Who is the Best US President: Wilson, FDR or Obama?

[CreepersWiener]

Which of these distinguished presidents do you think deserves to be remembered as the best?

Show working.

A poll with only the worst presidents in our history as options?

Stop hitting yourself!

America's WORST President EVER!



Also, without "him", Americans would have never woke up and voted in THE BEST PRESIDENT IN HISTORY! OBAMA!

[Phatscotty]

Um, how can a president who's average unemployment was 5.4% (virtually full employment at 4%) be the worst in history?

[CreepersWiener]

Um, how can a president who's average unemployment was 5.4% (virtually full employment at 4%) be the worst in history?

Because he "f"ed it up...that's why.

[john9blue]

because everything is bush's fault

[GabonX]

Lt. Commander Ennes - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli reconnaissance pilots were heard telling their headquarters that we were an American ship."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/4a_ennes.ram

Lt. Commander Ennes - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli reconnaissance pilots circled the ship 13 times in the hours before the attack."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/5a_ennes.ram

Ensign Lucas - USS Liberty survivor
"The US flag flew throughout the attack except for a few seconds when it was shot down by the Israelis and immediately replaced."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/8a_lucas.ram

Ensign Lucas - USS Liberty survivor
"Israeli torpedo boats continued to fire from close range for another 40 minutes and fired mercilessly on liferafts in the water."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3f_ennes.ram

Captain Tully - USS Saratoga commander (near the USS Liberty when the Israelis launched Operation Shooting Gallery)
"I have never been told as to why my Strike Group, which was strong enough to drive-off all the Israeli forces attacking the USS Liberty, was recalled."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3c_tully.ram

Yeoman Hrankowski - USS Liberty survivor
"American sailors who were running, trying to deploy liferafts - put flares in the water - the Israelis were picking them off, one-by-one, with their machine guns."
http://www.ussliberty.org/g/hrank.gif

Secretary of State Rusk - Kennedy foreign minister
"The decision to attack a known American ship was made at a high level in the Israeli government."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/deanrusk.ram

Signalman Joe Meadors - USS Liberty survivor
"The helicopters that Israel claims were sent for "rescue," actually carried armed men in battle dress."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/3ameadrs.ram

Vice-Admiral Thomas Moorer - U.S. Chief of Naval Operations (ex-)
"The idea of an accident is too much to swallow. The ship was deliberately attacked."
http://www.ussliberty.org/audio/moorer.ram

Your source is not academic or credible. The first paragraph on the site establishes that the site has a conspiracy agenda. Ussliberty.org starts:

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.


The Attack

After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft overflights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft nine hours before the attack and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.

The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded. The ship, a $40-million dollar state-of-the-art signals intelligence platform, was later declared unsalvageable and sold for scrap.

The Cover Up
Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact...

This is far from a neutral inquiry.

Despite the fact that none of the sound files are working with me, for our purposes I'll assume they say what you say they do. This does nothing to remedy the fact that there is no counter testimony presented.

Visual contact

During the morning of the attack, early June 8, the ship was overflown by Israeli Air Force (IAF) aircraft including a Nord Noratlas "flying boxcar" and Mirage III jet fighters eight times.[20][16] At least some of those flybys were from a close range.[21] Many Liberty crewmen gave testimony that one of the aircraft flew so close to Liberty that its propellers rattled the deck plating of the ship, and the pilots waved to the crew of Liberty, and the crewmen waved back.[22] The aircraft were hunting for Egyptian submarines, which had been spotted near the coast.[23] At about 5:45 a.m. Sinai time (GMT +2), reports were first received at Israeli Central Coastal Command (CCC) about the Liberty, identified by pilots as a destroyer and the vessel was placed on the plot board using a red marker, indicating an unknown vessel.

