RFID Good or Bad?

[BigBallinStalin]

Looks like your guessing about a bleak future from which you've assumed no escape.

[warmonger1981]

The problem is that now every aspect of a persons life can now be monitored 24-7. I don't think anyone wants to be put in a position to be scrutanized every second of their life. That is what a future with no privacy will be like. If a person is born into a life without the option of privacy fair? The market will decide if RFID is good or bad but will people be property educated about the negative effects of RFID?
From the people who brought you RFID Quote: "In yhe case of EPC network there are currently no clear benefits (for consumers) by which to balance even the mildest negative... The lack of clear benefits to consumers could present a problem in the "real world." -Auto ID Center Executive Breifing,2003
source Helen Duce "Public Policy: Understanding Public Opinion," MIT Auto ID Center

[BigBallinStalin]

The problem is that now every aspect of a persons life can now be monitored 24-7. I don't think anyone wants to be put in a position to be scrutanized every second of their life. That is what a future with no privacy will be like. If a person is born into a life without the option of privacy fair? The market will decide if RFID is good or bad but will people be property educated about the negative effects of RFID?



From the people who brought you RFID Quote: "In yhe case of EPC network there are currently no clear benefits (for consumers) by which to balance even the mildest negative... The lack of clear benefits to consumers could present a problem in the "real world." -Auto ID Center Executive Breifing,2003
source Helen Duce "Public Policy: Understanding Public Opinion," MIT Auto ID Center

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=189202&start=45#p4151422

[warmonger1981]

Specifically??

[Phatscotty]

Creepy?



btw, I came across this in an article about all welfare/food stamp recipients being required to have one of these implanted

http://worldtruth.tv/food-stamp-welfare ... chipped-2/

[2dimes]

Stole from the comic thread.

Click image to enlarge.

[Nordik]

The RFID devices I've seen don't have that kind of range.

They don't have them. Isn't actually physically possible for them to have a range beyond a few metres (yards). This whole thing is scare mongering.

But as to being against chipping people, I thought you supported Obamacare?

I love this latest conspiracy theory. But sadly you're wrong. For several reasons. Firstly that RFID would be used. And secondly that Obamacare would have anything to do with it. Although to be fair, I am completely and utterly against Obamacare purely because I think it is an idiotic half way sell out version of decent universal healthcare. Jut FYI, the Canadians don't do it correctly either.

Why would anyone knowingly purchase a DVD player with a camera that could record their private activities?

Does your laptop (or computer) not have a DVD player and a webcam? Just asking.

RFID technology provides for some interesting stuff! As far as shelving information goes and the tracking of consumer habits, the stores do not tend to track your individual purchasing decisions, and it can never be tracked backed to you (except by camera, which stores will have regardless of RFID tech), so you get lost in the flurry of millions of numbers being sent back to a lab for some guy to crunch and analyze.

The plus side of all of this is that you could walk through a scanner with a cart and it will automatically price everything in your cart. That's pretty awesome.

BMO

Now here is where I start disagreeing with today's way of shopping. It started in N. America, but I am starting to see it here in Europe too.

Screw RFID. You're already doing it to yourselves.

I'll tell you a little story.... I bought a relatively expensive shirt in Vancouver a couple of years ago. As I was paying, I was asked for my phone number and my email address. Obviously since I only had a Norwegian number, I don't count, but I can really see the various companies using this to track your way of shopping. As soon as you tell them these little details and they have your name, they can start tracking you. Especially if you are like me and no longer have a land line and just have a mobile phone.

They did a little test, I believe it was in the UK or I read it on BBC, a few years ago. They checked the mobile phone number of people that were walking past a shop and determined (by name) whether they were male or female. And then the adverts that were showing as you walked past were geared towards the gender that your name made them think you were. Obviously didn't work all the time as some names are used by both genders, but still.

Go back to my little shirt shopping trip in Vancouver and think about exactly what they can do with this information. I didn't fill in a form. I just gave them my number and my email address. I've not seen any spam, but you can bet that they now have me in their system.

