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Unions, Aren't They Great?

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What are you most thankful to unions for?

 
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Symmetry on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:03 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/should_lawyers_form_their_own_unions/

So the ABA is wondering what a lawyer's union would look like. Symm, maybe you can help them by sending them their mission statement.


Might be a little redundant, doncha think?

But anyway, it's a comment thread question, not an article with any kind of thought behind it, from one of the ABA Journal editors. It's almost a shame that she's not a lawyer.

But hey- I guess that's what you're down to now.


What they teach you in law school is that you use as many different arguments as you can to convince the other side. They do not teach you how to deal with people who don't admit when they are wrong, except that there is usually an impartial arbiter. We don't have that here, but I feel pretty good that no one thinks the ABA is a union. Including you. You're just pretending that you think it's a union so that you can get some sort of weird satisfaction from besting me. And that doesn't really make sense Symm... because if you know that your argument is bullshit, how do you take any joy in pretending to win this argument?


Hmm, I remain unconvinced. I'm remarkably unconvinced that law school never taught you how to deal with an adversary who won't admit that they're wrong. I would have thought that'd be kind of key to being a lawyer. But anyway, your odd BS aside, I've shown that the ABA fulfills all of the criteria you set out for constituting a union.

Even your modified criteria fit the ABA as a union. You're down to a blog post as your evidence, and a pitiful plea to some non-existent jury. You have swagger TGD, I'll give you that.


Unfortunately, you haven't shown that. Sorry little buddy.


I don't think you should go with that for your closing argument if you ever go to trial. It's only a small step above "nah-uh" as a statement of your position.

Perhaps consider joining the ABA, I hear they work to raise standards for their members, and the wider profession. Union membership has benefits that way.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:25 pm

You're a US citizen.
You are a member of a Union.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Phatscotty on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:24 pm

Check out this violent mob of union animal thugs destroy a Right to Work tent like a bunch of barbarians


note: the one sane person wearing the orange jacket. ONE sane person. He warns his fellow union thug buddies that tearing down the tent is exactly what their opposition wants, for them to be seen as violent thugs. The union members turned into violent thugs anyways.


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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:31 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
pimpdave wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
spurgistan wrote:The largest union for medical professionals

Stupid Obamacare, forcing doctors to defend their interests in 1847 (and who, incidentally, love Medicare).


I wonder why doctors love Medicare.

By the way pimpdave - I don't have any of those things. You know why? BECAUSE I'M NOT IN A UNION! Duh, duh, duhhhhhh



You have a living wage baby boy. Also, social security. And safety controls only matter to real men with real jobs. Not sissies sitting in offices.


Yeah, but did unions give me that living wage, social security, and safety controls? Nooooooo...


Yes.


Interesting. I have some follow-up questions requiring explanation:

(1) How did unions give me a living wage? Did they take... [deep breath]... attend all my classes from kindergarten through law school, take all my tests, take my SATs and LSATs, apply for my job, work at my firm for me for upwards of 12 hours a day?

(2) How did unions give me social security? Did they take my money and give it to the social security fund, which gives my money to people already on social security, ensuring that I will not get my money back? Money, incidentally, which I could have invested on my own.

(3) Let's take one safety control. Fire alarms. Did unions proceed with cases against companies that failed to install fire alarms? Did they hire their own attorneys for those cases? Did the unions lobby state and local government to ensure that fire alarms were installed in every building?

(4) Are you being cheeky?


(1) How did George Washington give you railways?
Even up to 1933 we had 2 million child laborers in this country. In 1835 we had, I believe, the largest child-labor strike in the county's history in Paterson, New Jersey, where kids went on strike for an 11 hour work day, for 6 days a week. That was an improvement for them. Unions busted up child labor practices in this country, and unions supported child education. In fact, don't most teachers belong to Unions? So Unions taught you how to read and write.
The AFL, in their first meeting, passed a resolution to ban children under 14 from being legally employed. That was in 1881. They lead the fight all the way until 1938, when they helped get the Fair Labor Standards Act passed.
As for working 12 hour days, that's irrelevant. But congratulations, for applying for a job?

But to answer your first question, everyone knows that Unions were the ones who pushed for minimum wage laws. Do I really need to recount to you about how everyone used to work 60 hour weeks with no overtime, no benefits, and for $1.30 a day? In fact, in some places, you had to pay for an application to work, or pay a reference company. Then, for no reason, you'd get fired after a month, so you'd have to pay for the reference or application all over again. It was common practice, and I could go on and on about all this crap.
This is all assuming that you weren't born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

2) Social Security has it's origin in Corporations of the late 1800s and early 1900s. They used pension and insurance plans to get the best workers to come to them. Later, Insurance Companies and Unions both hijacked the plans.
Insurance companies realized they could make more money on things like life insurance if they could get a corporation to sign all of their employees up for it, and have them all pay in.
And Unions saw retirement packages and worker's comp to be desirable for reasons that are self-evident.

