Logic dictates that there is a God!

[got tonkaed]

i dont disagree with your contention, but i wonder if the difference in lifespan between bacteria used in that study is comparable to the lifespan of a human being...How many generations were used in the 15 years in the study?

[jay_a2j]

ok, let me try to address a few posts at once. Maybe I'm incorrect but I was under the impression that evolution is a very slow process in which a life form becomes a different life form. A bacteria changing but still being a bacteria is not evolution. If the bacteria (over time) became a fish, that would be evolution.

Speech is learned. If you have a non-speaking animal and none is around to teach it to speak, it will never speak. This is true for humans as well...If a baby was born and never exposed to human speech, it would never speak. So where did language come from? Once speech is in existence of course it "evolves" you already have the foundation of speech.

But a bunch of, lets say apes, will never develop the ability to speak on their own. Because speech is a LEARNED behavior.


If you follow the Bible you cannot believe that God used evolution in the process of creation because it states that God created animals "each according to its kind" not one animal that became another. And man was created "from the dust of the Earth" not an ape.

[unriggable]

i dont disagree with your contention, but i wonder if the difference in lifespan between bacteria used in that study is comparable to the lifespan of a human being...How many generations were used in the 15 years in the study?

Many, a bacteria doesn't live for too long, and an ameoba lives for two days before dividing - I don't remember the details of the experiment (actually that part was a screw up, the person was doing another experiment and the solution got contaminated, most amobas died but a few actually lived and that is where this new breed of amoebas began - that is natural selection for you btw) other than the fact that there were I think several thousand bacteria inside each ameoba.

[unriggable]

Heyyy I look at your post and your avatar is a polar bear, then I post a reply and now your avatar is the mets?! Whoa...

[got tonkaed]

one could certainly pose that language could have evolved over a period of time. If we look at some anthropological studies its possible to see that in animals, ritual behavior develops especially when there is some form of partial or intermittent reinforcement involved. Essentially, if something works one time, such as perhaps making noises to try and stop the rain, like chimpanzees have been known to do, it is possible the animal (or in our case person) decides that it was their noise making that caused the rain to stop, when clearly there isnt a causal link. However, intermittent reinforcement quite often leads to long lasting behaviors as its likely that early people would have been unsure whether or not they were making the proper noises, which could possible create differentation in sounds. Certainly no one is saying that we go from grunt to language in a day or so, but humans have been shown capable of such cognative behavior that overtime language could certainly have developed.

In a somewhat related theme to the thread, prayer is the great example of intermittent reinforcement, if a prayer is answered but once, or is even intrepreted as being answered, it becomes a habit which becomes incredibly resistant to breaking.

[Guiscard]

ok, let me try to address a few posts at once. Maybe I'm incorrect but I was under the impression that evolution is a very slow process in which a life form becomes a different life form. A bacteria changing but still being a bacteria is not evolution. If the bacteria (over time) became a fish, that would be evolution.

Speech is learned. If you have a non-speaking animal and none is around to teach it to speak, it will never speak. This is true for humans as well...If a baby was born and never exposed to human speech, it would never speak. So where did language come from? Once speech is in existence of course it "evolves" you already have the foundation of speech.

But a bunch of, lets say apes, will never develop the ability to speak on their own. Because speech is a LEARNED behavior.


If you follow the Bible you cannot believe that God used evolution in the process of creation because it states that God created animals "each according to its kind" not one animal that became another. And man was created "from the dust of the Earth" not an ape.

No. There is a huge body of scientific work on the subject, and yes language evolved just as any other function. The apes who could grunt and indicate where the best area for food was would obviously get the best food. Therefore, those with the most food would be most likely to survive, and so on and so on until grunts became simple 'words' as it were (or more the sounds objects made e.g. perhaps a growl in the style of a big cat would mean don't go to this area there are predators). Those who were most efficient at using this proto-langauge would be more likely to survive, and so on and so on. Our language has developed throughout written history as well. The Greeks had only a few words for different colours (an article on this and the egyptians before them had even fewer words in their vocabulary. Now we have a myriad of words for emotions, concepts, perceptions etc. etc. Our use of language evolves constantly.

If a baby was born without access to human speech you are correct in that he wouldn't learn to speek on his own, but if he were in a tribe of people who didn't speak eventually the ones who could indicate verbally where food or danger was would be more successful and language would evolve.

[unriggable]

ok, let me try to address a few posts at once. Maybe I'm incorrect but I was under the impression that evolution is a very slow process in which a life form becomes a different life form. A bacteria changing but still being a bacteria is not evolution. If the bacteria (over time) became a fish, that would be evolution.

Speech is learned. If you have a non-speaking animal and none is around to teach it to speak, it will never speak. This is true for humans as well...If a baby was born and never exposed to human speech, it would never speak. So where did language come from? Once speech is in existence of course it "evolves" you already have the foundation of speech.

