Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[Phatscotty]

Blue, correction....a dispatcher told Zimmerman "We don't need you to do that, sir (follow him)" Zimmerman says "Ok"

I know some have stretched that into "The police specifically, adamantly, and forcefully told Zimmerman not to pursue him!" but those people just like to make things up so that their perceptions can continue to be their reality.

[Aradhus]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

[codeblue1018]

Blue, correction....a dispatcher told Zimmerman "We don't need you to do that, sir (follow him)" Zimmerman says "Ok"

I know some have stretched that into "The police specifically, adamantly, and forcefully told Zimmerman not to pursue him!" but those people just like to make things up so that their perceptions can continue to be their reality.

Indeed Scotty; my mistake.

[Night Strike]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

[Aradhus]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

wtf are you talking about? dead body, man with gun. If the dead body was white and the man with the gun was black, I'm sure the situation would be exactly the same. Still no charge, weighing up the evidence.

[Night Strike]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

wtf are you talking about? dead body, man with gun. If the dead body was white and the man with the gun was black, I'm sure the situation would be exactly the same. Still no charge, weighing up the evidence.

Hypotheticals don't matter in a case of life or death. What matters are facts. And thus far, the facts seem to be pointing to self-defense, which means the person cannot be charged for the death.

[Aradhus]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

wtf are you talking about? dead body, man with gun. If the dead body was white and the man with the gun was black, I'm sure the situation would be exactly the same. Still no charge, weighing up the evidence.

Hypotheticals don't matter in a case of life or death. What matters are facts. And thus far, the facts seem to be pointing to self-defense, which means the person cannot be charged for the death.

When the officers arrived on the scene they instantly deduced that it was self defense, cuz Zimmnerman said so. And the dead kid was black, so clearly enough evidence to not arrest the shooter.

[codeblue1018]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

wtf are you talking about? dead body, man with gun. If the dead body was white and the man with the gun was black, I'm sure the situation would be exactly the same. Still no charge, weighing up the evidence.

What kind of drugs are you on bro? Soo, a dead body + gun = murder? Obviously, that's not the case when the prosecutors office says "self defense". After that, its a done deal. All your ramblings are absurd; what is it that you think happened? Are you not reading the facts as they are? Do you not believe the physical evidence? Do you not believe the unbiased witnesses? Explain mate.

[Baron Von PWN]

Does florida have open carry? or concealed carry?

I ask because Zimmerman says he was concerned Martin would go for his gun. How doese Martin know he has a gun? did Zimmerman pull it on him? was it obviously visible?

If the gun was visible,Martin could have been pretty afraid for his life after being followed and then questioned by someone in an aggressive tone.

Anyone else notice that Zimmerman's story and Martin's girlfriend's story seem to contradict each other?

Zimmerman says Martin approached him and attacked, girlfriend says she heard the argument that led to the fight.

Maybe both belligerents thought they were fighting for their lives.

[Aradhus]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

wtf are you talking about? dead body, man with gun. If the dead body was white and the man with the gun was black, I'm sure the situation would be exactly the same. Still no charge, weighing up the evidence.

What kind of drugs are you on bro? Soo, a dead body + gun = murder? Obviously, that's not the case when the prosecutors office says "self defense". After that, its a done deal. All your ramblings are absurd; what is it that you think happened? Are you not reading the facts as they are? Do you not believe the physical evidence? Do you not believe the unbiased witnesses? Explain mate.

\uh, Zimmerman should've been took in for questioning. He admits to killing somebody but claims self defence. That warrants questioning at a police station.

[comic boy]

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

Code you are doing exactly what you accuse the other side of doing , cherry picking information as you see fit , how on earth can we accept Zimmermans uncoroberated statements as facts ?
Perhaps he is telling the unvarnished truth or perhaps he and his lawyer are putting the best spin on the story that they can think of , we dont know .

Not true Comic. I speak to the facts that are released from witnesses, statements and the like.