But by the late 20s most of these plans had failed with the advent of the Great Depression. The ones that didn't fail were government pension plans, and that's how we got on the road to Social Security. Most of the plans that existed before the Depression favored the Corporations that offered them anyway. The Corporations weren't obligated to honor them, and they could stop paying anytime they wanted. Because of this, the pension plans sometimes had the opposite effect that the companies desired, that is, they weren't able to control their own worker's who knew the benefit's may not be honored.
Then along comes Rockefeller in the 20s who sees pensions, social insurance, ect, as his best chance to keep unions out of his businesses. His plans are successful, and businesses and Unions both learn a thing or two from him, but the Depression still wipes out most Corporate-controlled pension plans. Then some Railroad company takes away it's worker's pensions, or a portion of it (I can't remember which) and the railway workers took direct action to get them back. At that time, the AFL opposed a federal pension plan, because they were trying to work with their Corporations to keep their private pensions funded. But seeing the success of the railroad workers, they stopped blocking attempts by members to nationalize a pension plan for everyone.
Finally, the businesses that had been offering private pensions saw that it would be smart to support the National Pension Movement, because it would save them money and make the pensions more reliable for their workers, thus, win-win.
In the end Social Security had a huge "advisory panel" made up of corporation's lobbyists, labor leaders, and others. Social Security was something everyone worked for, and generally speaking, everyone supported.

3) Asch Building, at 23-29 Washington Place, now known as the Brown Building

Worker's died in factory fires because it was common practice to lock them in until they made enough sh*t for their masters. And to "keep them from stealing." This lead to fire exits and fire alarms, which Unions did fight for. It's almost offensive to me that people don't know about this... like not knowing what the Revolutionary War was about. This fire was one of the opening shots of the Labor Movement, even though it happened as late as 1911.
The one stairway between the floors filled with fire, and the women who worked at the factory tried to seek protection on the fire escape, but it was poorly built and probably broken before the fire, and at least 20 women fell 100ft to concrete when it collapsed on them.
The company responsible paid something like $20 per death, because the women were mostly immigrants and that must have meant that their lives were worth nothing.


http://todayinlaborhistory.tumblr.com/
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:50 pm

Steel Worker's pay in Andrew Carnagie's Steel Mill:

1890
84hrs a week, for less than $10

Dr. W. David Lewis
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:18 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Awesome post


Funny you should mention George Washington. Based on your logic, George Washington also greatly contributed to my living wage, safety, and other benefits.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Juan_Bottom on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:22 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Awesome post


Funny you should mention George Washington. Based on your logic, George Washington also greatly contributed to my living wage, safety, and other benefits.

Why not? History is like the Earth, constantly adding new layers built on the old ones. Without Washington America may have never come to being.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:28 pm

This is amazing. I've never seen so many Americans against the freedom of choice.

... unless of course they wanna' slaughter unborn children, then it's all about choice, eh?

Parasites.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:31 am

Being a jerk, I feel somewhat obligated to post in this thread.
My only gripe about unions is how crusty they have become and as a result, less efficient.
Btw, I voted for safety controls because I know firsthand that company owners could give a shit about their employees' safety beyond their ability to maximize profits.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby pimpdave on Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:20 am

I'm in a union. How dare you attack me!
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby warmonger1981 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:32 am

I like unions because they beat up people who disagree with them unlike the tea party. They are just racist from what I hear.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby HapSmo19 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:16 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Steel Worker's pay in Andrew Carnagie's Steel Mill:

1890
84hrs a week, for less than $10

Dr. W. David Lewis


Cost of a blowjob:

300 B.C.
About 2 Shekels

Fact
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:22 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:Steel Worker's pay in Andrew Carnagie's Steel Mill:

1890
84hrs a week, for less than $10

Dr. W. David Lewis


Steel workers pay and wealth created before Andrew Carnegie's steel mill = 0$
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby HapSmo19 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:35 pm

1 lb. of bacon:

1890
.12 cents
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:37 pm

1 horse in 1890 = 5$
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby HapSmo19 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:10 pm

Steak & potatoes dinner(@ home) for 4(with bread, butter and milk):

1890
.42 cents
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby john9blue on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:10 pm

being able to exploit your workers without fear of pesky governmental regulation:

priceless.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Neoteny on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:11 pm

Ok, you guys, that made me chuckle.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:17 pm

Thank God unions finally came around, and conditions started to improve in the early 20th century, and to their credit helped build the largest most prosperous middle class the world has ever known
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby DoomYoshi on Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:15 pm

Neoteny wrote:Ok, you guys, that made me chuckle.


Yea.
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Re: Unions, Aren't They Great?

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:34 am

Pro-Union Activist Threatens the Michigan Governor: 'We'll Be at Your Daughter's Soccer Game'



Now, open your eyes, and imagine someone in the Tea Party made a similar threat...
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