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People thinking the Rational mind is all

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People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:05 pm

I'm sad to see very smart individuals thinking they know it all, they know best, that positivism and science are the ultimate truth.

I'm an atheist. I believe and am aware of what science has given us. Yet I know for sure that the way people is taking science nowadays is wrong. It's like it was the new god and if you were not with him you were dumb and lost. Pretty much like organized religion?

Don't confuse me with Viceroy. I'm not saying the world was created in 6 days.

The rational mind isn't it all. People seem to think that if it's not rational it's not true. This is so obvious that we must make a big faith effort not to see it, rationalism has become the new religion for many, a new religion that doesn't offer as good counsel for troubled minds like the old ones.

That's all I have to say for now.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby crispybits on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:16 pm

I'm pretty sure some people will know my position on this, and others will incorrectly guess, but I have one question:

On the basis that it is entirely rational to say "I don't know" about things which science and rational thought cannot provide answers to, and therefore we should assume that there is an unknown amount of "stuff" which we do not know at present, what other position than rationalism (i.e saying we do not know) should we use to decide on the placeholder answers (the best guess for now admitting to lack of evidence or knowledge) to questions about this "stuff"?
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby GreecePwns on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:20 pm

The thought isn't "if it's not rational, it's not true."

The thought is "if it's true, it can be explained rationally." Whether or not we have the technological, scientific, etc. capabilities to do the explaining is is another thing entirely. If we had infinite knowledge and therefore infinite technological capabilities, everything in the world would most definitely be explained rationally.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:43 pm

crispybits wrote:I'm pretty sure some people will know my position on this, and others will incorrectly guess, but I have one question:

On the basis that it is entirely rational to say "I don't know" about things which science and rational thought cannot provide answers to, and therefore we should assume that there is an unknown amount of "stuff" which we do not know at present, what other position than rationalism (i.e saying we do not know) should we use to decide on the placeholder answers (the best guess for now admitting to lack of evidence or knowledge) to questions about this "stuff"?


I'm not sure if I understand your question.

What I think is that we try to push answers because they sound rational. Our rational mind serve us to take conscious decisions. The thought that we can find out how everything works is very good one because it take us to make the effort to understand, with the scientific method. But there are things that are still unresolved and are far to be resolved by science. In fact, odds are we will never understand it all by science alone.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:50 pm

GreecePwns wrote:The thought isn't "if it's not rational, it's not true."

The thought is "if it's true, it can be explained rationally." Whether or not we have the technological, scientific, etc. capabilities to do the explaining is is another thing entirely. If we had infinite knowledge and therefore infinite technological capabilities, everything in the world would most definitely be explained rationally.


Infinite knowledge, is that a possibility for the rational mind?

The real matter is to accept what reality really is and not what it adapts itself to be understood by science in our current times. If something cannot be understood by our current science, why push it that it must adapt to it? That's far from being true science, true science should continue to seek for the laws that governs our world.

Quantum mechanics exist now because a handful of scientists noticed that the laws of the time didn't explain the particular level of matter/waves, and instead of being stubborn that reality must adapt to newtonian laws they observed and developed the new model. We would have computers without quantum physics.

Science is not a god. Science is a tool.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Lootifer on Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:31 pm

Sounds like you're more of an agnostic rather than an athiest Niet.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:36 pm

Well, science is an exceedingly useful tool. The one real drawback to it is that the more you understand the universe, the more you understand how pointless everything is. We really are nothing more than mindless animals. All our rationality doesn't change our path one inch from our programmed mandate to eat, drink, fight, and f*ck. Even if you're the world's greatest scientist, about to win the Nobel Prize, what does that mean? It means your Neanderthal brain is excited about being lauded and feted by your peers, because then they will give you the choicest cuts of the bison and access to the most fertile females.

Even if by some amazing feat you were to overcome your base instincts, none of it will matter. Eventually entropy claims everything. The universe expands, and eventually not even the simpler forms of matter will exists. Most people can't hope that their deeds will be remembered two weeks after their funeral, but even those who have accomplished greatness are not remembered more than a few decades by anyone except a few specialists in their field and students forced to (temporarily) note their existence in order to pass some kind of examination.

We "oooh" and "ahhh" over the "timeless" nature of the pyramids, but the 5 to 6 thousand years that they have stood is but an instant in geological time. Even at that, they are in piss-poor repair. All their treasures have been stolen, all their facing stones are gone, and even the structural stones on exposed faces are heavily worn and crumbling on the corners. And that's after a few thousand years. In a million years they'll be hillocks of sand. "Timeless" my fat ass. And in a few trillion years even "sand" will be a concept no longer capable of being framed, as fermions are too far apart to even form bosons.