I look at it like this if I had no facts. First and foremost; the police get to the scene, they investigate; they bring Zimmerman in for questioning; no arrest was made. A police report was generated and forwarded to the prosecutors office depicting the facts of the case; the prosecutors office reviews the case and deems this self defense based on Zimmermans accounts, witness statements, evidence etc. Are we to believe that the police, Zimmermans account, the unbiased witnesses, the evidence, I.e Zimmerans injuries to his head, nose, grass stains on the back of his shirt that something malicious happened to Martin? I dont cherry pick Comic; I strictly make decisions based on facts and evidence; not the words that others think they know. Im not taking Zimmermans side; I'm simply looking at this from facts and not coming to a rushed decision because others think they know what happened. I do not agree with the way Zimmerman handled this incident but what he originally did by continuing to follow Martin wasn't against the law despite the fact that the police told him to stop following Martin. You are correct on one thing Comic; we will never know 100% as to what/how this all happened verbatim, however, I do believe in the American Judicial System to handles situations like this at top level. Racists such as Sharpton and Jackson surely help the judicial process run smoothly.

I think we can agree that the important thing is that we get to the truth , or as near as possible , that should now happen given the planned judicial enquiry. I agree with you that Sharpton and Jackson should now stfu , as should everybody else who is stirring the pot, we are more likely to find justice in a court of law than in the middle of a circus.

[Night Strike]

When the officers arrived on the scene they instantly deduced that it was self defense, cuz Zimmnerman said so. And the dead kid was black, so clearly enough evidence to not arrest the shooter.

So in your world, all the cops are racist too? Or just the ones that responded to this call?

[natty dread]

I still don't get why night strike & co. are so adamant that the shooter has to be innocent... Why are you so sure it was "self-defense"?

Is it just because the victim was a black kid in a rich neighbourhood, so he simply had to be "up to no good"?

[comic boy]

When the officers arrived on the scene they instantly deduced that it was self defense, cuz Zimmnerman said so. And the dead kid was black, so clearly enough evidence to not arrest the shooter.

So in your world, all the cops are racist too? Or just the ones that responded to this call?

The implication , as already mentioned in this thread , is that the Florida self defence law is too broad in its application , this restricts police options.

[codeblue1018]

So laughable at all the people speculating having not a clue on what the facts suggest. It's becoming more clear that the "victim", Martin may not be so innocent afterall. Shocking to say the least. One thing is for certain; the FACTS speak volumes.

Code you are doing exactly what you accuse the other side of doing , cherry picking information as you see fit , how on earth can we accept Zimmermans uncoroberated statements as facts ?
Perhaps he is telling the unvarnished truth or perhaps he and his lawyer are putting the best spin on the story that they can think of , we dont know .

Not true Comic. I speak to the facts that are released from witnesses, statements and the like.

I look at it like this if I had no facts. First and foremost; the police get to the scene, they investigate; they bring Zimmerman in for questioning; no arrest was made. A police report was generated and forwarded to the prosecutors office depicting the facts of the case; the prosecutors office reviews the case and deems this self defense based on Zimmermans accounts, witness statements, evidence etc. Are we to believe that the police, Zimmermans account, the unbiased witnesses, the evidence, I.e Zimmerans injuries to his head, nose, grass stains on the back of his shirt that something malicious happened to Martin? I dont cherry pick Comic; I strictly make decisions based on facts and evidence; not the words that others think they know. Im not taking Zimmermans side; I'm simply looking at this from facts and not coming to a rushed decision because others think they know what happened. I do not agree with the way Zimmerman handled this incident but what he originally did by continuing to follow Martin wasn't against the law despite the fact that the police told him to stop following Martin. You are correct on one thing Comic; we will never know 100% as to what/how this all happened verbatim, however, I do believe in the American Judicial System to handles situations like this at top level. Racists such as Sharpton and Jackson surely help the judicial process run smoothly.

I think we can agree that the important thing is that we get to the truth , or as near as possible , that should now happen given the planned judicial enquiry. I agree with you that Sharpton and Jackson should now stfu , as should everybody else who is stirring the pot, we are more likely to find justice in a court of law than in the middle of a circus.