RFID aren't an issue purely due to the range. It is all the info that you yourself give to those lovely friendly shop assistants who can then track you via your phone.

Now whether or not you think that is a bad thing is something else. But you can bet that the marketing guys love this.

Now you can cry all you like that the government is tracking you. And it most likely is. But does it not worry you more... much, much more that the companies are? After all, you have a say in your government. You have zero say in the companies, who runs them, what they know and how they use it. You forget to unclick that one little box somewhere that says that they can share with a 3rd party and boom! you're in everyone's systems.

To make you think a little more about this...

When you look for plane tickets on an airline's website, you punch in dates and destinations and so on and you get a price. Did you know that there is just 1 software package that does this? It is called Amadeus. So when you go onto another airline's site to check if they are cheaper, you are using the same software. Now granted, you might still get a cheaper flight with them, but if so... you would have gotten a much cheaper flight if you'd not visiting the original airline's website first. You can circumvent this by various different methods, but realistically you're being tracked from the get go. Isn't that fun?

People can whine all they like about big government and how they are screwing with privacy and so on. And they are. Don't get me wrong. They are. At least in some western countries. But no where near as much as the companies are. And they're the ones that are selling you stuff daily. They're the ones with the power. Heck in some countries (e.g. the UK, Canada and the US) they basically own the government through special interest groups. Oh the fun stories I can tell you about that too.

P.S. I used a spam email address and have changed numbers since (unrelated) when they asked for my details in Vancouver.

P.P.S. I am glad that I live in a country that is actually democratic. We actually have a proper voice. I honestly don't think that any country that has a parliamentary system can say that. They're all stuck with 2-3 parties that no one can dislodge.

[Woodruff]

Why would anyone knowingly purchase a DVD player with a camera that could record their private activities?

Does your laptop (or computer) not have a DVD player and a webcam? Just asking.

In point of fact, your webcam absolutely can be used to view inside of your home without your knowledge or your consent. If it is on, it's potentially "on".

[Nordik]

Ad blockers prevent you from seeing specific images, the data must still be entering your computer in order for the program to recognize it as something you want blocked. Then your computer tells the website you have received it so the site will grant permission to view the rest of the data. Google still records where you went while your magic ad block is in use. The tracking is what makes google so effective. I personally would prefer to avoid it and Facebook but I don't.

I will probably continue to use a cell phone if they track every purchase and how I use products. I have nothing to hide, does not mean I trust or want companies to know about me.

Are you trying to suggest you can put "ad block" on your credit card to prevent the company from seeing what you have actually purchased?

Maybe you could disable the part of a phone that detects RFIDs. Unless they know you are trying to do that and there is a law or other requirement that it is functional in order to use the phone or Internet. At which point they disable the service until you allow the RFID tracking.

Best part of that is it's "voluntary" for you then because you obviously found out they were doing it, since when you blocked the feature your phone stopped working.

If you can put "ad block" on passports you could probably make a lot of money. Fortunately when the customs agent swipes the passport and ad block makes it disappear, instead of thinking. "You're clean, come on into the country, have a nice day."
They're going to say, "We need you to come into the interview room." Or "There's a problem with your passport, you need to get a new one." It won't be a valid passport if it's not showing up in the system. Do you even know what's recorded in the customs system about you?

The EU recently came up with a (frankly annoying) policy that you have to agree to cookies every time you visit a website. I do not see why regulations cannot be made that limit what information you are giving to a company AND to 3rd parties in the same fashion.

Creepy?



btw, I came across this in an article about all welfare/food stamp recipients being required to have one of these implanted

http://worldtruth.tv/food-stamp-welfare ... chipped-2/

Not really. My dog is RFID microchipped. She has a chip in her that says she belongs to me and that this relates to a certain medical record (which is bar coded).