Faced with the utter hopelessness that an honest assessment of reality brings, why shouldn't one retreat into a fantasy world of narcotics, religion, or computer games? If you're capable of the monumental self-deception required to believe in a personal God, you're well on your way to a happy and well-adjusted life. My God's bigger than your God! Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:48 pm

I've got some Dr. BallinStalin's Elixer for sale--if you want to cure your problems.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:49 pm

Lootifer wrote:Sounds like you're more of an agnostic rather than an athiest Niet.


I'm not an agnostic because I do not believe in gods or creators or anything like that, but I'm aware that there is more that what we perceive with our senses. Our senses are a medium to perceive reality, but they are limited. We draw conclusions, inductive and deductive reasoning and we get valuable information, but as much as it's possible with the data we have.

I think that the world is governed by laws, but the laws we know now aren't the only laws, or ultimate laws. I read somewhere that the laws of the universe are changing, I'm not sure about this as I didn't research further but might be the case if the universe is expanding, or it could be that the ultimate laws don't change, that are the particular ones that do.

What I dislike is the arrogance that faithful believers in science presume. Science need scientists, and scientists need to eat. Money says what is researched and what is not. Moreover, we are smarter than our rational mind. Our instincts defy reason (at least until someone comes with an explanation we accept, only to be refuted 50 years later while the instinct remains) yet they are more valuable.

Just look at the web. There's an big amount of sites on spirituality and cures for depression, mainly because science might set us free from the chains of religion, but at the same time it leave us feeling baseless. Our instinct tell us we need a deeper connection within ourselves, although reason tell us all we need is a big mac, a house in the suburbs and a nice car.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Just_essence on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:54 pm

I agree with Dukasaur. To enable ourselves to make any sort of conclusion, we base it on assumptions in order to be able to do anything with what we have. However, basing it on assumptions only means that you're making the problem easier by cutting out a gigantic portion with the assumptions. But that really is the only way to do something, isn't it? Otherwise the problem cannot be solved. We can only discover more and more sets of assumptions, which in piece gives us bit by bit anothe truth of the universe. But, in the end, if we try to discard the assumptions and piece it all together, it will be impossible for our minds, for having no assumptions and facts to hang on to, we can't understand anything, and it really is insanity. So really, the only way to view the universe is in pieces, but as a whole, we'll go mad.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:56 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Well, science is an exceedingly useful tool. The one real drawback to it is that the more you understand the universe, the more you understand how pointless everything is. We really are nothing more than mindless animals. All our rationality doesn't change our path one inch from our programmed mandate to eat, drink, fight, and f*ck. Even if you're the world's greatest scientist, about to win the Nobel Prize, what does that mean? It means your Neanderthal brain is excited about being lauded and feted by your peers, because then they will give you the choicest cuts of the bison and access to the most fertile females.

Even if by some amazing feat you were to overcome your base instincts, none of it will matter. Eventually entropy claims everything. The universe expands, and eventually not even the simpler forms of matter will exists. Most people can't hope that their deeds will be remembered two weeks after their funeral, but even those who have accomplished greatness are not remembered more than a few decades by anyone except a few specialists in their field and students forced to (temporarily) note their existence in order to pass some kind of examination.

We "oooh" and "ahhh" over the "timeless" nature of the pyramids, but the 5 to 6 thousand years that they have stood is but an instant in geological time. Even at that, they are in piss-poor repair. All their treasures have been stolen, all their facing stones are gone, and even the structural stones on exposed faces are heavily worn and crumbling on the corners. And that's after a few thousand years. In a million years they'll be hillocks of sand. "Timeless" my fat ass. And in a few trillion years even "sand" will be a concept no longer capable of being framed, as fermions are too far apart to even form bosons.

Faced with the utter hopelessness that an honest assessment of reality brings, why shouldn't one retreat into a fantasy world of narcotics, religion, or computer games? If you're capable of the monumental self-deception required to believe in a personal God, you're well on your way to a happy and well-adjusted life. My God's bigger than your God! Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah!


Maybe because you are asking the wrong questions? Who says those are the questions that you need to ask? Maybe our "whyyy?" is helpful for some things but it's bad for us in big quantities?

"Damn it, why can't we eat rocks for food, rocks are free"

This is not unrelated, we must accept our responsability in life. The moment we accept we are responsible for ourselves all those questions vanish, and we face life in a more meaningful and optimistic way. It's a matter of attitude in this case.

