Permanent banning and pm's

[hecter]

Are foe lists unavailable with a permabanning?

I think lack made it so that they are now... They weren't before though.

[Optimus Prime]

It makes sense that permanent banning includes preventing a player from viewing and sending PMs.

Yeah. It's absolutely natural, considering Forum as a realm. But there is another realm, we could call it Gaming Space. The later one isn't complete without an internal communication tool. So Lack had to make one, or (more practical) to borrow it from Forum.
If those two realms were both complete and independent, we wouldn't have a problem. But they aren't and we have a problem.

If you properly ban somebody from Forum, you are actually violating his rights in Gaming Space. So CC should improve whether technical or legal construction...

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

[gordon1975]

would the problem not simply be solved if people didnt act like arses in the first place to get there bans ?

[Optimus Prime]

would the problem not simply be solved if people didnt act like arses in the first place to get there bans ?

You would think, wouldn't you?

[Zemljanin]

As has been stated multiple times in this thread, you do not pay to use the forums;

I didn't see your post before I wrote my former one. By you should read it anyway, since it contains an answer to this...

Notice that none of the items on the list mention the forums of any other type of "comfortable service of internal communication."

Creating private games is meaningless if you have no way to invite people. And I think that CC is obligated to provide you (an internal ) tool for that purpose. (Note that I didn't even note players' unwritten right - to receive invitations...)

[Zemljanin]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

EDIT: Second question seems irrelevant, as Herakilla cleverly noted. But I still insist on first one...

would the problem not simply be solved if people didnt act like arses in the first place to get there bans ?

You would think, wouldn't you?

I complete agree

[Herakilla]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

[InkL0sed]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

But you can't tell a person to come to chat...

[Herakilla]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

But you can't tell a person to come to chat...

so far you and a couple other people have been very generous to tom ink usually one of you even reads him his wall

[firth4eva]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

But you can't tell a person to come to chat...

so far you and a couple other people have been very generous to tom ink usually one of you even reads him his wall

Please stay on topic.

[Herakilla]

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

But you can't tell a person to come to chat...

so far you and a couple other people have been very generous to tom ink usually one of you even reads him his wall

Please stay on topic.[/quote]

lol i am telling you how perma banned people can still communicate even without PMs and walls

[mandalorian2298]

would the problem not simply be solved if people didnt act like arses in the first place to get there bans ?

I don't think that would be possible. If you consider the fact that even guys who try to suck up to the Mods are flaming outside of Flame Wars, then there is little chance that normal people can refrain from doing such bad, bad things.

[firth4eva]

Yes but you expect people to hang in live chat all day just to communicate with people?

[dividedbyzero]

Creating private games is meaningless if you have no way to invite people. And I think that CC is obligated to provide you (an internal ) tool for that purpose. (Note that I didn't even note players' unwritten right - to receive invitations...)

CC is obligated to do nothing. This isn't some sort of public service agency. It's a private enterprise. They give you the option of specific services, you choose whether or not you want to use them. You also choose whether or not you want to pay for additional privileges.

There are no laws governing this other than those of economics - if a business does not provide the services you desire, you are free to shop elsewhere or even start your own to compete.

There are no rights. There are no obligations. There's nothing promised to you, really. When you do break the handful of rules on here repeatedly, you will get some of those services removed. This gives you even less "right" to anything. If you are given multiple chances to fix your behavior and you still choose not to, you then have chosen to not have all of the provided services available to you. You *chose* that route. No one forces people to get banned.

Vote with your feet (or fingers, in the case of online services). There are no entitlements. Period.

[hulmey]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

omg you mods are unbelievable. Imagine joining CC and not being able to pm anyone about tactics (doubles,trips and/or quads). Also imagine the problems you would face in sending game numbers to your peers! Pm'ing is an necessary part of gaming on CC. You can not conduct these kinds of things over LIVE chat.

[hulmey]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

But you can't tell a person to come to chat...

[hulmey]

Creating private games is meaningless if you have no way to invite people. And I think that CC is obligated to provide you (an internal ) tool for that purpose. (Note that I didn't even note players' unwritten right - to receive invitations...)

CC is obligated to do nothing. This isn't some sort of public service agency. It's a private enterprise. They give you the option of specific services, you choose whether or not you want to use them. You also choose whether or not you want to pay for additional privileges.

There are no laws governing this other than those of economics - if a business does not provide the services you desire, you are free to shop elsewhere or even start your own to compete.

