Nudging

by **DoomYoshi** on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:23 pm

Ok, this thread had to come about eventually.

I raised an issue in the BBSvTGD education thread that as a society, we should not allow dangerous ideas to proliferate. In the same way that government bans drugs because users can harm themselves.

Now, there is a lot of opposition to this idea because JS Mill has infected people's minds. The following quote is what I mean:

the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or mental, is not a sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right

I'm not going to attack this on the grounds that people don't actually know what is good for them any better than government does (which is an argument presented by Thaler and co.). Instead I will argue that even if "top-down" governmental nudging is immoral, "bottom-up" societal shaming of those indulging in destructive behaviors is not only moral, but commonplace. As such, we should collectively figure out what behaviors and thoughts are statistically most damaging (remember that in every category of human expertise, statistics are better than experts at predicting things) and then consciously shun those people.

For example, Obesity is a huge epidemic, especially amongst children. With child obesity rates soaring over 50%, and with 2/3 of the Canadian population expected to become diabetic, clearly something must be done. I suggest forcing fat people to ride at the back of the bus, and not allowing them to drive cars. This is doubly beneficial. Not only will they get more exercise, but there will be less people on the road trying to kill me.

Now I realize this sounds like government stuff, but we as people can just take up all the other seats on the bus and sprawl out when they try to sit down. Furthermore, car dealers can just hang out "No Fatties" signs.

However, I have other stuff to do, so I won't actually prove it.

by **Maugena** on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:35 pm

I actually agree with what you quoted...
Though I do think there should be some standards for everything.

by **oVo** on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:01 pm

Truth in Advertising would be a good start.

Staying on the subject of obesity as a problem; food packaging that states 0 grams of fat or fat free could display a warning label explaining "The sugar content in this product might make your ass look big." Since people's concepts of a healthy diet vary significantly.

by **thegreekdog** on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:13 am

Let's start at the beginning - Why do we care if people are fat? How do fat people negatively affect you?

After we determine that, we can talk about what to do about it.

Aside - I thought this thread was about nudging in internet gaming.

by **DoomYoshi** on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:35 am

thegreekdog wrote:Let's start at the beginning - Why do we care if people are fat? How do fat people negatively affect you?

After we determine that, we can talk about what to do about it.

Aside - I thought this thread was about nudging in internet gaming.

I have to (as a Canadian taxpayer) pay for their health care costs.
More unhealthy people drives up the price of healthcare.
Being surrounded by fat and/or ugly people makes workplaces less happy.
The fat clogs their brain and they make stupid, selfish decisions (no proof for that, but I don't think it is coincidence that my least favorite people are all fat) which affect me.

That is just the selfish reasons.

For the non-selfish reasons: if I see somebody committing suicide, and it is within my power to stop it, and low cost to me to stop it, but I don't - then i just killed them. Likewise, if I see someone going back for a 4th piece of pecan pie and I don't scream out: "Oh my God, you disgusting warthog, no wonder you sweat grease" then I have just made them fat.

by **thegreekdog** on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:44 am

DoomYoshi wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:Let's start at the beginning - Why do we care if people are fat? How do fat people negatively affect you?

After we determine that, we can talk about what to do about it.

Aside - I thought this thread was about nudging in internet gaming.

I have to (as a Canadian taxpayer) pay for their health care costs.
More unhealthy people drives up the price of healthcare.
Being surrounded by fat and/or ugly people makes workplaces less happy.
The fat clogs their brain and they make stupid, selfish decisions (no proof for that, but I don't think it is coincidence that my least favorite people are all fat) which affect me.

That is just the selfish reasons.

For the non-selfish reasons: if I see somebody committing suicide, and it is within my power to stop it, and low cost to me to stop it, but I don't - then i just killed them. Likewise, if I see someone going back for a 4th piece of pecan pie and I don't scream out: "Oh my God, you disgusting warthog, no wonder you sweat grease" then I have just made them fat.

I think mockery is a fine thing, although I suspect many fat people have been mocked most of their lives and therefore mocking has proven ineffective. Additionally, you run the risk of law suit depending upon the litigious nature of the object of your mocking; that could be a bad thing for you.

Paying for their healthcare and the rising costs of healthcare are legislative concerns for the most part. I suppose there could be a healthcare provider that only caters to not fat people and you could go to that healthcare provider.

Is your ultimate goal to rid the world of fat people? If that is your ultimate goal, do you believe that mockery would solve the problem of fat people?

by **DoomYoshi** on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:51 am

I think it might help. Right now if I were to do such a mockery (I mean in RL, not in forum) there would be some consideration that I am rude. Perhaps considering it not rude (a societal change in social mores) would help.