Well said Comic and agreed

[codeblue1018]

Aradhus, where are you getting your bad information from? Lol. Zimmerman was indeed brought in for questioning and was later released. Do you think for one minute that If the police discovered anything to refute Zimmermans account that he wouldn't have been arrested? WTF!!! Do you actually believe that the police just took his word on the scene that it was self defense? It is now clear that you have no clue what you are talking about.

[patches70]

The non-Americans immediately dismiss any argument of self defense because Europeans don't look at self defense the same as we do in the US. It's pointless to even bother trying to explain.

No individual has the right to defend themselves, that's the job of the authorities don't ya know.

I suppose if any of them had someone break their nose and are slamming the back of their head into the ground then I suppose they'd just have to lay there and bleed until the coppers arrive.

And since the two individuals involved were both different shades of brown then it must be a racist hate crime that ended in murder. Any facts that are contrary to that line of thinking must be disregarded. All you silly skeptics of the media narrative and the irrational mobs in the streets screaming for blood better get to towing the line and gather up your pitchforks and torches. Or else! Stop wondering about it and file in with the group, no need for individual thought when there is a good mob to do the thinking for you.

[natty dread]

Haha, we do have right to self-defense, but there's such a thing as "excessive use of self-defense" in our legislation... meaning that just because someone attacks you it doesn't justify killing that person, unless there's no other alternative to save your own life.

I'm waiting to hear the convoluted explanations why Zimmerman's life was in such danger that he simply had to kill an unarmed kid to protect his own life...

[Aradhus]

Aradhus, where are you getting your bad information from? Lol. Zimmerman was indeed brought in for questioning and was later released. Do you think for one minute that If the police discovered anything to refute Zimmermans account that he wouldn't have been arrested? WTF!!! Do you actually believe that the police just took his word on the scene that it was self defense? It is now clear that you have no clue what you are talking about.

those were the initial reports from the local media. Apologies for not being a hipster like yourself and keeping up to date with all the relevant stories of ni.. black people being murdered in self defense.

[Aradhus]

The non-Americans immediately dismiss any argument of self defense because Europeans don't look at self defense the same as we do in the US. It's pointless to even bother trying to explain.

No individual has the right to defend themselves, that's the job of the authorities don't ya know.

I suppose if any of them had someone break their nose and are slamming the back of their head into the ground then I suppose they'd just have to lay there and bleed until the coppers arrive.

mod edit

[saxitoxin]

Much has been said about the racial issues surrounding the death of 17 year old Black victim Trayvon Martin, but little is being said concerning the race of the shooter, George Zimmerman, who is Hispanic. Before everyone rushes to judgment this part of the issue should be addressed.

What was Martin’s mind-set that caused him to run away and then physically engage with Zimmerman after being cornered? Why would Zimmerman shoot him? How could this horrible tragedy have happened?

As the facts that are known about this case are closely examined, glimpses of the thought processes of both Zimmerman and Martin begin to emerge.

First, let us try to see things from George Zimmerman’s view by looking at the transcript of his phone call to the police that night. . (Note: Portions of this transcript have been removed to highlight key issues.)

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy...This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something...

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black...Now he's just staring at me. Yeah, now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

The paranoia in Zimmerman is tangible. But the above bits of transcript are important because they let us know that Zimmerman got a very close look at Martin. Close enough to know that he had “button on his shirt” and that he was a teenager. Martin also got a very close look at Zimmerman. Zimmerman said: “He’s just staring at me” and “He’s checking me out.” As Zimmerman could see that Martin was Black, it is likely that Martin could see that Zimmerman was Hispanic.

Trayvon Martin had every right to be in the neighborhood. He was visiting his Father who is a resident of that gated community. As a guest, Trayvon should have been given full courtesy and protection from George Zimmerman and the Neighborhood Watch program. But the fact is that while he belonged there he was still a guest. He wasn’t from Sanford. He was from Miami.