And this responsibility I'm talking about you can find about almost everywhere, from philosophy, different psyco-therapies approach, new counseling approaches, different religions, even in shady self help approachs.

I'd recommend reading about it because the way we take that concept, "responsibility" is different of what it really means. The moment you understand it it hits you.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:59 pm

Just_essence wrote:I agree with Dukasaur. To enable ourselves to make any sort of conclusion, we base it on assumptions in order to be able to do anything with what we have. However, basing it on assumptions only means that you're making the problem easier by cutting out a gigantic portion with the assumptions. But that really is the only way to do something, isn't it? Otherwise the problem cannot be solved. We can only discover more and more sets of assumptions, which in piece gives us bit by bit anothe truth of the universe. But, in the end, if we try to discard the assumptions and piece it all together, it will be impossible for our minds, for having no assumptions and facts to hang on to, we can't understand anything, and it really is insanity. So really, the only way to view the universe is in pieces, but as a whole, we'll go mad.


The truth is subjective, said Kierkegaard, and by that he meant that you have to experience it. You think you'll go mad because you are thinking that all you have is your rational mind.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:01 pm

nietzsche wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Sounds like you're more of an agnostic rather than an athiest Niet.


Just look at the web. There's an big amount of sites on spirituality and cures for depression, mainly because science might set us free from the chains of religion, but at the same time it leave us feeling baseless. Our instinct tell us we need a deeper connection within ourselves, although reason tell us all we need is a big mac, a house in the suburbs and a nice car.


No, it doesn't. For example, (1) I feel incomplete, and these material objects aren't doing enough for me. (2) Therefore, I should look into some religious practices.

(3) Ah, Buddhism. Hmm, meditation?

(4) <Tries it. Gets good results>


Wow, with reason, that was possible, but from nietz perspective it isn't.

Case closed.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Just_essence on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:02 pm

I see. So I guess that if I was to revise my post, I would say that trying to use the rational mind only will result in the rational mind going mad.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:09 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Sounds like you're more of an agnostic rather than an athiest Niet.


Just look at the web. There's an big amount of sites on spirituality and cures for depression, mainly because science might set us free from the chains of religion, but at the same time it leave us feeling baseless. Our instinct tell us we need a deeper connection within ourselves, although reason tell us all we need is a big mac, a house in the suburbs and a nice car.


No, it doesn't. For example, (1) I feel incomplete, and these material objects aren't doing enough for me. (2) Therefore, I should look into some religious practices.

(3) Ah, Buddhism. Hmm, meditation?

(4) <Tries it. Gets good results>


Wow, with reason, that was possible, but from nietz perspective it isn't.

Case closed.


Question is, why did we think material objects were enough? Reason is great to explain things, only you need to know those things in advance. Plato knew this, I forget in which dialogue he mentions it. In fact, upon accepting responsibilty, one becomes better at using reason, don't use it for everything, but when it's needed, it's used without clouds of the dispair that trusting 100% in reason brings.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:20 pm

enough wacko talk or should i continue ?
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:25 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Even if you're the world's greatest scientist, about to win the Nobel Prize, what does that mean? It means your Neanderthal brain is excited about being lauded and feted by your peers, because then they will give you the choicest cuts of the bison and access to the most fertile females.


You need to let me know which Nobel laureates you're hanging out with, because none of the ones I know of are what one would consider ladies' men.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:26 pm

nietzsche wrote:enough wacko talk or should i continue ?

You realize if you go too far I might respond in kind...:P
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:27 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Even if you're the world's greatest scientist, about to win the Nobel Prize, what does that mean? It means your Neanderthal brain is excited about being lauded and feted by your peers, because then they will give you the choicest cuts of the bison and access to the most fertile females.


You need to let me know which Nobel laureates you're hanging out with, because none of the ones I know of are what one would consider ladies' men.

Just because someone has developed the habit of sublimating their urges doesn't mean those urges have vanished.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:27 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Even if you're the world's greatest scientist, about to win the Nobel Prize, what does that mean? It means your Neanderthal brain is excited about being lauded and feted by your peers, because then they will give you the choicest cuts of the bison and access to the most fertile females.


You need to let me know which Nobel laureates you're hanging out with, because none of the ones I know of are what one would consider ladies' men.


They get one million dollars right? With that amount of money they surely can pay for fertility treatments for their wives.
Last edited by nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby tzor on Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:54 pm

nietzsche wrote:enough wacko talk or should i continue ?


Please continue.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:38 pm

nietzsche wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Sounds like you're more of an agnostic rather than an athiest Niet.