Every time I take her through the airport (~twice a year) it takes the customs agents at least 2 mins to actually get a signal from her chip.

Sure it isn't what I want for myself, but as long as it is limited range I see no issue with it.

[Woodruff]

The EU recently came up with a (frankly annoying) policy that you have to agree to cookies every time you visit a website.

That would be annoying. And doesn't that essentially eliminate much of the use of cookies?

[warmonger1981]

There is now a sprayable paint that can act as an antenna or signal boost for RFID chips. It can be painted on almost everything. That can potentially act as 24-7 tracking.

[Nordik]

In point of fact, your webcam absolutely can be used to view inside of your home without your knowledge or your consent. If it is on, it's potentially "on".

Mine can't. Well not really. And most these days that I've seen are the same. They have a glaring light beside the webcam that turns on when the webcam turns on. It isn't as glaring as a flash, but is still damn obvious. Not just a little LED beside the webcam, this is much brighter.

Granted they can certainly see the back of my couch while I am out if they want to, but if they turned it on when I was napping on the couch I am pretty sure that I would be woken up by it.

I've not seen these on Crapple products yet, but then I wouldn't expect them to give a flying f*ck about anything other than money.

[Nordik]

There is now a sprayable paint that can act as an antenna or signal boost for RFID chips. It can be painted on almost everything. That can potentially act as 24-7 tracking.

So what you're saying is that instead of using simple existing technology to do exactly the same job...............

Please.

[2dimes]

Sure the customs agent has a crappy reader that has a hard time finding the chip floating around in your dogs neck. You could get a decent one installed in a door frame, they are kind of expensive right now but like bar code readers they will come down in price and improve.

When the chips are in your hand it will be easier to find for banking readers. Of course it will be voluntary. Just like any other banking. You don't need to use credit or even cash.

The EU recently came up with a (frankly annoying) policy that you have to agree to cookies every time you visit a website. I do not see why regulations cannot be made that limit what information you are giving to a company AND to 3rd parties in the same fashion.

Because the corporations lobby to change laws while the citizens say, "That's just fear mongering." And eat cheeseburgers. Mmmmmmmm, burgers.

Not sure how my laptop webcam turned on but I couldn't turn it off. I covered it with paper until I figured it out.

[warmonger1981]

The purpose of the paint/chemical was to spray literally everything on earth and take inventory of all things. Turning this planet and everything in it into one big database to keep track of everything. Was not first designed to track people. Yes there are way more convenient ways to track nowadays. Credit card/ social security #/ cell phone/ car/ GPS/ finger print/ face recognition/ passport has RFID/ simple ID card

[BigBallinStalin]

The RFID devices I've seen don't have that kind of range.

They don't have them. Isn't actually physically possible for them to have a range beyond a few metres (yards). This whole thing is scare mongering.

But as to being against chipping people, I thought you supported Obamacare?

I love this latest conspiracy theory. But sadly you're wrong. For several reasons. Firstly that RFID would be used. And secondly that Obamacare would have anything to do with it. Although to be fair, I am completely and utterly against Obamacare purely because I think it is an idiotic half way sell out version of decent universal healthcare. Jut FYI, the Canadians don't do it correctly either.

Why would anyone knowingly purchase a DVD player with a camera that could record their private activities?

Does your laptop (or computer) not have a DVD player and a webcam? Just asking.

I do. So far, no nefarious company has logged on and found me masturbating to porn. OH BOOGA BOOGA BOOGA!.

On a more serious note, have there been any companies which have logged onto people's laptops and recorded their activities *(no government pressure involved)?

RFID technology provides for some interesting stuff! As far as shelving information goes and the tracking of consumer habits, the stores do not tend to track your individual purchasing decisions, and it can never be tracked backed to you (except by camera, which stores will have regardless of RFID tech), so you get lost in the flurry of millions of numbers being sent back to a lab for some guy to crunch and analyze.

The plus side of all of this is that you could walk through a scanner with a cart and it will automatically price everything in your cart. That's pretty awesome.

