England Map [Quenched]

[oaktown]

I'm liking this map a lot... it's clean and simple, which we don't seem to value these days.

Things to consider:

There's a LOT of dead space, especially up north. It's an awkwardly shaped map to begin with, and I'm not sure you can do anything about it, but you could at least do some little things like putting the northumberland army count lower so I don't have to scroll up on my monitor just to see it.

Road sign legend... cute, but what does it have to do with the rest of the map? I don't see any roads.

I'm always a fan of build-your-own-bonuses. You may need more clarity - is that any three territories in each region, or in the entire north? (In looking at the map is has to be the entire north, but clarfication can't help.) And if I hold 6 North territories, do I get two +1 bonuses? Because that would really change gameplay.

I'm wondering at what frequency somebody will start with a bonus. Almost certainly somebody will drop three of the nine north territories... and four of the 15 south terits... and 5 of the 20ish midlands territories. I think this gives a huge advantage to whomever goes first - in a typical two or three player game the first player is likely to start with a a bonus of six on top of his usual drop of three - game over. Even in a four player game the first play will have at least one bonus.

Connect your Isle!

[the.killing.44]

I do like the new gameplay with the individual bonuses, but to be honest, I don't think the road sign belongs here. The map is very artistic while clear with this textured, realistic terrain look. But the sign, it really doesn't suit that. Like oak said, I don't spot a road on the map. So in all honesty, I'd revert back to the old way you had it and just put the bonus values over on the right.

Oh, and

Connect your Isle!

.44

[MrBenn]

Thanks for the feedback - here's another update with some changes...

• Some of the very pale blue/white bits of sea around the coast of Yorkshire were a bit pixelly, so I've smoothed that out a bit.
• The position of a couple of army numbers and region names have been moved slightly (North East and South West).
• In order to help bring the roadsign-themed legend into play, the main road network of the country has been added to the background of the map.... I'm not too sure if it adds a bit too much detail or not, but it only took about an hour(!)

Points for debate/discussion:

• The bonus structure... I'm still flexible on the bonuses... how about these as alternative suggestions: North +2 for 4(of 9); South +3 for 5(of 15); Midlands +5 for 7 (of 19).... the bonuses for actual regions would then be adjusted so that they remained more or less as I suggested before... Any/all thought appreciated...
• 'Build your own' - currently I've written 'Any x terrs'.... although in myu head I've got 'Every x terrs'. I've just realised that the 'No territory bonus' text has been dropped since I've rejigged the legend. Please bear this in mind when thinking about the gameplay...
• Isle of Wight - does it really need an obvious connection to Hampshire, or is it fine as it is?

[the.killing.44]

I like the roads … maybe a stroke would help them stand out a bit more (but at a low opacity mind you!)

And I've been looking at the sign for a bit … I think it's the gray posts holding the sign up that unnerve me, although (sorry) I still think that it's better just to scrap it.

.44

[yeti_c]

Now that you've changed the bonus structure - can Glos get back into it's spiritual home of the south west?

I don't like the full quote either - having "Green and pleasant land" twice is odd.

C.

[danfrank]

I like the roads … maybe a stroke would help them stand out a bit more (but at a low opacity mind you!)

And I've been looking at the sign for a bit … I think it's the gray posts holding the sign up that unnerve me, although (sorry) I still think that it's better just to scrap it.

.44

well the sign is clearly a sign you would find on a highway or road.. how can you have roads with no signs.. I agree that the roads need to be brought out a little.. But the grey posts and highway sign stay

[the.killing.44]

the grey posts and highway sign stay

Good to know you're the decision maker.
I just noticed, obviously Thames = Thames Valley but for clarity's sake maybe it's best just to keep it as Thames in the legend as well?
I hold true to my sentiment of the road sign.

.44

P.S. don't think this is blackmail or anything (lol) but I'll be stamping this one for Graphics

[danfrank]

the grey posts and highway sign stay

Good to know you're the decision maker.
I just noticed, obviously Thames = Thames Valley but for clarity's sake maybe it's best just to keep it as Thames in the legend as well?
I hold true to my sentiment of the road sign.

.44

P.S. don't think this is blackmail or anything (lol) but I'll be stamping this one for Graphics

[the.killing.44]

Well its clear your an ASSHOLE.. To think that pulling rank would be a wise choice...

It was a joke … sheesh.

.44

[Merciless Wong]

Well its clear your an ASSHOLE.. To think that pulling rank would be a wise choice...

It was a joke … sheesh.

.44

Trust me danfrank, don't waste any more time working on your map. As I've learnt the hard way in Prince of the City, stamp controllers can rationalize anything and waste a lot of your work so unless you are totally sure he is not joking, I wouldn't sink in any effort on your idea after that exchange because if he isn't joking, he'll get to subtly block your project or hold it to a higher standard after you've sunk in a ridiculous amount of work.

Then again, bit late now .

I'm joking too..by the way.

I have to agree with him though. The street sign look is modern.The quote from Jerusaleum is not so modern. There is a dissonance here.

Mr Benn,

Aren't you going to run into that problem of 2v2 games having players starting with bonuses again?