Trayvon Martin lived in Miami-Dade County and attended Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School. (The High School he attended is by race 41% Hispanic, 29% White non-Hispanic, 28% Black, and 0.1% Asian.) A simple search of the internet will reveal the Latin Syndicate’s largest and most violent gang is in Miami-Dade County where Trayvon lived. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2vRotzto3o) He must have known or heard about the Hispanic gangs operating in his area. The majority of students in his High School were Hispanic. Perhaps some belong to these gangs.

Knowing this, we can imagine things through Trayvon Martin’s eyes as he looks back at the Hispanic man checking him out. While Zimmerman was describing Martin to the police, Trayvon would also have been assessing Zimmerman: How is he dressed? Does he have any visible tattoos? Why is this Hispanic guy staring at me? Is he a gang member? Am I on his “turf”?”

We know what Martin was wearing that night because Zimmerman described him to the police in his phone call, but what was Zimmerman wearing? This is important to know. We can see from the police photo that Zimmerman looks Hispanic and has an ear ring, but what else did he have on? Does he have tattoos? Could he fit the profile?

Zimmerman: Okay. These a**holes they always get away...S**t he's running.

Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok

(Section of transcript removed here where dispatcher gets Zimmerman’s name and location where he can meet with officers when they arrive.)

Martin begins to run and Zimmerman gives chase. When the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following Martin he says: “Yeah.” When told by the dispatcher that “we don’t need you to do that” Zimmerman says: “OK” and appears to comply. What happens next in the conversation is the dispatcher gets directions and Zimmerman’s contact information, but mixed into this are two very important bits of information offered by Zimmerman:

Zimmerman: He ran... I don't know where this kid is...

If Zimmerman did continue to chase Martin while giving the dispatcher the contact information and directions it is not clear, but we do know that for a time he lost sight of Martin and that he did not know where he went. While Zimmerman was giving the contact information to the dispatcher it is likely that he kept walking to a place where he thought Martin would be.

A sad fact here is that Zimmerman calls Martin “This kid”. This becomes important as we postulate on the events that soon take place when Zimmerman finds and confronts Martin.

Did Trayvon Martin think Zimmerman was a Latin gang member? Is this why he ran?
This would help explain the conversation Trayvon was having on his cell phone at that moment with a girlfriend back in Miami. The girl has been reported to say Martin told her that “someone was following him and that he was trying to get away.” It is obvious that Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. She advised him to run, which he then did. Not long after she overheard a confrontation something like this:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the same questions are repeated with the voices escalating:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the girl heard what sounded like a shove and the phone went dead or the earpiece was knocked out of Martin’s ear. Zimmerman told the police a fight began where he feared for his life. Zimmerman said he screamed for help but nobody came.

From what we know from the statements of Martin and Zimmerman, we can postulate on what they may have been thinking in the moments before the fight began.

When Martin asked: “Why are you following me?
Zimmerman would be thinking: “You’re just a kid who is up to no good… I am the authority figure here…I’m not answerable to you! … You need to answer to me!” So he did not identify himself as the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch.
Instead Zimmerman shot back: “What are you doing here?”
This is exactly how a gang member would challenge an outsider in his neighborhood. It implies “This is our turf…you don’t belong here…you may die for being here.”

The same questions are repeated with more anger and volume. This only reinforces the false perceptions. What happens next? Perhaps Trayvon learned it is best not to show fear in this situation. In Hispanic Miami-Dade County it can take Machismo and respect to survive. He can’t back down. On the other hand, perhaps he tried to run away again. Zimmerman may have then tried to hold him until the police arrived. Perhaps Zimmerman hit or pushed Martin first. We do not know how the fight started, but there is little doubt as to what happened next: Trayvon, in self defense and in fear of his life, put up a much more valiant fight than what Zimmerman ever would have expected.

Zimmerman told police while they fought he screamed for help and nobody came. A voice can be heard crying for help on the 911 calls. Scientific analysis should eventually prove if the voice is Zimmerman’s or Martin’s. However it would not be surprising if it turns out to be Zimmerman who was the one crying for help. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head. He would not have expected “this kid” to fight for his life when he confronted him. After all he was much bigger. This was just a kid he thought he could intimidate, but he soon found himself overpowered and getting the tar beat out of him. He pulls his gun and shoots Martin.

