The optomism bias

[PLAYER57832]

I'm not going to argue with you as to whether the Catholic Church tells people how to live their lives. They do tell people how to live their lives. That is not really something we can have an argument about.

The question is whether the Catholic Church and the government (federal, state, and/or local) have the same ability to force you to live your life the way they want you to live your life.

No, the question is whether they insist the government make laws that force others to adhere to their church beliefs.
The answer to that is very much "yes". And all of that "nonsense" you dismissed above constitutes examples of ways they have done just that.

(and note.. I realize that you personally do not agree with all of the churches political stances on that.. but that doesn't mean the church is irrelevant)

The answer is no. The government can imprison me, kill me, or take my stuff. The Catholic Church can't do those things. .

The answer is "no" ONLY if you are not a believing Roman Catholic. Else, they have the power to do something worse than above, they can condemn your soul. When they use that power to tell politicians that they cannot take communion unless they support, politically, the church's position... that is very much dictating MY rights based upon their religion!

[PLAYER57832]

Because it is precisely why we cannot allow people to just choose their own healthcare coverage.

Wow. So who is this "we" that is smarter than everyone else to such a level that they can dictate personal life choices to other people? And if this rationale is acceptable for health care, then where does it stop?

Yes, DATA and trained medical opinions are more valid than your personal opinions, even about your own health.

You may have the right to decide to ignore that.. as long as the rest of us don't have to pay the consequences for your idiocy. The problem is that we DO have to pay. We have to pay when people don't get their kids vaccinated by having a resurgeance of diseases once eradicated and we have to pay by subsidizing care that you are not fully paying for unless you happen to be a billionaire.. note, not just a millionaire, but a billionaire.

[thegreekdog]

I'm not going to argue with you as to whether the Catholic Church tells people how to live their lives. They do tell people how to live their lives. That is not really something we can have an argument about.

The question is whether the Catholic Church and the government (federal, state, and/or local) have the same ability to force you to live your life the way they want you to live your life.

No, the question is whether they insist the government make laws that force others to adhere to their church beliefs.
The answer to that is very much "yes". And all of that "nonsense" you dismissed above constitutes examples of ways they have done just that.

(and note.. I realize that you personally do not agree with all of the churches political stances on that.. but that doesn't mean the church is irrelevant)

My personal beliefs are irrelevant to this discussion. The Church's lobby is what you're talking about (and the voting of members of the Church). Catholic voters themselves would have to be analyzed and, since more Catholic voters lean Democrat than Republican, I think it's pretty safe to say the Catholic lobby is ineffective.

The answer is no. The government can imprison me, kill me, or take my stuff. The Catholic Church can't do those things. .

The answer is "no" ONLY if you are not a believing Roman Catholic. Else, they have the power to do something worse than above, they can condemn your soul. When they use that power to tell politicians that they cannot take communion unless they support, politically, the church's position... that is very much dictating MY rights based upon their religion!

How is it dictating your rights? You aren't a practicing Catholic so withholding communion would not be a deterrant for you. Did Vice President Biden change his stance on abortion when threatened with the withholding of communion? Do you think that was a deterrant to Biden or do you think the government arrest of Biden would be more of a deterrant (if it was illegal to discuss a pro-choice stance)?

[AndyDufresne]

If you're devout, you would not likely be execommunicated.

I'm also curious now.

Maybe, but I don't think so always.


--Andy

[PLAYER57832]

since more Catholic voters lean Democrat than Republican, I think it's pretty safe to say the Catholic lobby is ineffective.

This is an incorrect assumption. The Roman Catholic Church was a major reason for voters saying "no" to same sex marriages in CA. They also have a huge influence on the Birth control debate, as they have in the other subjects I have mentioned.

The answer is no. The government can imprison me, kill me, or take my stuff. The Catholic Church can't do those things. .

The answer is "no" ONLY if you are not a believing Roman Catholic. Else, they have the power to do something worse than above, they can condemn your soul. When they use that power to tell politicians that they cannot take communion unless they support, politically, the church's position... that is very much dictating MY rights based upon their religion!

How is it dictating your rights? You aren't a practicing Catholic so withholding communion would not be a deterrant for you. Did Vice President Biden change his stance on abortion when threatened with the withholding of communion? Do you think that was a deterrant to Biden or do you think the government arrest of Biden would be more of a deterrant (if it was illegal to discuss a pro-choice stance)?[/quote]
I think you are intentionally minimizing the impact of the church because you wish it to be so.

Also, John Kerry is a better example of how they very much do impact politicians. When they try to influence politicians in their elected position as if they were acting on their own, as a parishoner then they absolutely DO impinge upon the rights of others unduly.

Either that, or we begin a campaign to not elect any Roman Catholics to office. Is that really what you want? That IS the result of their actions!

[thegreekdog]

since more Catholic voters lean Democrat than Republican, I think it's pretty safe to say the Catholic lobby is ineffective.

This is an incorrect assumption. The Roman Catholic Church was a major reason for voters saying "no" to same sex marriages in CA. They also have a huge influence on the Birth control debate, as they have in the other subjects I have mentioned.

The answer is no. The government can imprison me, kill me, or take my stuff. The Catholic Church can't do those things. .

The answer is "no" ONLY if you are not a believing Roman Catholic. Else, they have the power to do something worse than above, they can condemn your soul. When they use that power to tell politicians that they cannot take communion unless they support, politically, the church's position... that is very much dictating MY rights based upon their religion!

How is it dictating your rights? You aren't a practicing Catholic so withholding communion would not be a deterrant for you. Did Vice President Biden change his stance on abortion when threatened with the withholding of communion? Do you think that was a deterrant to Biden or do you think the government arrest of Biden would be more of a deterrant (if it was illegal to discuss a pro-choice stance)?

I think you are intentionally minimizing the impact of the church because you wish it to be so.

Also, John Kerry is a better example of how they very much do impact politicians. When they try to influence politicians in their elected position as if they were acting on their own, as a parishoner then they absolutely DO impinge upon the rights of others unduly.

Either that, or we begin a campaign to not elect any Roman Catholics to office. Is that really what you want? That IS the result of their actions![/quote]

Imagine me sticking my tongue out at you. Thanks.

[PLAYER57832]

Imagine me sticking my tongue out at you. Thanks.

In this case.. that sounds about right. Get back to me when you want to discuss like an adult who disagrees, rather than someone looking to justify his positions any way he can.

i.e. get back to me when you want to debate, not play attorney.

[thegreekdog]

Imagine me sticking my tongue out at you. Thanks.

In this case.. that sounds about right. Get back to me when you want to discuss like an adult who disagrees, rather than someone looking to justify his positions any way he can.

i.e. get back to me when you want to debate, not play attorney.

Stop stealing my posts.