Chinese Knife Rampage

[macbone]

Scotty and I were just talking about this horrifying trend of people going into kindergartens and primary schools in China and slashing multiple people. Usually, several kids are killed. These reports are actually not reported in Hong Kong, at least the English sources I read, and my HK wife was unaware of them, but I remember hearing news reports on BBC's The World.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... tacks.html

There appear to be a couple of commonalities in these attacks (and probably more) and the ones in the US and Finland. In most of these stories, young people and children are targeted. Usually the person who kills or attacks feels that their lives are worthless, and the murders and assaults are a kind of protest.

[Symmetry]

Where did you get the idea that I haven't heard of knife attacks outside of China?

Why don't we see these kinds of attacks in other countries where knives are legal?

I think it's from you.

[_sabotage_]

Perhaps you would like to try to kick my ass in Muay Thai?

No, knives should not be banned in China. Chopsticks and razors should not be banned in China. Guns should most definitely be banned and China and have been.

I have no idea why you haven't heard of knife attacks outside of China. Perhaps you limit your reading, perhaps you have picked China out as a target.

[GabonX]

US lunatic attacks school with guns: 20+ dead.
Chinese lunatic attacks school with knives: 20+ injuries, no deaths.


Hmmm.

Again, the recent US shooting has no bearing on this. Are you suggesting that people can't kill with knives?

Also, please answer the questions in the OP if you want to participate.

It has a lot of bearing on it. Exact same kind of crime, bizarrely so. People can kill with knives, but it's clearly a lot harder.

The gun attack was incredibly more lethal, and easier to carry out by the perpetrator.

I wasn't ready to draw the discussion towards the recent US school shooting yet as I was hoping we could discuss the Chinese issue objectively first. The number of dead in these particular instances are irrelevant as their have been knife killing sprees where more have died and shooting sprees with less casualties. Are you trying to argue that knives are less dangerous than guns?

And again, please answer the questions in the OP if you want to participate.

[GabonX]

Where did you get the idea that I haven't heard of knife attacks outside of China?

Why don't we see these kinds of attacks in other countries where knives are legal?

I think it's from you.

Thank's Symmetry, I really do believe the writer is incapable of answering for himself in this instance.

My statement was not meant to imply that knife attacks don't occur in other countries. Rather I was asking why we don't see people going on the same kind of knife wielding rampage in countries like the US and Britain that have been happening in China...

[chang50]

I was responding to a comment by Sabotage.There is more than a touch of irony in being schooled in the correct use of my mother tongue by a North American,lol.

There's also irony in the fact that I could kick your ass in your own national sport, Muay Thai, but I digress...


Not so ironic when you consider not many retired people engage in martial sports,and Thailand is my adopted country,I will always remain British.How's your cricket?
And yes knives are obviously less dangerous than guns.

[_sabotage_]

Scotty and I were just talking about this horrifying trend of people going into kindergartens and primary schools in China and slashing multiple people. Usually, several kids are killed. These reports are actually not reported in Hong Kong, at least the English sources I read, and my HK wife was unaware of them, but I remember hearing news reports on BBC's The World.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... tacks.html

There appear to be a couple of commonalities in these attacks (and probably more) and the ones in the US and Finland. In most of these stories, young people and children are targeted. Usually the person who kills or attacks feels that their lives are worthless, and the murders and assaults are a kind of protest.

I have heard of a few reports of attacks in kindergartens in the mainland. A prominent one a few years ago was committed by an African teacher in a Kindergarten outside of Guangzhou. I have also heard of the strikes and severe retaliations in Foshan. I was there at the time and didn't watch it all, but didn't see or hear of any severe retaliation apart from in international articles.

I would also suggest as someone who attended SIS and has many friends in HK, that HK is not really a good source for information on the mainland, considering that most HKers don't actual visit the mainland and seem to consider that HK is not really part of China.

[GabonX]

I was responding to a comment by Sabotage.There is more than a touch of irony in being schooled in the correct use of my mother tongue by a North American,lol.

Not so ironic when you consider not many retired people engage in martial sports,and Thailand is my adopted country,I will always remain British.How's your cricket?

Then I agree, that is somewhat ironic. It's also ironic that there are more English speakers in America than England, and that more people around the world speak English because of American influence than British influence. Considering these points it may be more fitting to call the language "American" at this point, but again I digress...