Zimmerman may be found innocent because of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” self-defense laws. This may be the legality, but morally it was wrong for Zimmerman not to explain that he was the Neighborhood Watch Captain when Martin asked why he was being followed. George Zimmerman was the adult and should be held accountable for his actions.

Like it or not, the unspoken “elephant in the room” is the fact that Zimmerman is Hispanic, and Trayvon Martin was growing up in an area of Latin gang activity. Zimmerman may have profiled Martin as a black kid “up to no good”. But Martin may have thought Zimmerman fit the profile of a gang member. This could have contributed to his final minutes being spent in fear and in a fight for his life.

It would seem cruel to the victim to think that racial stereotyping could also have influenced Trayvon’s actions that night, but if we are to ever fully understand this tragedy, this side must eventually be investigated, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

It seems that Martin may have been justified in attacking Zimmerman under the "Stand Your Ground" law. He was being chased without provocation by a much larger man, unknown to him, wearing no official identification. The law says:

"A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

Martin used force

the force was used against another person (Zimmerman)

Martin's attempt at retreating by foot had been foiled so force was his only recourse

if a woman found herself being suddenly chased by a large male unknown to her and wearing no uniform she would likely expect force would be "imminently" used against her (rape) -- if a high school student found himself being suddenly chased by a large male unknown to him through a crime-ridden neighborhood he might likewise expect force would "imminently" be used against him (beatdown)

That said, I empathize with the police and DA as it seems there's not enough evidence to convict anyone one way or the other. But, there's no way Zimmerman should be carrying a firearm is he is prone to start running after people on the basis of "gut feelings" rather than observed crimes. He's a hothead who is looking for the opportunity to be an action hero. It would be best if the DA could get him to cop a plea to assault or something so he had a felony record and they could prohibit him from carrying.

[Phatscotty]

Arad - There were over 11,000 gun-related homicides in the United States in 2009. How many of them made national news? How many of them did the president comment on?

Paranoid my ass...

Yeah? And your point is? Obama is in communication with the media and he told them to amp up this situation so he could step in like the benevolent hero he is! Give me a break. Some black kid gets shot and initial rumours(from local media) are that the police assigned to the case aren't investigating it properly. That the killer hasn't even been fucking charged. That's the sort of situation where a riot can break out.
I mean wtf is your point? Obama should never comment on any event ever, because his presence in that event is entirely self motivated?

He hasn't been charged because the investigation has thus far determined that he was acting in self-defense. You don't just go around charging people without actual evidence that a law was violated.

wtf are you talking about? dead body, man with gun. If the dead body was white and the man with the gun was black, I'm sure the situation would be exactly the same. Still no charge, weighing up the evidence.

LOL

[Phatscotty]

Much has been said about the racial issues surrounding the death of 17 year old Black victim Trayvon Martin, but little is being said concerning the race of the shooter, George Zimmerman, who is Hispanic. Before everyone rushes to judgment this part of the issue should be addressed.

What was Martin’s mind-set that caused him to run away and then physically engage with Zimmerman after being cornered? Why would Zimmerman shoot him? How could this horrible tragedy have happened?

As the facts that are known about this case are closely examined, glimpses of the thought processes of both Zimmerman and Martin begin to emerge.

First, let us try to see things from George Zimmerman’s view by looking at the transcript of his phone call to the police that night. . (Note: Portions of this transcript have been removed to highlight key issues.)

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...

Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy...This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something...

Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black...Now he's just staring at me. Yeah, now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Dispatcher: Late teens ok.

Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

The paranoia in Zimmerman is tangible. But the above bits of transcript are important because they let us know that Zimmerman got a very close look at Martin. Close enough to know that he had “button on his shirt” and that he was a teenager. Martin also got a very close look at Zimmerman. Zimmerman said: “He’s just staring at me” and “He’s checking me out.” As Zimmerman could see that Martin was Black, it is likely that Martin could see that Zimmerman was Hispanic.