Just look at the web. There's an big amount of sites on spirituality and cures for depression, mainly because science might set us free from the chains of religion, but at the same time it leave us feeling baseless. Our instinct tell us we need a deeper connection within ourselves, although reason tell us all we need is a big mac, a house in the suburbs and a nice car.


No, it doesn't. For example, (1) I feel incomplete, and these material objects aren't doing enough for me. (2) Therefore, I should look into some religious practices.

(3) Ah, Buddhism. Hmm, meditation?

(4) <Tries it. Gets good results>


Wow, with reason, that was possible, but from nietz perspective it isn't.

Case closed.


Question is, why did we think material objects were enough? Reason is great to explain things, only you need to know those things in advance. Plato knew this, I forget in which dialogue he mentions it. In fact, upon accepting responsibilty, one becomes better at using reason, don't use it for everything, but when it's needed, it's used without clouds of the dispair that trusting 100% in reason brings.


You do realize that with reason one can concede "I'm not 100% certain of X," right?

Currently, ITT you've been mischaracterizing advocates for reason or those subscribing solely to "the Rational mind."

We can both admit that people 'think' with reason as well as emotion. Emotion/feelings will always tinge our ability to reason, but that's okay to a degree.

The problem is when people significantly forego or discount reason, and heavily substitute it for feeling. Then, this method of thinking is applied to a huge scope of issues--not just love, god, or what have you, but almost everything. By foregoing reason and in turn failing to correct for cognitive bias, many people lead themselves and others astray--in the form of racism, prejudice, state socialism, etc.
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:39 pm

nietzsche wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Even if you're the world's greatest scientist, about to win the Nobel Prize, what does that mean? It means your Neanderthal brain is excited about being lauded and feted by your peers, because then they will give you the choicest cuts of the bison and access to the most fertile females.


You need to let me know which Nobel laureates you're hanging out with, because none of the ones I know of are what one would consider ladies' men.


They get one million dollars right? With that amount of money they surely can pay for fertility treatments for their wives.


or do two chicks at the same time.
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby nietzsche on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:26 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
nietzsche wrote:
Lootifer wrote:Sounds like you're more of an agnostic rather than an athiest Niet.


Just look at the web. There's an big amount of sites on spirituality and cures for depression, mainly because science might set us free from the chains of religion, but at the same time it leave us feeling baseless. Our instinct tell us we need a deeper connection within ourselves, although reason tell us all we need is a big mac, a house in the suburbs and a nice car.


No, it doesn't. For example, (1) I feel incomplete, and these material objects aren't doing enough for me. (2) Therefore, I should look into some religious practices.

(3) Ah, Buddhism. Hmm, meditation?

(4) <Tries it. Gets good results>


Wow, with reason, that was possible, but from nietz perspective it isn't.

Case closed.


Question is, why did we think material objects were enough? Reason is great to explain things, only you need to know those things in advance. Plato knew this, I forget in which dialogue he mentions it. In fact, upon accepting responsibilty, one becomes better at using reason, don't use it for everything, but when it's needed, it's used without clouds of the dispair that trusting 100% in reason brings.


You do realize that with reason one can concede "I'm not 100% certain of X," right?

Currently, ITT you've been mischaracterizing advocates for reason or those subscribing solely to "the Rational mind."

We can both admit that people 'think' with reason as well as emotion. Emotion/feelings will always tinge our ability to reason, but that's okay to a degree.

The problem is when people significantly forego or discount reason, and heavily substitute it for feeling. Then, this method of thinking is applied to a huge scope of issues--not just love, god, or what have you, but almost everything. By foregoing reason and in turn failing to correct for cognitive bias, many people lead themselves and others astray--in the form of racism, prejudice, state socialism, etc.


Reason indeed well used can explain everything, because it bases it's power in understanding and premises that are fact. But reason has its realm. You do not decide what you want in life because of reason. You use introspection for that, or at least you should. Then, when you have decided, you make use of reason, among other things, to get to your goal.

If you were to use reason for that, things will not turn out well.

Do you use reason for setting your goals BBS? -- (BBS answers: WHy yes nietzsche, I do) -- Really? Think about it. Did you use only deductive reasoning? Or did you tune in to what your inner voice wanted? Try to recreate when you are finally having a beer on Friday Night, Nola by your side, and you find a moment of inspiration and say.. "you know what Nola? I'm going to bang that girl.. I'm going to ask her out on Monday".. was it reason? or was it the accumulation of semen in your balls?
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Re: People thinking the Rational mind is all

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:47 pm

So don't be reasonable all the time, instead give into your imperfections and weaknesses sometimes too?
I don't understand exactly?
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