At 6:03 a.m. that morning, the Nord identified the ship as a U.S. supply ship, though the marker was only changed from the red 'unknown ship' to a green 'neutral ship' at 9 a.m., when CCC was ordered to do so after naval command inquired as to the marker's status. Also around 9 a.m. an Israeli pilot reported that a ship north of Arish had fired at his jet after he tried to identify the vessel, and naval command dispatched two destroyers to investigate. These destroyers returned to previous positions at 9:40 a.m. after doubts emerged during debriefing over the pilot's allegations of receiving fire. When the Nord landed and its naval observer was debriefed, the ship was further identified as the USS Liberty based on its "GTR-5" markings.[24] The ship was removed from CCC's plot board at 11 am, due to its positional information being considered stale.[25]

At 11:24 a.m., IDF General Staff Headquarters received the first of several reports that Arish on the Sinai coast was being shelled from the sea. Israeli troops in the city had seen a massive explosion and noticed two unidentified ships offshore. Though the explosion was probably the result of a burning ammunition dump, the Israelis were unaware of the fact, and both Israeli and Egyptian sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. Investigative journalist James Bamford points out that Liberty had only four .50 caliber machine guns mounted on her decks and, thus, could not have shelled the coast.[26]

Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin was concerned that the supposed Egyptian shelling was the prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank Israeli forces. Rabin reiterated the standing order to sink any unidentified ships in the area, but advised caution, as Soviet vessels were reportedly operating nearby. No fighter jets were available, and the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. Naval headquarters did not react to the request in any way, and more than half an hour later, the General Staff issued a rebuke: "The coast is being shelled and you have done nothing". At 20:05 p.m., naval command dispatched three torpedo boats to find and destroy the enemy warship thought to be shelling Arish.[23] The torpedo boats were T-203, T-204 and T-206, and were from the 914th Squadron, codenamed "Pagoda".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Libert ... al_contact

The fact that the ship had Latin markings led Chief of Staff Rabin to fear that the ship was Soviet. Though Egyptian warships were known to disguise their identities with Western markings, they usually displayed Arabic letters and numbers only. Rabin ordered the torpedo boats to remain at a safe distance from the ship, and sent in two Hornet helicopters to search for survivors. These radio communications were recorded by Israel. The order also was recorded in the torpedo boat's log, although Commodore Oren alleged not to have received it. The order to cease fire was given at 2:20 p.m., 24 minutes before the torpedo boats arrived at the Liberty's position.[38]

During the interval, crewmen aboard the Liberty hoisted a large American flag to be clearly identified, but the flag was obscured by the smoke. The ship's request for assistance reached the Sixth Fleet at this time, and the aircraft carrier USS America dispatched eight aircraft. The carrier had been in the middle of strategic exercises, and the aircraft were still armed with nuclear bombs when they took off. Vice-Admiral William I. Martin recalled the aircraft minutes later. Martin feared that the Liberty's attackers were Soviet, and did not want to risk starting a nuclear war.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Libert ... ea_attacks


In short, believing that Egyptian naval forces were shelling the coast, the IDF confused this boat:




with this one:


(Images on the left of the two top rows and third image row are the Egyptian vessel)

The disgusting thing here is that your focus on the incident isn't out of remorse for the American lives lost. Quite the opposite you're highly critical of the American military, but you bring this up like propaganda as you see it as an opportunity to turn opinion against Israel by telling half truths and lying outright.

The USS Liberty incident was tragic, but there was no motive for Israel to have purposefully attacked an American vessel. Things sometimes happen in the fog of war which are unintended, and the United States itself is no stranger to this.If you weren't a self avowed Western hating socialist I'd say you should be ashamed of yourself for exploiting the deaths American servicemen to further your agenda, but considering what you are I'd say you're doing a half decent job of employing soviet era propaganda techniques.

It's actually kind of entertaining to watch and without a voice to combat it you might actually be able to sway some rather stupid people who are drawn in by your seeming authority. Presented with a rational counter argument however, aka reality, all of your false pretenses crumble.

[saxitoxin]

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

They sacrificed for your right to denounce them as liars.

If Mossad asked you to plant a suitcase nuke in the Rose Bowl on New Year's Day, would you ask why and then do it, or just do it? (I assume 'I wouldn't do it at all' isn't an option on the table.)

[GabonX]

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

They sacrificed for your right to denounce them as liars.

I'm not sure that what you posted is testimony of American veterans. Even if it is, it doesn't change the fact that the relevant side to consider is the Israeli's as it's their intent that's being considered.

[Metsfanmax]

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

Actually, the principal editor of this article seems to be user Kjhalliwell, who operates his own Google page on the USS Liberty:

https://sites.google.com/site/usslibertyinquiry/

[Phatscotty]

Perhaps tis best to leave the poll making to me.