I see you gave in and incorporated the full poem. I'm wondering if all the guys who said my comments were totally off base and motivated by bias are now going to thrash the map creators.

[Teflon Kris]

Graphics
I'm not too sure about the road sign either, although I'm not sure that would be a reason to hold back on stamping.

Its a good point that the road sign would be more consistent with the map if the background road system were more visible.

Also true that the whole roads thing isn't so consistent with C19th counties - but no major issue.

The big problem in my eyes is the base of the sign - it kind of dissappears under the south-west.

Basically, I can see you really want something to fill the Wales space but I'm not sure this solution does justice to the map. Wish I had a better idea - maybe a dragon (& thistle for Scotland)? Maybe not. Wales is a nice shape anyway, I'm sure everyone would be happy with the bonus explanation on the right of the map and Wales just being Wales.

Gameplay
I like the amendments to any 3 terits in the North etc (assuming I got that right - you'd get +2 if you had NE + say, Lancashire?). Nice system. Question: +2 for 6 terits in the North etc? I think oak thought this through well above in suggesting it is +1 for 3 and that's it (no +1 for every 3).

The NE issue is now well resolved.

show: General Stamping Discussion

[Merciless Wong]

I get an approx 36% chance of a starting bonus in East Anglia with that 3 for 5 bonus in 7 territories thing in a 2v2 game.

Every 1 of the 7 would go to player 1 or player 2.
There are 2 to the power of 7 = 128 scenarios.
Of the 128, I count 46 that start with bonus for player 1 or player 2.

2 scenario , p1 or p2 gets it all
14 scenarios, p1 or p2 gets all but 1
30 scenarios, p1 or p2 gets all but 2

If I compounded these for all provinces, people would be starting with bonuses in 2 versus 2 pretty regularly

[MrBenn]

1v1=Shit Happens

[sailorseal]

Wong MrB is not shy about giving out bans for spamming the Foundry, you walk a fine line, I would quit now


About the map:
The new sign I don't think fits, I am glad to see the inset leave, but I see no fault in anything else (No major fault )

[Merciless Wong]

[mod edit: removed spam/baiting]
-------------------------------

On my comment. Just doing the math for you, Incanton's start with bonuses on the drop comment still applies. If you wish to ignore, that's your call, thohse in the foundry with stamps seem to have more leeway to ignore feedback than the humble first timers.

The bonuses on this map are the one thing that I am not satisfied with. I love the 'build-your-own' region style of play, and wish there were more maps that utilised it.

the build-ur-own 3-county bonus zones, while innovative, do potentially make the start of each game a complete lottery. someone is virtually certain to start with at least one +2 bonus and, the more bonuses are held from the drop, the more likely that player 1 starts with an unassailable advantage. the only way i see for the build-ur-own bonus system to be fair is for the whole map to be divided by region, with each region consisting totally of its own starting positions, meaning that no-one can possibly start with a bonus in 1v1 (there is a 12% chance of team 1 starting with the north-east in 2v2, though i think we can live with that if 1v1 is solved).


ian.

[MrBenn]

yeti_c: Now that you've changed the bonus structure - can Glos get back into it's spiritual home of the south west?
Sure thing I never really wanted in the West Mids, but it made more sense with the previous incarnation of the gameplay.

yeti_c:I don't like the full quote either - having "Green and pleasant land" twice is odd.
It grates with me too. The decision is to either drop it completely, cut it back to the first line "I will not cease from mental fight, nor shall my sword sleep in my hand", or add in another relevant quote.. I think I'll just cut it down a bit and see how that goes ...

the.killing.44: I just noticed, obviously Thames = Thames Valley but for clarity's sake maybe it's best just to keep it as Thames in the legend as well?
The region name is Thames Valley, so it would be preferable to add 'Valley' to the map if possible. If I can;t get it to fit, then I'll have another think about it, although I prefer it with the proper region name on the legend, at least.

danfrank: well the sign is clearly a sign you would find on a highway or road.. how can you have roads with no signs.. I agree that the roads need to be brought out a little.. But the grey posts and highway sign stay
The idea for the green sign evolved during my daily commute (I pass several of them every day!), and struck me as a nice way of depicting the new differentiated bonuses.

Merciless Wong: The street sign look is modern.The quote from Jerusaleum is not so modern. There is a dissonance here.
Now it's on the map, it doesn;t seem to fit quite as well as I'd hoped I don;t know if it's just the style of the posts doesn;t blend properly, or whether the sign is just a bit too clean? I can make the background roads a little bit more visible, but am keen to keep them as subtle as possible

DJ Teflon: Basically, I can see you really want something to fill the Wales space but I'm not sure this solution does justice to the map. Wish I had a better idea - maybe a dragon (& thistle for Scotland)? Maybe not. Wales is a nice shape anyway, I'm sure everyone would be happy with the bonus explanation on the right of the map and Wales just being Wales.
The biggest problem with that, is the lack of space over on the right (where the instructions used to be). I don't really want to have a plain inset box, but perhaps there could be some heraldic device I could use (although this might up just looking a bit cluttered)... perhaps some kind of callout box with a slight opacity might work??? Hmmm, maybe not? I'll have a play with it and see what happens


I'll have a further think about gameplay options when I can give it some proper thought

[Merciless Wong]

Merciless Wong: The street sign look is modern.The quote from Jerusaleum is not so modern. There is a dissonance here.