BMO

Now here is where I start disagreeing with today's way of shopping. It started in N. America, but I am starting to see it here in Europe too.

Screw RFID. You're already doing it to yourselves.

I'll tell you a little story.... I bought a relatively expensive shirt in Vancouver a couple of years ago. As I was paying, I was asked for my phone number and my email address. Obviously since I only had a Norwegian number, I don't count, but I can really see the various companies using this to track your way of shopping. As soon as you tell them these little details and they have your name, they can start tracking you. Especially if you are like me and no longer have a land line and just have a mobile phone.

They did a little test, I believe it was in the UK or I read it on BBC, a few years ago. They checked the mobile phone number of people that were walking past a shop and determined (by name) whether they were male or female. And then the adverts that were showing as you walked past were geared towards the gender that your name made them think you were. Obviously didn't work all the time as some names are used by both genders, but still.

Go back to my little shirt shopping trip in Vancouver and think about exactly what they can do with this information. I didn't fill in a form. I just gave them my number and my email address. I've not seen any spam, but you can bet that they now have me in their system.

RFID aren't an issue purely due to the range. It is all the info that you yourself give to those lovely friendly shop assistants who can then track you via your phone.

Now whether or not you think that is a bad thing is something else. But you can bet that the marketing guys love this.

Now you can cry all you like that the government is tracking you. And it most likely is. But does it not worry you more... much, much more that the companies are? After all, you have a say in your government. You have zero say in the companies, who runs them, what they know and how they use it. You forget to unclick that one little box somewhere that says that they can share with a 3rd party and boom! you're in everyone's systems.

To make you think a little more about this...

When you look for plane tickets on an airline's website, you punch in dates and destinations and so on and you get a price. Did you know that there is just 1 software package that does this? It is called Amadeus. So when you go onto another airline's site to check if they are cheaper, you are using the same software. Now granted, you might still get a cheaper flight with them, but if so... you would have gotten a much cheaper flight if you'd not visiting the original airline's website first. You can circumvent this by various different methods, but realistically you're being tracked from the get go. Isn't that fun?

People can whine all they like about big government and how they are screwing with privacy and so on. And they are. Don't get me wrong. They are. At least in some western countries. But no where near as much as the companies are. And they're the ones that are selling you stuff daily. They're the ones with the power. Heck in some countries (e.g. the UK, Canada and the US) they basically own the government through special interest groups. Oh the fun stories I can tell you about that too.

P.S. I used a spam email address and have changed numbers since (unrelated) when they asked for my details in Vancouver.

P.P.S. I am glad that I live in a country that is actually democratic. We actually have a proper voice. I honestly don't think that any country that has a parliamentary system can say that. They're all stuck with 2-3 parties that no one can dislodge.

And once again, so what? I imagine most people already know that if they give out their information, then the company uses that to track their purchases and/or send them crap. Most people don't care because a company isn't going to force you to do X or force you to pay for Y--unlike the government, and that is the main distinction which underlies people's different concerns regarding either type of organization.

So, I don't find your comparison between government and business to be complete. It's lacking that monopoly on the use of force bit, imperviousness (*coined just now) to transparency/accountability, and ability to change after being punished.

[warmonger1981]

I don't think the problem is so much with corporations, even though they play a part, as it is with all the info collected can be used against ones self if a government got out of control. Mao or Hitler or Stalin or Lenon to be examples.

[Nordik]

That would be annoying. And doesn't that essentially eliminate much of the use of cookies?

No. All they have to do is make a little pop up saying, "This site uses cookies which can be used"..... blah blah blah.... "Do you agree to them using cookies?"

And you click yes. Or check the box and click yes. And go on your merry way.

Sure the customs agent has a crappy reader that has a hard time finding the chip floating around in your dogs neck. You could get a decent one installed in a door frame, they are kind of expensive right now but like bar code readers they will come down in price and improve.