Trayvon Martin had every right to be in the neighborhood. He was visiting his Father who is a resident of that gated community. As a guest, Trayvon should have been given full courtesy and protection from George Zimmerman and the Neighborhood Watch program. But the fact is that while he belonged there he was still a guest. He wasn’t from Sanford. He was from Miami.

Trayvon Martin lived in Miami-Dade County and attended Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School. (The High School he attended is by race 41% Hispanic, 29% White non-Hispanic, 28% Black, and 0.1% Asian.) A simple search of the internet will reveal the Latin Syndicate’s largest and most violent gang is in Miami-Dade County where Trayvon lived. (See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2vRotzto3o) He must have known or heard about the Hispanic gangs operating in his area. The majority of students in his High School were Hispanic. Perhaps some belong to these gangs.

Knowing this, we can imagine things through Trayvon Martin’s eyes as he looks back at the Hispanic man checking him out. While Zimmerman was describing Martin to the police, Trayvon would also have been assessing Zimmerman: How is he dressed? Does he have any visible tattoos? Why is this Hispanic guy staring at me? Is he a gang member? Am I on his “turf”?”

We know what Martin was wearing that night because Zimmerman described him to the police in his phone call, but what was Zimmerman wearing? This is important to know. We can see from the police photo that Zimmerman looks Hispanic and has an ear ring, but what else did he have on? Does he have tattoos? Could he fit the profile?

Zimmerman: Okay. These a**holes they always get away...S**t he's running.

Dispatcher: Are you following him? Zimmerman: Yeah

Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Zimmerman: Ok

(Section of transcript removed here where dispatcher gets Zimmerman’s name and location where he can meet with officers when they arrive.)

Martin begins to run and Zimmerman gives chase. When the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following Martin he says: “Yeah.” When told by the dispatcher that “we don’t need you to do that” Zimmerman says: “OK” and appears to comply. What happens next in the conversation is the dispatcher gets directions and Zimmerman’s contact information, but mixed into this are two very important bits of information offered by Zimmerman:

Zimmerman: He ran... I don't know where this kid is...

If Zimmerman did continue to chase Martin while giving the dispatcher the contact information and directions it is not clear, but we do know that for a time he lost sight of Martin and that he did not know where he went. While Zimmerman was giving the contact information to the dispatcher it is likely that he kept walking to a place where he thought Martin would be.

A sad fact here is that Zimmerman calls Martin “This kid”. This becomes important as we postulate on the events that soon take place when Zimmerman finds and confronts Martin.

Did Trayvon Martin think Zimmerman was a Latin gang member? Is this why he ran?
This would help explain the conversation Trayvon was having on his cell phone at that moment with a girlfriend back in Miami. The girl has been reported to say Martin told her that “someone was following him and that he was trying to get away.” It is obvious that Trayvon was afraid of Zimmerman. She advised him to run, which he then did. Not long after she overheard a confrontation something like this:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the same questions are repeated with the voices escalating:

Martin: Why are you following me?

Zimmerman: What are you doing here?

Then the girl heard what sounded like a shove and the phone went dead or the earpiece was knocked out of Martin’s ear. Zimmerman told the police a fight began where he feared for his life. Zimmerman said he screamed for help but nobody came.

From what we know from the statements of Martin and Zimmerman, we can postulate on what they may have been thinking in the moments before the fight began.

When Martin asked: “Why are you following me?
Zimmerman would be thinking: “You’re just a kid who is up to no good… I am the authority figure here…I’m not answerable to you! … You need to answer to me!” So he did not identify himself as the Captain of the Neighborhood Watch.
Instead Zimmerman shot back: “What are you doing here?”
This is exactly how a gang member would challenge an outsider in his neighborhood. It implies “This is our turf…you don’t belong here…you may die for being here.”

The same questions are repeated with more anger and volume. This only reinforces the false perceptions. What happens next? Perhaps Trayvon learned it is best not to show fear in this situation. In Hispanic Miami-Dade County it can take Machismo and respect to survive. He can’t back down. On the other hand, perhaps he tried to run away again. Zimmerman may have then tried to hold him until the police arrived. Perhaps Zimmerman hit or pushed Martin first. We do not know how the fight started, but there is little doubt as to what happened next: Trayvon, in self defense and in fear of his life, put up a much more valiant fight than what Zimmerman ever would have expected.