And yes knives are obviously less dangerous than guns.

Statistics show that you are significantly more likely to survive being attacked or shot with a gun than attacked with a knife.

[Symmetry]

I was responding to a comment by Sabotage.There is more than a touch of irony in being schooled in the correct use of my mother tongue by a North American,lol.

Not so ironic when you consider not many retired people engage in martial sports,and Thailand is my adopted country,I will always remain British.How's your cricket?

Then I agree, that is somewhat ironic. It's also ironic that there are more English speakers in America and England, and that more people around the world speak English because of American influence than English influence. Considering these points it may be more fitting to call the language "American" at this point, but again I digress...

And yes knives are obviously less dangerous than guns.

Statistics show that you are significantly more likely to survive being attacked or shot with a gun than attacked with a knife.

Interesting- but I think you may have missed out your link. I trust you realise that just saying "statistics show" at the start of a sentence is a recipe for BS.

[GabonX]

I was responding to a comment by Sabotage.There is more than a touch of irony in being schooled in the correct use of my mother tongue by a North American,lol.

Not so ironic when you consider not many retired people engage in martial sports,and Thailand is my adopted country,I will always remain British.How's your cricket?

Then I agree, that is somewhat ironic. It's also ironic that there are more English speakers in America and England, and that more people around the world speak English because of American influence than English influence. Considering these points it may be more fitting to call the language "American" at this point, but again I digress...

And yes knives are obviously less dangerous than guns.

Statistics show that you are significantly more likely to survive being attacked or shot with a gun than attacked with a knife.

Interesting- but I think you may have missed out your link. I trust you realise that just saying "statistics show" at the start of a sentence is a recipe for BS.

It's common knowledge for people that actually follow this stuff. I remember being surprised when I first viewed the FBI statistics that showed this, but anyone in law enforcement or tactical self defense will verify that knife lethality is significantly higher than gun lethality.

Do you really want to argue this point? You are wrong.

[Symmetry]

I was responding to a comment by Sabotage.There is more than a touch of irony in being schooled in the correct use of my mother tongue by a North American,lol.

Not so ironic when you consider not many retired people engage in martial sports,and Thailand is my adopted country,I will always remain British.How's your cricket?

Then I agree, that is somewhat ironic. It's also ironic that there are more English speakers in America and England, and that more people around the world speak English because of American influence than English influence. Considering these points it may be more fitting to call the language "American" at this point, but again I digress...

And yes knives are obviously less dangerous than guns.

Statistics show that you are significantly more likely to survive being attacked or shot with a gun than attacked with a knife.

Interesting- but I think you may have missed out your link. I trust you realise that just saying "statistics show" at the start of a sentence is a recipe for BS.

It's common knowledge for people that actually follow this stuff. I remember being surprised when I first viewed the FBI statistics that showed this, but anyone in law enforcement or tactical self defense will verify that knife lethality is significantly higher than gun lethality.

Do you really want to argue this point? You are wrong.

I'm just interested in your stats. It seems like you're avoiding posting them. Given that this thread is about a horrific knife attack in which fortunately nobody died, and comparisons have been obviously drawn to the fatal shootings in the US, I think you should cut the BS and show what you're trying to say, rather than trolling.

[Falkomagno]

Are you trying to argue that knives are less dangerous than guns?

What the hell? Of course knives are less dangerous than guns.

What do you think is more dangerous, a rifle or an automatic gun?

[Falkomagno]

I think your original intention is first, to prove that in countries like China, were there is considerately harder to get automatic guns, it still can happens kill rampage where a nutjob kills (or try to kill) children out of the blue. And second, that a knife rampage is more dangerous than an automatic gun rampage. That's a huge mistake, and is blind to reality.

Even if is true that restricting the availability of guns is not absolute solution to those misarable and demential attacks (that at certain extend are becoming a worrying "trend" in the states) is undoubtely a right action aimed to decreases the lethality in such attacks. Your own example provides comparison between an attack with knife, compared with this recent and sad in CT.

[macbone]

Scotty and I were just talking about this horrifying trend of people going into kindergartens and primary schools in China and slashing multiple people. Usually, several kids are killed. These reports are actually not reported in Hong Kong, at least the English sources I read, and my HK wife was unaware of them, but I remember hearing news reports on BBC's The World.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... tacks.html

There appear to be a couple of commonalities in these attacks (and probably more) and the ones in the US and Finland. In most of these stories, young people and children are targeted. Usually the person who kills or attacks feels that their lives are worthless, and the murders and assaults are a kind of protest.