But a bunch of, lets say apes, will never develop the ability to speak on their own. Because speech is a LEARNED behavior.


If you follow the Bible you cannot believe that God used evolution in the process of creation because it states that God created animals "each according to its kind" not one animal that became another. And man was created "from the dust of the Earth" not an ape.

No. There is a huge body of scientific work on the subject, and yes language evolved just as any other function. The apes who could grunt and indicate where the best area for food was would obviously get the best food. Therefore, those with the most food would be most likely to survive, and so on and so on until grunts became simple 'words' as it were (or more the sounds objects made e.g. perhaps a growl in the style of a big cat would mean don't go to this area there are predators). Those who were most efficient at using this proto-langauge would be more likely to survive, and so on and so on. Our language has developed throughout written history as well. The Greeks had only a few words for different colours (an article on this and the egyptians before them had even fewer words in their vocabulary. Now we have a myriad of words for emotions, concepts, perceptions etc. etc. Our use of language evolves constantly.

If a baby was born without access to human speech you are correct in that he wouldn't learn to speek on his own, but if he were in a tribe of people who didn't speak eventually the ones who could indicate verbally where food or danger was would be more successful and language would evolve.

Plus you can see humans used to make use of hand signals and such, that's why we talk with our hands.

[neoni]

ok, let me try to address a few posts at once. Maybe I'm incorrect but I was under the impression that evolution is a very slow process in which a life form becomes a different life form. A bacteria changing but still being a bacteria is not evolution. If the bacteria (over time) became a fish, that would be evolution.

Speech is learned. If you have a non-speaking animal and none is around to teach it to speak, it will never speak. This is true for humans as well...If a baby was born and never exposed to human speech, it would never speak. So where did language come from? Once speech is in existence of course it "evolves" you already have the foundation of speech.

But a bunch of, lets say apes, will never develop the ability to speak on their own. Because speech is a LEARNED behavior.


If you follow the Bible you cannot believe that God used evolution in the process of creation because it states that God created animals "each according to its kind" not one animal that became another. And man was created "from the dust of the Earth" not an ape.

apes will never speak because the position of the vocal chords in their throats won't allow it. but if you think animals don't communicate, you might want to research how dolphins or meerkats breed, of course all animals do but these are particularly good examples.

[Guiscard]

apes will never speak because the position of the vocal chords in their throats won't allow it. but if you think animals don't communicate, you might want to research how dolphins or meerkats breed, of course all animals do but these are particularly good examples.

(I know you're on the side of evolution but...)

Those apes with the genetic mutation of their vocal chords being placed differently could well have an advantage in that they are able to articulate more complex sounds, and so are more likely to survive. Eventually this becomes speech through millions of years of evolution. Its not that they will never speak, just that evolution must take place for that to happen.

[neoni]

apes will never speak because the position of the vocal chords in their throats won't allow it. but if you think animals don't communicate, you might want to research how dolphins or meerkats breed, of course all animals do but these are particularly good examples.

(I know you're on the side of evolution but...)

Those apes with the genetic mutation of their vocal chords being placed differently could well have an advantage in that they are able to articulate more complex sounds, and so are more likely to survive. Eventually this becomes speech through millions of years of evolution. Its not that they will never speak, just that evolution must take place for that to happen.

aye but i'm trying to avoid that because he'll just say "evolution never happens because the bible says so!!"

unfortunately, logic and reason doesn't convince people whose argument is built on non-logic from the start

[unriggable]

unfortunately, logic and reason doesn't convince people whose argument is built on non-logic from the start

They're logic is "If it happens by chance, how do we end up like this?"

[Chad22342]

EVER CONSIDER ALIENSSSSSSS!!!!!

[Chad22342]

because honestly i think religion is crap(my oppinion) and i think that aliens put us here for decoration

[Backglass]

They're logic is "If it happens by chance, how do we end up like this?"

The irony is this.

We say that over a practically infinite number of years (billions), life slowly evolved on our planet. They laugh at this and claim that the chances of this happening are so incredibly tiny, it's impossible.

Then in the next breath they say they have a supernatural god that snapped his fingers and everything appeared. He also happens to be infinite. And they see this as perfectly reasonable.



If you ask a modern day religious person about the Mayans worshiping the sun, they will laugh and claim they were a primitive people who didn't understand the solar system. We know a sun-god doesn't exist, even though these people most likely had a long and detailed oral history of their gods work.

The modern day religious person will then say that worshiping their all knowing, all powerful, yet invisible god is perfectly reasonable as they have a long and detailed history book of their gods work.