Zimmerman told police while they fought he screamed for help and nobody came. A voice can be heard crying for help on the 911 calls. Scientific analysis should eventually prove if the voice is Zimmerman’s or Martin’s. However it would not be surprising if it turns out to be Zimmerman who was the one crying for help. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head. He would not have expected “this kid” to fight for his life when he confronted him. After all he was much bigger. This was just a kid he thought he could intimidate, but he soon found himself overpowered and getting the tar beat out of him. He pulls his gun and shoots Martin.

Zimmerman may be found innocent because of Florida’s “Stand your Ground” self-defense laws. This may be the legality, but morally it was wrong for Zimmerman not to explain that he was the Neighborhood Watch Captain when Martin asked why he was being followed. George Zimmerman was the adult and should be held accountable for his actions.

Like it or not, the unspoken “elephant in the room” is the fact that Zimmerman is Hispanic, and Trayvon Martin was growing up in an area of Latin gang activity. Zimmerman may have profiled Martin as a black kid “up to no good”. But Martin may have thought Zimmerman fit the profile of a gang member. This could have contributed to his final minutes being spent in fear and in a fight for his life.

It would seem cruel to the victim to think that racial stereotyping could also have influenced Trayvon’s actions that night, but if we are to ever fully understand this tragedy, this side must eventually be investigated, no matter how uncomfortable it may be.

It seems that Martin may have been justified in attacking Zimmerman under the "Stand Your Ground" law. He was being chased without provocation by a much larger man, unknown to him, wearing no official identification. The law says:

"A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force."

Martin used force

the force was used against another person (Zimmerman)

Martin's attempt at retreating by foot had been foiled so force was his only recourse

if a woman found herself being suddenly chased by a large male unknown to her and wearing no uniform she would likely expect force would be "imminently" used against her (rape) -- if a high school student found himself being suddenly chased by a large male unknown to him through a crime-ridden neighborhood he might likewise expect force would "imminently" be used against him (beatdown)

That said, I empathize with the police and DA as it seems there's not enough evidence to convict anyone one way or the other. But, there's no way Zimmerman should be carrying a firearm is he is prone to start running after people on the basis of "gut feelings" rather than observed crimes. He's a hothead who is looking for the opportunity to be an action hero. It would be best if the DA could get him to cop a plea to assault or something so he had a felony record and they could prohibit him from carrying.

Yeah, it seems Zimmerman handled it wrong. He definitely should have told him that he was a Watchman and just trying to keep the neighborhood safe, and that he was questioning him because he didn't live there and there was a rash of crime recently. I am guessing that some words were exchanged when supposedly Trayvin first approached the car and had his hand in his waistline pretending to prepare to draw a gun. Probably why the line of questioning according the the girlfriend was off to a bad start.

I don't blame him I did that a few times in my younger years and it got me out of getting jumped everytime.

[BigBallinStalin]

I wonder why some people in this thread are so adamant that Zimmerman has to be innocent...

Now I don't want to point fingers or name names, and I don't want to accuse people of being racists... but, I can't help but wonder... where's this coming from? Is this really a cause worth fighting for? Is this really the person you want to defend - someone who shoots and kills a 17-year old unarmed kid?

There's no such thing as "self defense" against an unarmed person when you're the one who has a gun. There's no justification whatsoever for killing someone because you think he looks "suspicious".

"unarmed" != has no arms, thus incapable of inflicting serious injury or death

[HapSmo19]

Zimmerman shot back: “What are you doing here?”
This is exactly how a gang member would challenge an outsider in his neighborhood. It implies “This is our turf…you don’t belong here…you may die for being here.”

BS

Any self-respecting gang member would have followed up “What are you doing here?” with something like:

..., Perra?
..., Pendejo?
..., Maricón?
..., tu madre es gordo?
..., Cago en tu leche?
..., Cagaste y saltaste en la caca?

Suddenly, for CNN, it's ok to profile hispanics as gang members?