I have heard of a few reports of attacks in kindergartens in the mainland. A prominent one a few years ago was committed by an African teacher in a Kindergarten outside of Guangzhou. I have also heard of the strikes and severe retaliations in Foshan. I was there at the time and didn't watch it all, but didn't see or hear of any severe retaliation apart from in international articles.

I would also suggest as someone who attended SIS and has many friends in HK, that HK is not really a good source for information on the mainland, considering that most HKers don't actual visit the mainland and seem to consider that HK is not really part of China.

Most HKers actually do visit the mainland. It used to be a very popular destination for holidays, and my family still regularly visits. What usually gets reported in HK are the shocking stories like the little girl who was hit once by a car, and then the driver tried to hit her again, because the fines for killing someone in China are less than sending someone to the hospital.

But you're right - a lot of HKers view mainlanders as somehow being from a different country/culture and consider them locusts who are preying on HK, but more and more young people in HK are embracing their Chinese identity.

Integration with the mainland is an inevitability at this point. It's just a question of the speed of the transformation.

But to get back to the topic at hand, I think we see in both countries a feeling of despair, of worthlessness. I hadn't read about the African teacher, but the majority of the slashing cases in China in the past two years have been Chinese men.

[GabonX]

I was responding to a comment by Sabotage.There is more than a touch of irony in being schooled in the correct use of my mother tongue by a North American,lol.

Not so ironic when you consider not many retired people engage in martial sports,and Thailand is my adopted country,I will always remain British.How's your cricket?

Then I agree, that is somewhat ironic. It's also ironic that there are more English speakers in America and England, and that more people around the world speak English because of American influence than English influence. Considering these points it may be more fitting to call the language "American" at this point, but again I digress...

And yes knives are obviously less dangerous than guns.

Statistics show that you are significantly more likely to survive being attacked or shot with a gun than attacked with a knife.

Interesting- but I think you may have missed out your link. I trust you realise that just saying "statistics show" at the start of a sentence is a recipe for BS.

It's common knowledge for people that actually follow this stuff. I remember being surprised when I first viewed the FBI statistics that showed this, but anyone in law enforcement or tactical self defense will verify that knife lethality is significantly higher than gun lethality.

Do you really want to argue this point? You are wrong.

I'm just interested in your stats. It seems like you're avoiding posting them. Given that this thread is about a horrific knife attack in which fortunately nobody died, and comparisons have been obviously drawn to the fatal shootings in the US, I think you should cut the BS and show what you're trying to say, rather than trolling.

FBI Statistics: Edged weapon attackers are responsible for 3% of all armed attacks of police Firearm attacks account for 4% Both of the above stats represent fatalities Subject shot, 10% die from their wounds Subjects stabbed, 30% die from their wounds
http://www.fraternalorderoflawenforceme ... cation.pdf

Are you trying to argue that knives are less dangerous than guns?

What the hell? Of course knives are less dangerous than guns.

It really depends. Knives are significantly more lethal when used, and this really is basic knowledge to people in the fields of law enforcement/tactical defense/martial arts.

What do you think is more dangerous, a rifle or an automatic gun?

I'm going to ignore that that you don't seem to understand that most automatics are rifles and that one status does nor preclude or exclude the other, and just tell you that it's a matter of range just as whether a gun or knife is more dangerous is a matter of range.

[Symmetry]

So essentially you don't really have the stats to back up your claim.

[GabonX]

So essentially you don't really have the stats to back up your claim.

Did you miss the part where I posted them?

[Symmetry]

So essentially you don't really have the stats to back up your claim.

Did you miss the part where I posted them?

Not at all- I read the newsletter from the fraternity, and it didn't provide the stats that I asked for. It seemed to be only dealing with attacks on police.

So anyway, can you back up your claim?

[_sabotage_]

Macbone,

I have paid for my mother-in-laws operation and week long stay at the hospital, my child's birth and his two week stay in ICU among other things. My mother-in-laws operation, stay, etc. cost roughly 30,000RMB and my son's birth/ICU plus our VIP room at the hospital for the duration cost about 20,000RMB. Killing someone with a vehicle costs more than 300,000 and a 8 year prison sentence (it's on the driving test, which is why I know it and the driver should have).