When the chips are in your hand it will be easier to find for banking readers. Of course it will be voluntary. Just like any other banking. You don't need to use credit or even cash.

It is quite amazing that all the customs agents in the errrr 8 different countries that my dog has been in all have crappy detectors. But you're right. They will get better.

Doesn't mean that the range of RFID chips will. It is still physically impossible. Purely because of the type of electromagnetic waves that they are.

Because the corporations lobby to change laws while the citizens say, "That's just fear mongering." And eat cheeseburgers. Mmmmmmmm, burgers.

Not sure how my laptop webcam turned on but I couldn't turn it off. I covered it with paper until I figured it out.

Your point being what? I don't see it personally. That people are stupid? That corporations own the government?

If so, I agree with both. People are stupid and corporations do own parliamentary style governments. This isn't news. At least to me.

The major point though that you're missing is that it is the companies that are the evil doers. You *still* have the power to vote out the crappy politicians.

On a more serious note, have there been any companies which have logged onto people's laptops and recorded their activities *(no government pressure involved)?

I'm guessing you missed the bit about Google maps vans going around and hacking into people's wireless networks? They did apologise though. Good for them! They did no evil! :rolleyes:

And once again, so what? I imagine most people already know that if they give out their information, then the company uses that to track their purchases and/or send them crap. Most people don't care because a company isn't going to force you to do X or force you to pay for Y--unlike the government, and that is the main distinction which underlies people's different concerns regarding either type of organization.

Except for the fact that businesses today... at least the ones with the money to implement these types of systems are "too big to fail" (to coin a British phrase) and hence receive bail outs if they start getting a little tight for money.

Not only this, but between them and their "competitors" they're fixing prices (or at least sharing price schemes so they can all get rich) there isn't a lot of difference. Look at any large bank today for evidence. Or the price of a Coke and a Pepsi. You see any difference? I don't. They're EXACTLY the same. They offer the same shit. Within pennies of each other if there does happen to be a difference.

So, I don't find your comparison between government and business to be complete. It's lacking that monopoly on the use of force bit, imperviousness (*coined just now) to transparency/accountability, and ability to change after being punished.

You do realise that all your food is controlled by a few companies right? All with the same shareholders. They can stick you in jail, but there they have to feed you.

If they don't stick you in jail, they can merely starve you to death. If they felt like it. But they're happy keeping you where you are. Just look around you. Look at who owns what. Competing brands are a fallacy at best today. At least at the large scale.

[Woodruff]

In point of fact, your webcam absolutely can be used to view inside of your home without your knowledge or your consent. If it is on, it's potentially "on".

Mine can't. Well not really. And most these days that I've seen are the same. They have a glaring light beside the webcam that turns on when the webcam turns on. It isn't as glaring as a flash, but is still damn obvious. Not just a little LED beside the webcam, this is much brighter.

That is actually not correct. The LED will not display if the webcam is properly accessed. What tells the LED to light up? Software does.

[warmonger1981]

Last paragraph in Nordic post says it all. Not much of a difference. Sure 5 different names all owned by 1 company or person.

[2dimes]

The government won't mix me and BBS up once we're RFID chipped. Or will they?

[Nordik]

In point of fact, your webcam absolutely can be used to view inside of your home without your knowledge or your consent. If it is on, it's potentially "on".

Mine can't. Well not really. And most these days that I've seen are the same. They have a glaring light beside the webcam that turns on when the webcam turns on. It isn't as glaring as a flash, but is still damn obvious. Not just a little LED beside the webcam, this is much brighter.

That is actually not correct. The LED will not display if the webcam is improperly accessed. What tells the LED to light up? Software does.

^Fixed

Last paragraph in Nordic post says it all. Not much of a difference. Sure 5 different names all owned by 1 company or person.

Scary isn't it?

And yet when countries complain about it....... what do we do?

Sanctions, embargoes, war, etc.

I do not blame the people that complain about "big government" to be honest. They're wrong, but they're at least understanding that there is a problem.