These are the things that make me shake my head...the "My god is real...those others are fairy tales" way of thinking. It never occurs to the believers ( of any religion) that maybe everybody is right...and gods never have existed...because they are right, and the others are wrong.

[wick]

jay wrote Last I knew it was called the theory of evolution...not the fact of evolution.
There is a difference between "evolution" and "adaptation". Animals do "adapt" to thier surounding there is scientific evidence of this. But there is NO concrete evidence that evolution ever occured. (That is the transformation of one spiecies into another totally different spiecies over a long period of time).

Wick wrote jay your avatar is that of a polar bear an animal that has evolved and adapted in the way you have asked proof of. "(That is the transformation of one spiecies into another totally different spiecies over a long period of time)".

Evolve: To develop or achieve gradually: evolve a style of one's own.
To develop (a characteristic) by evolutionary processes.

Adapt: To make suitable to or fit for a specific use or situation.
To become adapted: a species that has adapted well to different
conditions, environment, etc...

jay why did you change you avatar?

[Backglass]

jay why did you change you avatar?

Because the Mets never evolve.

[Jesse, Bad Boy]

ok, let me try to address a few posts at once. Maybe I'm incorrect but I was under the impression that evolution is a very slow process in which a life form becomes a different life form. A bacteria changing but still being a bacteria is not evolution. If the bacteria (over time) became a fish, that would be evolution.

Same thing, only one is on a larger scale and the other a smaller scale (respectively, Macro and Micro evolution).

Speech is learned. If you have a non-speaking animal and none is around to teach it to speak, it will never speak. This is true for humans as well...If a baby was born and never exposed to human speech, it would never speak. So where did language come from? Once speech is in existence of course it "evolves" you already have the foundation of speech.

But a bunch of, lets say apes, will never develop the ability to speak on their own. Because speech is a LEARNED behavior.

You're being vague and purposely misleading here. Speech may be learned, but the capacity for communication is innate.

If you follow the Bible you cannot believe that God used evolution in the process of creation because it states that God created animals "each according to its kind" not one animal that became another. And man was created "from the dust of the Earth" not an ape.

If that were truly the case, why are we mostly water, and not mineral and rock?

[Stopper]

EVER CONSIDER ALIENSSSSSSS!!!!!

Good man! I often try to introduce aliens into the whole Is-God-Real-Isn't-He farrago, but no-one ever takes me seriously. But they sort-of probably exist! What's the Bible to say about THAT, then?

[Chad22342]

Thank you man. for once someone hears me out. hey we didnt just appear here out of nothing but i dont think there is a thing as powerful as God. maybe we were initially created by aliens who knows. in the beginning of star wars it says "A long time ago in a galaxy far far away" so hey why not

[Shaninon]

I will prove that evolution happens right now. My tallest great-grandparent was six feet tall. I am six foot three. My dad is six two. The growth hormone as generations go on is expressed more. That is a form of evolution. Why we adapt to get taller (which we most definitly do) I don't know, maybe so the bus can see us easier? I don't know, the point is that it happens.

This has probably got more to do with better diet, medical practices and a less strenuous environment (ie less manual labour) than evolution. If it was purely an evolutionary factor, we would see height levels increasing in people of all nations rather that it being restricted to "western" nations.

The second poster's opinion is in line with the current scientific explanation. The example you cited is more of a case of plasticity than evoultion. You can find an article on the subject here.

As to the question of evolution, if one of the OP's main points of contention is a lack of evidence of unique species evolving, there is a simple answer. Fairly recently, scientists have actually observed a species of salmon diverge into two distinct forms. Once again, an article explains the facts much better than I ever could, here.

I'm sorry to further bog down this already bloated thread, but I found the above papers interesting, and thought maybe some of you would, too.

[unriggable]

But if we are suddenly cut off from good food, my (nonexistent) children will probably still grow to be my height.

[AlgyTaylor]

Jay ... I respect your right to have an opinion. But you seem to take the bible as the literal truth with no errors. This is a really stupid position to take.

For example
2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."

2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death"
2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"

James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."

There are more ... many more.


My question to you now is this ... do you accept now that the Bible contains errors?

[neoni]

i also meant to ask earlier, jamie;
do you believe all species of animals lived within walking distance of noah, never mind that he could fit them and all the necessary food for six weeks on there?
how would animals such as the biblical behemoth fit into this? firstly, there's only meant to be one, and secondly it surely couldn't fit on a boat.
how would just one family control that many animals?
how do you explain things like the kangaroo? how did it get from the middle east to australia?

if you say that it didn't hold every species, as many christians do (never mind that it would be physically impossible as the measurements are given in the bible), rather that it had types how can you deny evolution? if there was enough space on a boat for every species of animal then, and there clearly is not now, where did the rest come from? bare in mind, with women as a distinct exception, god was meant to have completed creation in the first six days, so you can't say he made more after the flood.