They are locusts preying on HK? Yes, maybe that is the view, but not one that the Fong brother's shared with me when we met. They are among the richest families in HK for the reference of others and a large part of their business is manufacturing provided by Chinese labour. If we go further back in HKs successful history, the idea of locusts and preying might be viewed from an altogether different direction. HK which cannot even support itself and yet is one of the richest ports in the world at the base of the country who decreed they needed nothing from the West.

From my travels through the countryside into the poor farmer's areas and so forth, I think that there is a certain despair, but not really of the same sort as seen in America. China has a strong sense of family, whereas the US is much more of each man for himself. I think the greatest obstacle China faces is maintaining a strong sense of family as the cultural generation gap widens between the young and the old, and the idea of individual wealth rather than family wealth comes crashing in.

As for not hearing of the African teacher, that was partly my point. This thread is biased, as is much media coverage of China. My wife is Chinese and son half-Chinese.

The author asks why he hasn't heard of such attacks elsewhere and asks whether knives should be banned. Had he made this a counter piece by simply asking the second question, or made it a media biased piece by simply asking the first, then the piece could have a sense of direction. As is, the direction seems to be that China is equally violent and no other place is.

Living in HK is to be away from the violence that is heard of in other places. But if I were to mention the acid attacks and why I have heard of them nowhere else? This would be an attempt to point a rather grim view of HK. Firstly, I have heard of acid attacks in other places, mainly Asia, but also in Italy. Had the author attempted to point out that most kindergartens, even the more expensive ones in China, have 60 students in each class and have such unfortunate punishments as making the children hold chairs above their heads for an hour, I would have considered this a real OP, but would have been forced to point out that my US cousin works in a kindergarten and is often the person who suggests these punishments.

But like I said, this thread is just utter nonsense. I ran my own business in China. One of the hardest things to do is find laborers as there is so much competition for them and raising and reraising salaries to attract people still wasn't enough. In the end, my reputation as a fair and reasonable employer enabled me to retain some and attract others.

China is producing and selling goods. The US is producing and selling debt.

Bad things happen everywhere, unfortunately. It's sad that we have grown familiar with not looking how bad our situation is but comparing it to those around us to make it seem not as bad. At the end of the day, we all need to produce and give others opportunity to produce or society will drain away leaving a few to be viewed well off in comparison to others.

Keep the piece flowing. Keep more like it coming. At least you are producing something Gabonx.

[GabonX]

So essentially you don't really have the stats to back up your claim.

Did you miss the part where I posted them?

Not at all- I read the newsletter from the fraternity, and it didn't provide the stats that I asked for. It seemed to be only dealing with attacks on police.

So anyway, can you back up your claim?

Unless you can explain why schoolchildren are better equipped to survive attacks with knives than police officers, this has already been settled.

If you want to nitpick then here, knock yourself out:
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats


This really is common knowledge. Any professional will verify that in a tactical situation a knife is more dangerous than a gun within range.

[_sabotage_]

Symmetry, please don't insist. I hope if I ever find myself at war with Gabonx, he will think he should bring a knife to it.

[Symmetry]

Symmetry, please don't insist. I hope if I ever find myself at war with Gabonx, he will think he should bring a knife to it.

[crispybits]

Considering that knife attacks on crowds of people are an established problem in China, should the Chinese government consider banning knives?

Also,

Why don't we see these kinds of attacks in other countries where knives are legal?

No they shouldn't ban knives. Not all of them anyway.

A knife is a tool. It has other uses than causing direct harm to people and animals. A kitchen knife can be used to cut food. A builder's knife can be used for various home improvement style tasks. Both could be used to injure or kill someone, but it's not the design of the device. Weaponised knives, those which are designed to kill or injure people or animals, should be banned (and maybe already are, I don't know Chinese law).

If you go down the route of banning anything dangerous, then it's a ridiculous conclusion. If you go down the route of banning anything that is weaponised by design, then it's not so much.

As for the second question, as others have said maybe you don't read every bit of international news? Maybe there are also cultural problems within China which means a knife is a nutter's weapon of choice. Take the knives away and they might just start picking up sharp rocks and beating people over the head with them. Take the knives away and give them guns instead and their capacity for lethality goes through the roof.

If you want to nitpick then here, knock yourself out:
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats

This really is common knowledge. Any professional will verify that in a tactical situation a knife is more dangerous than a gun within range.