Now it's on the map, it doesn;t seem to fit quite as well as I'd hoped I don;t know if it's just the style of the posts doesn;t blend properly, or whether the sign is just a bit too clean? I can make the background roads a little bit more visible, but am keen to keep them as subtle as possible

Wooden sign would work.

[MrBenn]

Wooden sign would work.

Hmmm.... ....Nice idea

[Merciless Wong]

Truly on that bonus start thing in 1v1, I've looked at the problem again it really will be almost certain in 1v1.

On 2v2:

For 7 territs with 5 to get a starting bonus..

You have 4^7 possibilities =16384 possibilities

For 1 guy to have 5 he can have:

Everything
1 possibility x 4 (for each player)
Everything except 1
7 possibilies x 4 (for each player) x 3 (number of players that can have the remaining 1
Everything except 2
21 possibilities (combinations of 2 fom 7) x 4 x 3 x 3 (number of players to have remaining 2)

Sum all this over 4 ^ 7 - you get 5%

Across 4 provinces. Your chance of having at least one with a starting bonus
(making the broad assumption there are 4 provinces with potential problems and similar probability of a problem to save enumerating the other cases) I get about a 80% chance = (1 -0.05%) ^ 4 that there will be no starting bonuses.

Starting bonuses in 2v2 will occur 20% of the time.

**** update- math on this is off. The 5% or so is right for the middle but the North and South bonuses will occur way more easily even in 2v2. For 4 territories, the chance of someone starting with 3 in 2 v2 is

4^4 = 256 possibilities
4 x 1 =4 (1 player has it all)
4 x 4 x 3 =48 )1 player has all but one)
52/256 = 20% chance of starting bonus in the north territory with 4 terits and a bonus on getting 3
*****

I'd do your negotiation with game play stampholder and finish that before you work on the sign - I suspect that's the one thing keeping this map from being out there.

[Merciless Wong]

Re: Route 66: page 3 update

Postby oaktown » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:08 pm

MrBenn wrote:Just so I get this straight in my head - you're planning on fixing the positions for 1v1 games using starting positions, as laid out above?

For more than 1v1 games, those same positions would be dealt out randomly? Is that right?


Correct. Two starting positions only, so they'd be ignored in games of 3 or more players.

Well that trick would solve your 1 on 1 problem. Still the 2 v2 problem though....Look at route 66 - the neutral placement there prevents starting bonuses

[oaktown]

Well that trick would solve your 1 on 1 problem. Still the 2 v2 problem though....Look at route 66 - the neutral placement there prevents starting bonuses

Neutral placement would solve starting bonuses on any map, but it that doesn't necessarily make the map better. There are clear disadvantages to coding a map with a bunch of starting neutrals - and as it is this map would require a lot.

And I don't think we can bring Route 66 into this conversation - the gameplay on that map is entirely different, and is designed to start with a high number of neutrals. Maps with a more 'classic' gameplay are less fun when played on a largely neutral landscape.

Since i hate 1v1 games and think they almost always come down to who goes first, my heart agrees with MrBenn... shit happens. But I get that 1v1 is a popular setting, and the question of starting bonuses is a problem in more than just 1v1 games (as i brought up a week ago). Three suggestions:

1. By coding some territories into two starting positions you can significantly reduce the odds by spreading players out and breaking up some regions - I wouldn't go so far as to code every territory, just enough to shuffle the starts a bit.

2. Increase the # or territories you need for the make-your-own bonuses.

3. Up north it's already so easy to pick up a small region I'd say lose the extra bonus up there regardless of what you decide. Just make northwest a +3 and Yorkshire a +2 and split those regions up on the start via the starting positions.

And I'm not following why wong is so concerned about starting bonuses in 2v2 games - teams can't share a region to collect a bonus. If player 1 wants to evacuate a territory to set his partner up for a bonus, that's a part of smart team play on any map.

What was the verdict... is it +1 for ANY three territories, or for EVERY three territories? Very different things, requiring different XML.

[sailorseal]

Just to start with a note about size, I would hope you will make this the big map because I can already feel the anger of having to make a scroll down to assault, coming over me. Correct me if I am wrong but the map seems to have the style of a very "earthy", British feeling map. This is why I am opposed to the sign, it agrees with the latter of those two but highly disagrees with the first. I would fear Rutland being so small that any army count over 99 would cause problems but it is not on a border to hold a bonus so I would ignore any negative comments on it. I would also have Thames have a bonus of 4 because it is in such an awkward spot to hold.
Nice map!

[the.killing.44]

I can already feel the anger of having to make a scroll down to assault, coming over me.

Just use the small map for chissakes.

.44

[sailorseal]

I can already feel the anger of having to make a scroll down to assault, coming over me.

Just use the small map for chissakes.

.44

I understand that please read my entire post

[the.killing.44]

I understand that please read my entire post

Ah, yes, I'm wrong you're right. He'd totally make the small map 150px over the limit.

.44