You can't deny that the Zimmerman and the Obamacare polls are the most fair and honest of all time

[saxitoxin]

it doesn't change the fact that the relevant side to consider is the Israeli's as it's their intent that's being considered

LMAO - "Al Capone was a plumber because he said so; obviously he knows what profession he was doing better than anything else."

I'm sorry you don't consider first person testimony of wounded American veterans to be credible witnesses of the event that caused their injuries, but consider Wikipedia contributor HoneyTiger84 an academic and believable source.

Actually, the principal editor of this article seems to be user Kjhalliwell, who operates his own Google page on the USS Liberty:

https://sites.google.com/site/usslibertyinquiry/

That's a good find ... from looking at his Talk Page, it seems like he's a typical Hasbara Troll.

[GabonX]

Your conspiracy theory website's assertion that Israel purposefully attacked a US vessel, (we have to assume for shits and giggles because no explanation is offered), doesn't hold up when the preponderance of evidence to the contrary is considered. As tragic as what happened to them was, the testimony of US servicemen is not more credible than the people who admitted to, carried out, and apologized for the attacks.

Again, I find it particularly distasteful that you dwell on this not out of compassion for US troops, but rather because you're willing to exploit American deaths to encourage hatred of Israel.

[saxitoxin]

the testimony of US servicemen is not more credible than the people who admitted to, carried out, and apologized for the attacks

Like I said, they were machine-gunned in the water by laughing Israelis for your right to denounce them as liars, lunatics and malcontents.

[saxitoxin]

A Q&A on the episode in 1967 where IDF troops, giggling, butchered 34 American sailors as they begged for their lives:

http://www.councilforthenationalinteres ... ussliberty

The conspiracy theory website hosting the Q&A is the website of the Council for the National Interest whose Board of Directors is as follows:

- former Congressman Paul Findley (Republican - Illinois)
- former Congressman Col. Peter McCloskey (Republican - California); recipient of the Silver Star, Navy Cross & 2 Purple Hearts
- former Senator James Abourzek (Democrat - South Dakota)
- Dr. Edward Peck (former Deputy Director of Covert Intelligence Programs, U.S. State Department)
- Dr. Robert Keeley (former U.S. Ambassador to Greece)
- Dr. Phil Giraldi (former CIA Station Chief - Barcelona; national security correspondent for American Conservative Magazine)

I know it doesn't hold a candle to the somber, academic inquiry of HoneyTiger84, WikiMom2Boys and Freakzilla74 over at Wikipedia, but it's the best I could do.

[GabonX]

the testimony of US servicemen is not more credible than the people who admitted to, carried out, and apologized for the attacks

Like I said, they were machine-gunned in the water by laughing Israelis for your right to denounce them as liars and malcontents.

I don't think that they're liars. I think some of them may from PTSD but I don't think they're what you said. Your lack of acknowledgment that victims of a sustained military attack may have emotions which cloud their judgement is either an example of extreme stupidity or intellectual dishonesty.


Let me break this down for you guys just in case anyone doesn't follow...

Party A does something to Party B. Who is more qualified to explain why Party A did the thing, the people that did it or the people that it was done to? If the thing that was done hurt Party B, might this make them less rational in considering what happened?


As for whether this is an example of stupidity or dishonesty, I believe it's the latter. Riddle me this Saxi, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty on purpose why would they have admitted to doing it?

[saxitoxin]

Riddle me this Saxi, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty on purpose why would they have admitted to doing it?

Israel didn't admit to attacking the USS Liberty on purpose.

That was easy. Any more?

(I think you're probably better off just quoting Bible prophecy that ABC magic creature promised XYZ person a mystical destiny during an Ouija board game, like the rest of the pro-Israel crowd does. The 'hard facts' angle never really has worked too great for the Israeli chorus.)

[GabonX]

Riddle me this Saxi, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty on purpose why would they have admitted to doing it?

Israel didn't admit to attacking the USS Liberty on purpose.

That was easy. Any more?

If they attacked the USS Liberty knowing that it was an American ship why would they have admitted to attacking it?

What was their motive for the attack?

[saxitoxin]

Riddle me this Saxi, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty on purpose why would they have admitted to doing it?

Israel didn't admit to attacking the USS Liberty on purpose.

That was easy. Any more?

If they attacked the USS Liberty knowing that it was an American ship why would they have admitted to attacking it?

What was their motive for the attack?