That's the key part of those stats. 10% casualties when atacked with a gun where the attackers starts within 20 feet of the victim. 30% casualties when attacked with a knife where the attacker starts within 20 feet of the victim.

And that's in large part down to the culture that says "my gun will defend me". If your attacker starts within 20 feet then your best defence is whatever is already in your hands, and if you don't already have something in your hands then your best defence is your hands themselves. Drawing your concentration away from your attacker to go into some prescribed action of trying to draw a weapon, aim and fire gives an attacker who starts from within 20 feet and is already armed a chance to get within range and use their weapon before you can use yours.

But start the attacker more than 25 feet away from the victim and what are the casualty rates gun vs knife? I would find it hard to imagine that there is more than 1 case every several decades where a knife is thrown from beyond that range and causes lethal injury (I don't have stats, I just have knowledge of the difficulty of throwing a knife accurately and with force from messing around with them on camping trips when I was younger trying to get the knife to embed itself in a tree). The gun fatality rate, I don't know if that would go up or down overall because if you include longer ranged killings then you get the nutjobs who find a high vantage point and start sniping with very deliberately aimed shots through high powered scopes and with very accurate rifles. You also get people taking shots with handguns from further away which requires greater technique and accuracy to hit the target.

[macbone]

Here's the story on the toddler who was run over twice by the same guy in China: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... treet.html

The man was afraid he'd be in trouble if he stopped, so he ran over the girl onne more. More than 15 people walked by and did nothing while the little girl lay bleeding in the street. She later died in the hospital. He was far less concerned with killing her than he was with being caught and having to pay for hospital bills. Your description of 30,000 RMB for an operation is a princely sum in China. A college professor earns about 4,000 RMB per month, 5k for a master's, 6k with a PhD. I talked to a girl a couple of weeks ago who said she wanted to do some teaching in a western province when she finished her second PhD. The pay? 400 RMB a month. Some people in China are very, very rich, but most still live in poverty.

I'm not quite sure where you're going with the "acid attacks." HK is an incredibly safe place to live, as long as parents keep their kids from wandering out in front of buses or falling out of windows.

I've been to the countryside in China, too. The people I've met have impressed me as being warm, kind-hearted, welcoming to foreigners, and eager to show westerners that China welcomes us. I'd even go so far as to say that the people I've met in the mainland are kinder than HKers, who seem more self-focused and materialistic, but China is changing, too, in their pursuit of wealth.

The history of HK is complex, but it obviously owes its wealth and success to its former status as the entry point to China and the great stream of goods and money that have gone through its port. Now, with China opening up and cities like Shanghai reclaiming their former importance in world trade, HK is changing, and many are unhappy about it.

But China is a wild place still. Try crossing a street in Hubei province. You basically take your life into your own hands dodging the trucks, motorcycles, and scooters. It's amazing what is occurring in China, but many of the rural areas haven't seen much of the new prosperity yet. Traffic lights are strung across the intersections, but in the smaller towns they're not on. Street lights are turned off at night to conserve electricity. In the smaller places I've been, the feel is very much like the Wild West, with everything legal until it's not.

The OP is drawing a comparison to China's epidemic of mass knife attacks with the US's epidemic of mass shootings. I think the comparison is interesting, and I wonder what other patterns exist in other countries. With the US, we have a waning power, with China, a rising one, but apparently both societies are afflicted with individual cases of soul-crushing despair coupled with a view that human lives are not something precious that should be protected.

One last point - my Chinese mother-in-law had never heard of any of these knife attacks in China, not the one a few days ago, and not the ones in 2010. The toddler's death was well-documented - it was all anyone could talk about for weeks. But this knife attack wasn't even reported.

[CreepersWiener]

Considering that knife attacks on crowds of people are an established problem in China, should the Chinese government consider banning knives?

Knives are a tool in society. Like a screwdriver or a chainsaw. We use knives daily to cut food, open boxes, etc. I believe that certain knives can be banned due to their size, but outright banning of all knives is ludicrous.

Also,

Why don't we see these kinds of attacks in other countries where knives are legal?

I am sure there are attacks in other countries; however, the biggest difference between a knife and a firearm is that I have a better chance of running away or charging my attacker than if they had a semi automatic assault rifle.

I am sure this point was already made, but...if so...I agree with this assertion.