Why are we more comfortable with murder than rape?

[Funkyterrance]

People, Im siding with Army here. I mean, really?I think it can be joked about, but Im not going to walk up to someone who was raped and make a joke about it. And in the sense of rape, no, it is not a joke, it is serious and should be punished. In joking context, its the same as racists jokes or sexual jokes, obviously the party who is being made fun of is not going to appreciate it unless they are open to a sense of humor, which victims of rape obviously wouldnt be. Why would you not be serious about it around someone who was raped?

Ok so lets try this scenario:
You're at a party with a person(choose ethnicity) and you have friendly light conversation. You hop into the next room and start telling racist jokes about that particular ethnicity. There's nothing duplicitous/dishonest about this?

[Army of GOD]

People, Im siding with Army here. I mean, really?I think it can be joked about, but Im not going to walk up to someone who was raped and make a joke about it. And in the sense of rape, no, it is not a joke, it is serious and should be punished. In joking context, its the same as racists jokes or sexual jokes, obviously the party who is being made fun of is not going to appreciate it unless they are open to a sense of humor, which victims of rape obviously wouldnt be. Why would you not be serious about it around someone who was raped?

Ok so lets try this scenario:
You're at a party with a person(choose ethnicity) and you have friendly light conversation. You hop into the next room and start telling racist jokes about that particular ethnicity. There's nothing duplicitous/dishonest about this?

What? No...?

Just because I make jokes about race doesn't make me racist. That's like saying, just because I make jokes about height or eye color I'm heightist or eye colorist.

Apparently what you're saying is that either (1) you have no blonde friends or (2) you've never made a blonde joke in your life. Which I highly doubt. Which makes you "dishonest".

[new guy1]

People, Im siding with Army here. I mean, really?I think it can be joked about, but Im not going to walk up to someone who was raped and make a joke about it. And in the sense of rape, no, it is not a joke, it is serious and should be punished. In joking context, its the same as racists jokes or sexual jokes, obviously the party who is being made fun of is not going to appreciate it unless they are open to a sense of humor, which victims of rape obviously wouldnt be. Why would you not be serious about it around someone who was raped?

Ok so lets try this scenario:
You're at a party with a person(choose ethnicity) and you have friendly light conversation. You hop into the next room and start telling racist jokes about that particular ethnicity. There's nothing duplicitous/dishonest about this?

What? No...?

Just because I make jokes about race doesn't make me racist. That's like saying, just because I make jokes about height or eye color I'm heightist or eye colorist.

Apparently what you're saying is that either (1) you have no blonde friends or (2) you've never made a blonde joke in your life. Which I highly doubt. Which makes you "dishonest".

I like this response very much. And also, I can see where if you take the definition down to the very literal definition, it could be seen as that, but no, I do not see it as that. I see it as living my life and avoiding an argument because I make jokes in my free time. Im blonde, I am not offended by blonde jokes, I am not offended that somewhere in the world there are a couple of people that are bored making jokes about blondes. It is not morally wrong to me. Likewise, I do not take lightly to racism, slavery, etc. Does that mean that I can not laugh about it without being racist or telling every black person I meet "Hi, Im so and so, Im 17, I crack racist jokes in my free time", I think not.

[Funkyterrance]

People, Im siding with Army here. I mean, really?I think it can be joked about, but Im not going to walk up to someone who was raped and make a joke about it. And in the sense of rape, no, it is not a joke, it is serious and should be punished. In joking context, its the same as racists jokes or sexual jokes, obviously the party who is being made fun of is not going to appreciate it unless they are open to a sense of humor, which victims of rape obviously wouldnt be. Why would you not be serious about it around someone who was raped?

Ok so lets try this scenario:
You're at a party with a person(choose ethnicity) and you have friendly light conversation. You hop into the next room and start telling racist jokes about that particular ethnicity. There's nothing duplicitous/dishonest about this?

What? No...?

Just because I make jokes about race doesn't make me racist. That's like saying, just because I make jokes about height or eye color I'm heightist or eye colorist.

Apparently what you're saying is that either (1) you have no blonde friends or (2) you've never made a blonde joke in your life. Which I highly doubt. Which makes you "dishonest".