However, I haven't tried it, and I don't know if it would work. Are there any things I can do to help these people?

by **thegreekdog** on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:59 am

DoomYoshi wrote:I think it might help. Right now if I were to do such a mockery (I mean in RL, not in forum) there would be some consideration that I am rude. Perhaps considering it not rude (a societal change in social mores) would help.

However, I haven't tried it, and I don't know if it would work. Are there any things I can do to help these people?

I have no idea. I have struggled with my weight all my life, as have most members of my family. I generally found that outside influence is not helpful. One has to make a concerted effort on one's own to achieve a healthier lifestyle. No amound of noodling, mockery, or cadjoling is going to make someone lose weight, in my opinion. I recently lost about 40 pounds and have managed to keep it off. I feel better and look better and it was not a huge change for me to lose that weight (eat less, exercise more, drink less beer). I bring this up only to point out that my brother has gained copious amounts of weight. I worry about him so I tease him, cajole him, and mock him occasionally. That has not been effective. I'm sure your theory could be effective for some, but will it be effective enough?

There was a somewhat recent article from here in the United States positing that the reason children purchase candy bars as snacks instead of fruit is because candy bars are generally cheaper. As a formerly fat person, I will tell you that children purchase candy bars instead of fruit because CANDY BARS FUCKING TASTE BETTER!

Anyway, I wish you luck in your endeavor.

by **BigBallinStalin** on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:38 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:I think it might help. Right now if I were to do such a mockery (I mean in RL, not in forum) there would be some consideration that I am rude. Perhaps considering it not rude (a societal change in social mores) would help.

However, I haven't tried it, and I don't know if it would work. Are there any things I can do to help these people?

I have no idea. I have struggled with my weight all my life, as have most members of my family. I generally found that outside influence is not helpful. One has to make a concerted effort on one's own to achieve a healthier lifestyle. No amound of noodling, mockery, or cadjoling is going to make someone lose weight, in my opinion. I recently lost about 40 pounds and have managed to keep it off. I feel better and look better and it was not a huge change for me to lose that weight (eat less, exercise more, drink less beer). I bring this up only to point out that my brother has gained copious amounts of weight. I worry about him so I tease him, cajole him, and mock him occasionally. That has not been effective. I'm sure your theory could be effective for some, but will it be effective enough?

There was a somewhat recent article from here in the United States positing that the reason children purchase candy bars as snacks instead of fruit is because candy bars are generally cheaper. As a formerly fat person, I will tell you that children purchase candy bars instead of fruit because CANDY BARS FUCKING TASTE BETTER!

Anyway, I wish you luck in your endeavor.

And they're cheaper.

We must tax all the candy bars!

by **TA1LGUNN3R** on Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:02 pm

Doom wrote:For the non-selfish reasons: if I see somebody committing suicide, and it is within my power to stop it, and low cost to me to stop it, but I don't - then i just killed them.

No, they killed themselves. You don't have an obligation to them.

-TG

by **thegreekdog** on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:51 am

The University of Pennsylvania Health System is reportedly going to refuse to hire people who smoke or use chewing tobacco. I wonder how long it will take them to apply those standards to overweight people.

by **BigBallinStalin** on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:53 am

thegreekdog wrote:The University of Pennsylvania Health System is reportedly going to refuse to hire people who smoke or use chewing tobacco. I wonder how long it will take them to apply those standards to overweight people.

Nothing wrong with being smokcist or chewcist, but fatcist? Hey now...

by **thegreekdog** on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:56 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:The University of Pennsylvania Health System is reportedly going to refuse to hire people who smoke or use chewing tobacco. I wonder how long it will take them to apply those standards to overweight people.

Nothing wrong with being smokcist or chewcist, but fatcist? Hey now...

My opinion is that these types of things will never apply to fat people since fat people (at least in the United States) make up the majority. Hell, we may have a fat president soon! I mean another fat president.

by **BigBallinStalin** on Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:58 am

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:The University of Pennsylvania Health System is reportedly going to refuse to hire people who smoke or use chewing tobacco. I wonder how long it will take them to apply those standards to overweight people.

Nothing wrong with being smokcist or chewcist, but fatcist? Hey now...

My opinion is that these types of things will never apply to fat people since fat people (at least in the United States) make up the majority. Hell, we may have a fat president soon! I mean another fat president.

I'll drop my standards and vote in the first fat president. What a landmark!

by **thegreekdog** on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:01 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:The University of Pennsylvania Health System is reportedly going to refuse to hire people who smoke or use chewing tobacco. I wonder how long it will take them to apply those standards to overweight people.

Nothing wrong with being smokcist or chewcist, but fatcist? Hey now...

My opinion is that these types of things will never apply to fat people since fat people (at least in the United States) make up the majority. Hell, we may have a fat president soon! I mean another fat president.

I'll drop my standards and vote in the first fat president. What a landmark!

Can I borrow your time machine when you're done, so I can also vote for Taft?