There are no rights. There are no obligations. There's nothing promised to you, really. When you do break the handful of rules on here repeatedly, you will get some of those services removed. This gives you even less "right" to anything. If you are given multiple chances to fix your behavior and you still choose not to, you then have chosen to not have all of the provided services available to you. You *chose* that route. No one forces people to get banned.

Vote with your feet (or fingers, in the case of online services). There are no entitlements. Period.

your incorrect. your paying for a product and CC would fall under Consumer rights of were their servers are based. People always have rights, its just most of them(people) dont know about them

[dividedbyzero]

your incorrect. your paying for a product and CC would fall under Consumer rights of were their servers are based. People always have rights, its just most of them(people) dont know about them

Okay, so show me some proof of these rights ? Are there laws (Canadian) showing your right to being able to PM ?

Your sense of entitlement is showing again. The problem here still comes down to the fact that the people that can't access PMs have broken the rules repeatedly.

It's sort of like voting in the US. You have a right to vote if you meet the requirements - age, citizenship, etc. You lose that right to vote when you are convicted of a felony. It's a drastic example, but it rings about the same.

I somehow suspect this is an argument you aren't going to win with Lack. Maybe he should institute a "pay for another membership" rule like with multis to get access to PM back ? Then if someone breaks the rules again, they lose it again and have to pay again. And again.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. If you continually break the rules and continually get warned, why should you expect not to get punished ? Is it your "right" to get to do whatever you want whenever you want ?

[hulmey]

your incorrect. your paying for a product and CC would fall under Consumer rights of were their servers are based. People always have rights, its just most of them(people) dont know about them

Okay, so show me some proof of these rights ? Are there laws (Canadian) showing your right to being able to PM ?

Your sense of entitlement is showing again. The problem here still comes down to the fact that the people that can't access PMs have broken the rules repeatedly.

It's sort of like voting in the US. You have a right to vote if you meet the requirements - age, citizenship, etc. You lose that right to vote when you are convicted of a felony. It's a drastic example, but it rings about the same.

I somehow suspect this is an argument you aren't going to win with Lack. Maybe he should institute a "pay for another membership" rule like with multis to get access to PM back ? Then if someone breaks the rules again, they lose it again and have to pay again. And again.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. If you continually break the rules and continually get warned, why should you expect not to get punished ? Is it your "right" to get to do whatever you want whenever you want ?

hmm....rules are rules and without them there would be anarchy. Im not thinking lack would change anything regarding pms, because he has done it for a reason. Yes you break forum rules and you get forum banned, not forum banned and lose your ability to send pm's. The 2 things are quite different!

[Night Strike]

First people complained about forum banned members being unable to play speed games and use the friend/foe list. Those bugs were fixed

Now people are complaining about forum banned people being unable to send PMs. If that's changed, why don't they just go ahead and ask for full or partial posting abilities? Seems to be the logical flow of demands in my view.

There are many people who do not use the forums or live chat, yet I'm guessing many of them also make private games. I'm curious as to how many actually use the PMs to invite players. Most will play private games with their friends (who they probably know in real life or at least IM), or they will have a rematch with other players from their games.

Private Messaging is a forum feature; people do get vacations/bans for abusing it. A banned player can still contact the administration with any problems by submitting an e-ticket, so any argument about not being able to contact those in charge is invalid. If they want to play private games with people, I suggest they stick with their friends who they already know in Live Chat or IM, or get a friend to PM those they want in a game.

[Optimus Prime]

Oh guys, how fast you are

Wrong, there is still Live Chat. They don't need PMs to communicate. Pay attention.

How can I invite someone to live chat? And how can I tell him a password without others seeing it?

You can create private rooms, and there is even a private message function in chat

But you can't tell a person to come to chat...

And yet... if you really want them in your game bad enough, there are plenty of other options as already discussed in this thread. PMs are part of the forum, a player has been forum banned, therefore loss of PM privileges is part of their consequence. They know that, and they continue to press the rules and thereby get banned. Once that happens, it is no longer CC's problem. They got themselves into the mess, they can deal with it.

As for their privilege (not a "right" by any means) to receive invitations... perhaps they should have behaved, then perhaps they wouldn't have that problem now would they?

When you buy premium you buy private games, speed games, and unlimited games, you do not in any way purchase PM ability, forum access, or anything else. It's that simple, so stop whining about it.

[dividedbyzero]

hmm....rules are rules and without them there would be anarchy. Im not thinking lack would change anything regarding pms, because he has done it for a reason. Yes you break forum rules and you get forum banned, not forum banned and lose your ability to send pm's. The 2 things are quite different!