I think someone has to be some degree of racist to:
A:Find a racist joke funny.
B:Go to the length of repeating a racist joke (this requires a higher level of racism imho).
However, this is somewhat beside the point.

As far as the blonde joke thing goes, yes I've probably told a blonde joke at some point in my life. The thing is, I didn't not tell blonde jokes when there were blondes around and tell them when there weren't. If I was being prejudiced, everyone around me knew it, including blonde people. Herein lies the difference between your and my examples and shows how one is deceptive and the other is not.

[Army of GOD]

I find it somewhat hard to believe that you've never told a blonde joke unless a blonde was around. And it's not like I say racist jokes only when I'm not surrounded by a certain race. I make asian jokes around asians, black jokes around blacks, hispanic jokes around hispanics and white jokes around whites.

Anyway, this is hardly close to the point that I'm making. Just because I make jokes about rape doesn't mean I'm a rapist sympathizer or that I enjoy rape. Saying "I'm going to rape your face" in a facetious manner doesn't mean I can't honestly support someone who has been legitimately raped. I know a lot of people that died (a lot that have been close to me too), does that mean I can't find death funny? no...

[new guy1]

I do not deceive people, the people I know that are of the races I make jokes about know I say them, I just dont say them around them because that would make it uncomfortable. Repeating what AoG said, Just because I tell a joke does not mean I sympathize with it. I have made black jokes in front of blacks once, jew jokes in front of jews, homosexual in front of homosexual etc, but only with people I know wont think Im a douche for it. Just because I dont want to get beaten because I told a joke doesnt mean I am being deceitful.

[Funkyterrance]

Anyway, this is hardly close to the point that I'm making. Just because I make jokes about rape doesn't mean I'm a rapist sympathizer or that I enjoy rape.

No it doesn't mean you are necessarily any of these things and I don't think I ever said that. It does stand to reason that someone who finds rape jokes funny is possibly more likely to partake in it. Again, we stray...
You did, however, imply that you led a person who was raped to believe that you didn't find anything funny about rape. I think we both well know that if any of the people you mentioned were raped had read the rape jokes you posted on here they would have viewed you as an insensitive icky person and proceeded to leave you alone. You however, evidently lead them to believe that you were indeed sensitive to the issue so yes, you were dishonest.

I have made black jokes in front of blacks once, jew jokes in front of jews, homosexual in front of homosexual etc, but only with people I know wont think Im a douche for it.

That's nice. Do you think those people enjoy the jokes as thoroughly as you do?

[new guy1]

Because he is willing to be serious about the situation around someone who has experienced it and doesnt make a joke about it, that is being dishonest? I feel as though that falls into the category of protecting someone with a white lie. If someone came to me and asked if rape was funny, I would say no. If someone told me a joke about rape, and it was funny, then I would laugh. Does that mean I think the subject is funny? No. In a joking context? Yes.

[Army of GOD]

Anyway, this is hardly close to the point that I'm making. Just because I make jokes about rape doesn't mean I'm a rapist sympathizer or that I enjoy rape.

No it doesn't mean you are necessarily any of these things and I don't think I ever said that. It does stand to reason that someone who finds rape jokes funny is possibly more likely to partake in it. Again, we stray...
You did, however, imply that you led a person who was raped to believe that you didn't find anything funny about rape. I think we both well know that if any of the people you mentioned were raped had read the rape jokes you posted on here they would have viewed you as an insensitive icky person and proceeded to leave you alone. You however, evidently lead them to believe that you were indeed sensitive to the issue so yes, you were dishonest.

No, dishonesty means that I lied. Just because I might imply to them that I don't find rape funny doesn't mean I come out and say it. They infer things about me how they want...unless I explicitly say something it isn't dishonesty.

[Funkyterrance]

Anyway, this is hardly close to the point that I'm making. Just because I make jokes about rape doesn't mean I'm a rapist sympathizer or that I enjoy rape.

