really close at least)

Soo..

That's like saying # of medals is like # of wins...
This stat, like medals, would be based on people defeated, not games.


Well.. it isnt far from it.
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby Scott-Land on Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:05 pm

Really- why is everyone so concerned with JaneBlow's medal count ? Does it really matter how many she has- will you respect any more in the morning ? I think not....

It's just an indicator of the various styles and maps one plays- no?
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Re: Why medals are far better than rank.

Postby White Moose on Sun Jul 06, 2008 6:06 pm

Scott-Land wrote:It's just an indicator of the various styles and maps one plays- no?


Correct
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