PMs are a privilege. One could successfully argue that this is a gaming site. The social aspect is secondary. PMs are primarily a social function (game callouts, etc). Since there are adequate functions outside of CC to communicate (email, IM, private boards, etc), it's hard to say that lack of PMs causes a hardship. The PM system is apparently viewed as part of the forums. If you want that aspect changed, my suggestion would be to put together a convincing argument, submitted respectfully to the management. Crying foul in the forum may rally people to your cause but probably won't endear you to the people that can actually effect change.

I call it the "catch more flies with honey" approach. When mob mentality rules, the people/person that OWN the site may not wish to succumb to that lest it undermine authority. I still see no evidence of any "rights" being trampled. I do see a privilege taken away that may not necessarily fit the crime. To quote you, the 2 things are quite different.

[mandalorian2298]

First people complained about forum banned members being unable to play speed games and use the friend/foe list. Those bugs were fixed

Now people are complaining about forum banned people being unable to send PMs. If that's changed, why don't they just go ahead and ask for full or partial posting abilities? Seems to be the logical flow of demands in my view.

There are many people who do not use the forums or live chat, yet I'm guessing many of them also make private games. I'm curious as to how many actually use the PMs to invite players. Most will play private games with their friends (who they probably know in real life or at least IM), or they will have a rematch with other players from their games.

Private Messaging is a forum feature; people do get vacations/bans for abusing it. A banned player can still contact the administration with any problems by submitting an e-ticket, so any argument about not being able to contact those in charge is invalid. If they want to play private games with people, I suggest they stick with their friends who they already know in Live Chat or IM, or get a friend to PM those they want in a game.

But, if we assume that the point of a permanent forum ban is protecting the other forum viewers from the spam, trolling etc. then it makes no sense to automatically issue a PM ban with it. It is not reasonable to automatically assume that a person that kept posting in a way that ruffled some feathers (like Norse) will also abuse PMing system.

The reason why mods are issuing PM bans along with the permanent forum bans has nothing to do with "protecting other users" or with "keeping the forums fun for everyone". You are doing it because permanent bans are mostly handed out unfairly and you wish to isolate those users so that they can't complain to their friends. Luckily for you, there is no way for those users to create another account strictly for PMing purposes. Or is there?

[lancehoch]

But, if we assume that the point of a permanent forum ban is protecting the other forum viewers from the spam, trolling etc. then it makes no sense to automatically issue a PM ban with it. It is not reasonable to automatically assume that a person that kept posting in a way that ruffled some feathers (like Norse) will also abuse PMing system.

The reason why mods are issuing PM bans along with the permanent forum bans has nothing to do with "protecting other users" or with "keeping the forums fun for everyone". You are doing it because permanent bans are mostly handed out unfairly and you wish to isolate those users so that they can't complain to their friends. Luckily for you, there is no way for those users to create another account strictly for PMing purposes. Or is there?

This is patently absurd and completely untrue. As has been seen with the recent permabanning of IPH, he has come back to the site using multis and has been sending out blanket PMs to tons of people. It is abuse such as this, where banned people are using PMs to promote their own agenda, that cause lack to remove PM privileges from banned members. Again, a PM system is a privilege, not a right by any means. If there was no forum or PM system or Live Chat, the site would still be here, and people would still have the same functionality for which they paid the $25 premium fee. Would people set up an outside forum, probably, as has already been done (TUC has hosted their forum offsite so that other people can see their discussions and now that gives t-o-m the ability to converse with his clan members). Also, the gaming half of the site and the forum half of the site operate separately. People have firsthand experience of this when they keep getting asked to logon while trying to play their games, they have been logged into the forums, but not the games. If lack were to host the games half of the site under a different name and at a different URL, would anyone know that they are connected? Yes, but would they know that it is the same person running the games, probably not.
On another note, it has been said in this thread that the PM system is run off of phpBB and is connected to the forums (this is the same reason why banned members could not see their profiles in the past). Yes, lack could possibly try to hack the code and separate PM ability from forum viewing ability, but he has said that he intentionally did not give banned members the ability to PM. He has also stated that he would rather not mess with the phpBB code if possible.
I know people love to complain, but this is not a battle that will be won in the forums. lack has already ruled on this.

[hecter]

This is patently absurd and completely untrue. As has been seen with the recent permabanning of IPH, he has come back to the site using multis and has been sending out blanket PMs to tons of people.

It's also clear proof that no matter how hard you try, wrong-doers are still going to find ways to promote their agenda.