[AAFitz]

I will prove that evolution happens right now. My tallest great-grandparent was six feet tall. I am six foot three. My dad is six two. The growth hormone as generations go on is expressed more. That is a form of evolution. Why we adapt to get taller (which we most definitly do) I don't know, maybe so the bus can see us easier? I don't know, the point is that it happens.

This has probably got more to do with better diet, medical practices and a less strenuous environment (ie less manual labour) than evolution. If it was purely an evolutionary factor, we would see height levels increasing in people of all nations rather that it being restricted to "western" nations.

The second poster's opinion is in line with the current scientific explanation. The example you cited is more of a case of plasticity than evoultion. You can find an article on the subject here.

As to the question of evolution, if one of the OP's main points of contention is a lack of evidence of unique species evolving, there is a simple answer. Fairly recently, scientists have actually observed a species of salmon diverge into two distinct forms. Once again, an article explains the facts much better than I ever could, here.

I'm sorry to further bog down this already bloated thread, but I found the above papers interesting, and thought maybe some of you would, too.

I believe a few years ago there was a chimp born that had one extra chromosome...it was far more human than most chimps, but still clearly less intelligent than a human...but its resemblence to a human was uncanny, and made many that saw it uncomfortable...it could be a glitch of course, but it could have been an example of an evolutionary process

what i find more funny about this whole evolution cant possibly exist and a God does...is the lack of faith in God that Jay must have that he feels he couldnt also create the world and an evolutionary process in order to do so

How can he be so closed minded to think that the only way a God could exist is that he had to make all species that ever lived all at once....instead of creating DNA and letting it take its course....Humans change species my altering the DNA in animals all the time...would it be so hard for his omnipotent God to create such a system...or is it too scary for him for both to happen....

Im not about to suggest God does or does not exist...thats up to every individual to decide for himself...but any God that could create the universe and life, could certainly create a system of evolution to do it...seems like it would be the easiest way actually...and any all powerful God would know the ultimate results of it, so the argument seems as silly as being afraid to acknowledge that the earth isnt the center of the universe....that adam and eve did not just spontaneously appear and start making mankind with by inbreeding...

Why wouldnt he just throw a cell out there and let it do all the work...its not like he couldnt change it if he wanted to, right?

Also...discounting the possibility that life can just happen is very close minded also...it represents a fear to confront ones beliefs and analyze the world from a rational point of view

I believe Jay that you are a coward...you are afraid to look at any facts that may shake your faith. You want to remain in the dark and hide behind your beliefs that you hold because you know there actually is the chance that you may be wrong....and if you are...everything you believe is wrong...so you have to hold on to these so tight that you cant even accept any ideas that may prove you wrong or offer another possibility

You only fear to question your God. It is not out of respect. If you had full respect for him you would trust that he would leave you evidence of his existence, that could never be disproved by science...you would trust that he made the world in a way so that he wanted you to investigate every detail of its creation, and unlock the secrets he programmed in. You fear that if DNA, the building code for all life on this planet, and possibly others is able to evolve and create new species, that this means your God doesnt exist.

Humans have only been studying DNA for a tiny amount of time, and understand quite a bit about it....i would think an all powerful God would know this was going to happen, and plan for it to happen... Also, if we in our mortal existence can discover such a process, it seems to me that an all powerful being could create it without any problem.

And dont forget...just like your speech that you seem to be implying just happened overnight because God one day implanted a language into our brains....the same people that told you about your God, told you about Santa, the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy....

Humans throughout history have come up with some pretty impressive stories...our sense of imagination is absolutely boundless...to discount the possibility that the bible is a work of fiction is just denial...Certainly you can choose to have faith in it, but to discount the possibility is just denial.

One last thing...a very large percentage of humans have been denied the education of your religion. One would think that a God of pure good would create a system that was far more equitable...it seems like an awful lot of souls are completely lost at birth through no fault of thier own...If someone is born in India, the chance of them learning Christianity is very slim...so really in your belief, he never had the chance that youve been given to know your God. Letting His people know he existed would hardly preclude free will. It would just give everyone the faith to make it easier to be the good people you would expect them to want to become. Now maybe it is the job of people like yourself to bring his word to the world and save as many souls as you can, but you really should try to do a better job of it. Your "I think God exists because the Bible says he does" argument is not going to be very effective in the world we live in. So you may have to pay a little more attention to science to make your mission successful.

[WL_southerner]

aliens umm you been reading a c clarks books, there all ways that possabily that might of happen to,if an aliens wanted to populate this planet but could't,because he may not be able to breath the air then he would pick on a close match and cross bred,ah maybe that what god is a alien, that might even explane the 3% of ufo's they keep coming back to check up on us
lol