No it doesn't mean you are necessarily any of these things and I don't think I ever said that. It does stand to reason that someone who finds rape jokes funny is possibly more likely to partake in it. Again, we stray...
You did, however, imply that you led a person who was raped to believe that you didn't find anything funny about rape. I think we both well know that if any of the people you mentioned were raped had read the rape jokes you posted on here they would have viewed you as an insensitive icky person and proceeded to leave you alone. You however, evidently lead them to believe that you were indeed sensitive to the issue so yes, you were dishonest.

No, dishonesty means that I lied. Just because I might imply to them that I don't find rape funny doesn't mean I come out and say it. They infer things about me how they want...unless I explicitly say something it isn't dishonesty.

Ah, I see: The only form of dishonesty is flat out lying to someone's face.

[BigBallinStalin]

Anyway, this is hardly close to the point that I'm making. Just because I make jokes about rape doesn't mean I'm a rapist sympathizer or that I enjoy rape.

No it doesn't mean you are necessarily any of these things and I don't think I ever said that. It does stand to reason that someone who finds rape jokes funny is possibly more likely to partake in it.

As your position melts away, you frantically grasp at straws.

You did, however, imply that you led a person who was raped to believe that you didn't find anything funny about rape. I think we both well know that if any of the people you mentioned were raped had read the rape jokes you posted on here they would have viewed you as an insensitive icky person and proceeded to leave you alone. You however, evidently lead them to believe that you were indeed sensitive to the issue so yes, you were dishonest.

You're still not getting it, so lemme ask you something. What role does context play while making a joke?

For example, what is the difference between the two following statements:

(1) That time in Southpark when the Woodland Critters raped Kurt Russell was hilarious.

(2) That time when my girlfriend got raped was hilarious.

[Gillipig]

Humans are killers by nature. More than rapists actually. Although we seem to like that as well. Now go on and tell me why you think we're an inherently good species. (if that's what you think)

[thegreekdog]

Are we more sensitive to rape because of some paternal instinct relative to women? In other words, are we more likely to not talk about rape because we do not treat women equally?

[strike wolf]

There is something dehumanizing about non-consensual rape (I say that as I am excluding statuatory rape where both partners are willing but there's an issue of legal age which qualifies it as rape). Especially in American culture. We grow up with this notion that we have free will and someone comes along and takes that away in a very personal way and if they don't kill us they leave us in that state where we know what happened. Not to mention that rape is not a soft crime by any means. Raping someone often involves either drugging someone (date rape) or violently accosting them if not both. I have never been raped myself so I cannot say with absolute certainty but that to me sounds a horrible horrible thing to happen to anyone.

[Gillipig]

Are we more sensitive to rape because of some paternal instinct relative to women? In other words, are we more likely to not talk about rape because we do not treat women equally?

Women are more important than men because they can give birth to babies. One man can replace a hundred men, no woman can replace a hundred women......................unless that woman is Octomom.

[AndyDufresne]

There often has been a stigma around rape---more "blaming the victim" than in murder cases usually.


--Andy

[Gillipig]

There often has been a stigma around rape---more "blaming the victim" than in murder cases usually.


--Andy

Isn't "killing in self defense" all about blaming the victim?

[AndyDufresne]

There often has been a stigma around rape---more "blaming the victim" than in murder cases usually.


--Andy

Isn't "killing in self defense" all about blaming the victim?

Maybe, but there is less of a stigma still I think, since someone will (and many have) say killing in self defense was justified because of x,y,z. That justification is largely absent in rape cases I think.


--Andy

[kentington]

There is something dehumanizing about non-consensual rape (I say that as I am excluding statuatory rape where both partners are willing but there's an issue of legal age which qualifies it as rape). Especially in American culture. We grow up with this notion that we have free will and someone comes along and takes that away in a very personal way and if they don't kill us they leave us in that state where we know what happened. Not to mention that rape is not a soft crime by any means. Raping someone often involves either drugging someone (date rape) or violently accosting them if not both. I have never been raped myself so I cannot say with absolute certainty but that to me sounds a horrible horrible thing to happen to anyone.

I agree with this 100%.

It is a horrible attack on free will that this person now has to live with the rest of their lives. For me personally, I would rather die then be raped.