Much the same with the people that marched for the 99%. They're exactly the same thing. Except from basically the opposite angle.

We, the western people, need governments to listen more to our people and less to lobbyists and special interest groups.

It is that simple.

But it won't happen in a government that is parliamentary. Such as the US, UK, Australia, Canada, etc, etc.

It cannot. That simple. The whole "bipartisan" idea is hilarious in my eyes. Even tripartisan is.

You need to let the people speak. And in a parliamentary system that isn't possible. Which can be easily seen by the fact that people do not bother voting. They have lost faith.

I was chatting to a friend of mine from TN. She was telling me that she hasn't voted for 15 years. Do I blame her? No. She's relatively left wing. TN will never go left. Her vote is basically wasted. Why bother?

The US is suffering badly from voter apathy. But what amazes me is that people still give a shit. In the system such as it is, I actually think that anything over 20% is a good showing. Change this to proportional representation and I think you'll get... well... I wouldn't like to speculate on numbers, but a hell of a lot more. Double would be my guess.

Anyway... back to RFID being good or bad.... good all the way. They don't have the range to do anything bad.

[BigBallinStalin]

That would be annoying. And doesn't that essentially eliminate much of the use of cookies?

No. All they have to do is make a little pop up saying, "This site uses cookies which can be used"..... blah blah blah.... "Do you agree to them using cookies?"

And you click yes. Or check the box and click yes. And go on your merry way.

Sure the customs agent has a crappy reader that has a hard time finding the chip floating around in your dogs neck. You could get a decent one installed in a door frame, they are kind of expensive right now but like bar code readers they will come down in price and improve.

When the chips are in your hand it will be easier to find for banking readers. Of course it will be voluntary. Just like any other banking. You don't need to use credit or even cash.

It is quite amazing that all the customs agents in the errrr 8 different countries that my dog has been in all have crappy detectors. But you're right. They will get better.

Doesn't mean that the range of RFID chips will. It is still physically impossible. Purely because of the type of electromagnetic waves that they are.

Because the corporations lobby to change laws while the citizens say, "That's just fear mongering." And eat cheeseburgers. Mmmmmmmm, burgers.

Not sure how my laptop webcam turned on but I couldn't turn it off. I covered it with paper until I figured it out.

Your point being what? I don't see it personally. That people are stupid? That corporations own the government?

If so, I agree with both. People are stupid and corporations do own parliamentary style governments. This isn't news. At least to me.

The major point though that you're missing is that it is the companies that are the evil doers. You *still* have the power to vote out the crappy politicians.

On a more serious note, have there been any companies which have logged onto people's laptops and recorded their activities *(no government pressure involved)?

I'm guessing you missed the bit about Google maps vans going around and hacking into people's wireless networks? They did apologise though. Good for them! They did no evil! :rolleyes:

Well, that's terrible, and there's a difference between Google Inc. ordering the vans to do that and a few yahoos hired by Googling doing shit they're not supposed to. The source may say otherwise, but this is going off-topic.

It's not video cameras, which was the subject, and we can ignore the main part about the body of your message, right? The part where we ask, "so what?" And the difference between that "monopoly on the 'legitimate' use of force" versus "voluntarily collecting data to sell you stuff which you can reject."

[Woodruff]

In point of fact, your webcam absolutely can be used to view inside of your home without your knowledge or your consent. If it is on, it's potentially "on".

Mine can't. Well not really. And most these days that I've seen are the same. They have a glaring light beside the webcam that turns on when the webcam turns on. It isn't as glaring as a flash, but is still damn obvious. Not just a little LED beside the webcam, this is much brighter.

That is actually not correct. The LED will not display if the webcam is improperly accessed. What tells the LED to light up? Software does.

^Fixed

That "fix" is not accurate.

[warmonger1981]

I thought this thread should be bumped to accommodate the IPHONE thread on privacy. We have NO PRIVACY!