Answers to your questions are all detailed at the link I posted above. There are no Bible verses or prophecy from Nostradamus there, however, so I'm not sure how credible you'll consider it.

[GabonX]

(I think you're probably better off just quoting Bible prophecy that ABC magic creature promised XYZ person a mystical destiny during an Ouija board game, like the rest of the pro-Israel crowd does. The 'hard facts' angle never really has worked too great for the Israeli chorus.)

Answers to your questions are all detailed at the link I posted above. There are no Bible verses or prophecy from Nostradamus there, however, so I'm not sure how credible you'll consider it.

There was no reference to bible verses or prophecy until you decided to make your antisemitism blatantly transparent.

Again, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty knowing it was a US ship, what was their motive, and why did they admit to carrying out the attack instead of blaming it on the Egyptian forces?

[saxitoxin]

Again, if Israel had attacked the USS Liberty knowing it was a US ship, what was their motive, and why did they admit to carrying out the attack instead of blaming it on the Egyptian forces?

Again - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=182445&start=30#p3985548.

[comic boy]

PhatTroll despises Obama , PhatTroll has a confirmed history of struggling to get even the day of the week correct , by default Obama must be a great president.

[Commander62890]

As per the OP: FDR for his leadership and major foreign policy decisions - even if his economic policies did exacerbate the depression (I'm on the fence about that).

Don't know too much about Eisenhower, but I agree Suez was a rare shining moment in US foreign policy.
Sure, it was a little hypocritical, considering the U.S.' imperialist policies elsewhere, but it's better than nothing.

One thing that peeves, me, though - Suez happened in 1956, and tends to overshadow a far greater injustice that occurred in the same year... the repression of the Hungarian Revolution. I'm guessing that doesn't get as much coverage b/c the Soviet bloc is gone, and I suppose there was little outrage at the time b/c the West had already decided to let the USSR do whatever it wanted within its own sphere. Regardless, there's no way I'm signing off on Khrushchev.

[Phatscotty]

Theodore and Woodrow by Judge Andrew P. Napolitano book trailer

"The 2 Presidents that destroyed Freedom"

[Iliad]

Phatscotty I'm going to have to ask you not to try and derail this thread. Also if you can't watch a video, digest its point and then rephrase it in your own words, then don't bother posting your youtube links.


This thread is a no-troll zone.

[puppydog85]

Phatscotty I'm going to have to ask you not to try and derail this thread. Also if you can't watch a video, digest its point and then rephrase it in your own words, then don't bother posting your youtube links.


This thread is a no-troll zone.

I find it mildly funny that you let a whole page of discussion about the Liberty incident go by without comment, but a video about us presidents is trolling?

[Dukasaur]

- former Congressman Paul Findley (Republican - Illinois)
- former Congressman Col. Peter McCloskey (Republican - California); recipient of the Silver Star, Navy Cross & 2 Purple Hearts
- former Senator James Abourzek (Democrat - South Dakota)
- Dr. Edward Peck (former Deputy Director of Covert Intelligence Programs, U.S. State Department)
- Dr. Robert Keeley (former U.S. Ambassador to Greece)
- Dr. Phil Giraldi (former CIA Station Chief - Barcelona; national security correspondent for American Conservative Magazine)

I know it doesn't hold a candle to the somber, academic inquiry of HoneyTiger84, WikiMom2Boys and Freakzilla74 over at Wikipedia, but it's the best I could do.

Yup....
Paul Findlay... noted commie-lover, best known for successfully urging Congress to renege on its guarantees to Nationalist China and endorse the Communist regime. Big surprise to find him in Nasser's corner, lol.
Pete McCloskey... Holocaust Denier. We find a Holocaust Denier questioning Israel's right to exist? OMG, RU Serious?!?! I can't believe it!
James Abourezk... Point man for the Arab lobby in Congress.... 'nuff said.
Edward Peck... Nixon sycophant elevated to the Foreign Service, presumably for his devotion to shining Nixon's shoes with tongue.
Robert Keeley... Gerald Ford shoeshiner, but better known for his tireless toadying to the Islamist lobby, and more recently self-publishing three books that no legitimate publisher would touch.

Fine bunch of objective, non-aligned neutral voices there! ROTFLMAO!

I'll take my chances with Mamabear824 or any other random sampling of normal people.