As to AoG and FT's discussion:

I understand what you mean AoG about context. I understand it completely. I think for a rape victim context doesn't matter. Racial jokes, blonde jokes, and even homosexual jokes don't necessarily dredge up the experience a rape victim will have. I'm not saying it wont, this is just what I first think of and when talking about comfort it is initial reactions.

[Gillipig]

There often has been a stigma around rape---more "blaming the victim" than in murder cases usually.


--Andy

Isn't "killing in self defense" all about blaming the victim?

Maybe, but there is less of a stigma still I think, since someone will (and many have) say killing in self defense was justified because of x,y,z. That justification is largely absent in rape cases I think.


--Andy

I think there's less blaming the victim in rape than in murder cases. How many times don't people get away with killing someone in self defense? What they're saying is; "I had to kill him because he did......bla bla
That's what I call really blaming someone. Sayig that they have themselves to blame for not being alive anymore. Can you blame anyone more than that? lol
Not saying it's always wrong, but we sure do blame people for getting killed.

[kentington]

There often has been a stigma around rape---more "blaming the victim" than in murder cases usually.


--Andy

Isn't "killing in self defense" all about blaming the victim?

If they are truly killing in self defense, then I say the victim isn't the one who died.

If you are attacked and someone produces a knife and you get into a mode to protect yourself and keep yourself from dying. You end up killing the guy with the knife.

Let's not get into all of the details about what choices you had and how you could just sit there and take it. Instincts kick in and you are fighting.

In this case and cases like this, with legitimate self defense, the person didn't want to kill or be killed and now they have to live with the fact that they killed someone. This wasn't really their choice. Free will has been taken away in some degree and they are the victim.

[Gillipig]

There often has been a stigma around rape---more "blaming the victim" than in murder cases usually.


--Andy

Isn't "killing in self defense" all about blaming the victim?

If they are truly killing in self defense, then I say the victim isn't the one who died.

If you are attacked and someone produces a knife and you get into a mode to protect yourself and keep yourself from dying. You end up killing the guy with the knife.

Let's not get into all of the details about what choices you had and how you could just sit there and take it. Instincts kick in and you are fighting.

In this case and cases like this, with legitimate self defense, the person didn't want to kill or be killed and now they have to live with the fact that they killed someone. This wasn't really their choice. Free will has been taken away in some degree and they are the victim.

I find it hard to get myself to say that the person who ended up dead wasn't a victim. There may be several victims in one scenario. If you're killed, you've been deprived of your life, which makes you a victim. To make a comparison, many convicted pedophiles were themselves raped as young, they are both victims and criminals.

[Gillipig]

I don't like painting up the world in black and white. Life is a colourful grayscale, there is no good and bad, but that doesn't take away it's grandness.

[kentington]

I find it hard to get myself to say that the person who ended up dead wasn't a victim. There may be several victims in one scenario. If you're killed, you've been deprived of your life, which makes you a victim. To make a comparison, many convicted pedophiles were themselves raped as young, they are both victims and criminals.

I understand what you are saying and I can agree that there would be multiple victims in a given situation. But one of them willingly put themselves in that situation. I find them less of a victim.

The comparison isn't really similar. This would be the equivalent:
If someone had an attempt on their life as a child and then went on to be a murderer then this person would be both victim and criminal.

[Gillipig]

I find it hard to get myself to say that the person who ended up dead wasn't a victim. There may be several victims in one scenario. If you're killed, you've been deprived of your life, which makes you a victim. To make a comparison, many convicted pedophiles were themselves raped as young, they are both victims and criminals.

I understand what you are saying and I can agree that there would be multiple victims in a given situation. But one of them willingly put themselves in that situation. I find them less of a victim.

The comparison isn't really similar. This would be the equivalent:
If someone had an attempt on their life as a child and then went on to be a murderer then this person would be both victim and criminal.

So you're saying that someone who was raped as a child, and then goes on to rape other children when he grows up, isn't both a victim and criminal?
He clearly is, so the comparison works.

Also it's not always clear who's the attacker, it could be a situation where one person starts the fight, the other overreacts and tries to kill the instigator and he defends himself and in the process kill the other. In that case, the same person who started the fight and killed the other can still get away with defending himself if the judges deem the overreaction severe enough.