Night Strike wrote:You're probably right, but that's because the money is being submitted directly from a business that has a set jurisdiction. Under this new law, states would be pulling in money from all over the country and would then distribute it based on the customer, not the merchant. That means they have to account for the internet purchases of all their residents rather than a business simply calculating their sales at their specific business and then submitting the associated taxes with it.
For online businesses that handle their bookkeeping using paper ledger books and tape-roll calculators I agree that this will put a strain on their operations.
Small businesses were excepted.
No they aren't. Only business that sell less than $1 million online are exempt.
I think we are in disagreement about what constitutes a small business.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
Ironically (to Night Strike mostly), this supposedly levels the playing field for small businesses. If a mom-and-pop book store is required to collect sales tax, how can it compete with Amazon, which does not have to charge sales tax?
The problem with this thinking is that (1) the mom-and-pop book store is not paying sales tax, it's collecting sales tax, so there should be no great burdern and (2) the purchaser, if he or she does not pay sales tax, should be remitting use tax to the state anyway. The issue that states struggle with is that they have no desire to audit someone like Night Strike to get $5,000 of unpaid use tax when they can audit Amazon, make a completely unconstitutional argument that Amazon should be collecting sales tax in the state, and then make a deal with Amazon.
Essentially, this law is about getting online retailers to collect sales tax (unconstitutionally) so that the states don't have to audit individual taxpayers or try to (unconstitutionally) get the online retailers to collect sales tax on their own.
Symmetry wrote:I think we are in disagreement about what constitutes a small business.
Which is why you're okay with raising income taxes on "the rich", so I'm not surprised.
thegreekdog wrote:States are not pulling in money from all over the country. This is not difficult to understand. Instead of thinking about "oh, oh, the internet, whatever shall we do?" just think of it as "Hey, I'm Night Strike. I'm travelling to Philadelphia to see a Cardinals game. I think I'll purchase a book at the local book distributor. Here book distributor, here is $10 plus 80 cents of sales tax pursuant to the 8% Philadelphia sales tax rate. Now you be a good tax collector and send that 80 cents to the Commonwealth Department of Revenue who will then give 10 cents to Philadelphia. Thanks." Now instead of a brick and mortar store, you're talking Amazon. Insert "Amazon" for "local book distributor" and you have your answer.
Right, if I go TO Philadelphia and buy a product from a local business, that business is actually benefiting from the sales taxes collected, which is why they have to collect it. However, if that local business sells their books online and I buy it from Missouri, why should the Philadelphia business be responsible for collecting Missouri sales taxes? Missouri sales taxes are not used to provide local infrastructure to the business, so why is the business burdened with Missouri laws?
IF you truly want there to be a fair and even playing field, then every business should be collecting the taxes from the location where their buyer lives rather than where the business exists. That means that whether I shop online or in the actual book store in Philadelphia, I should be paying the sales taxes based on my home address. THIS is the system that is imposed on online purchases, which is not the same as what brick and mortar businesses currently collect and pay.
TGD, I feel I am learning too much about Sales Tax from your posts. Please insert more comic paraphernalia to lessen this impact.
Example, using a Sphinx to demonstrate a riddle:
thegreekdog wrote:The hardest part about this law (and the thing that states and taxpayers struggle with now) is how to determine the location of the customer. If I'm a New Jersey resident that travels to Maryland and purchases itune songs in Maryland and uses those itunes in New Jersey and Pennsylvania... who gets the tax?
Symmetry wrote:I think we are in disagreement about what constitutes a small business.
Which is why you're okay with raising income taxes on "the rich", so I'm not surprised.
thegreekdog wrote:States are not pulling in money from all over the country. This is not difficult to understand. Instead of thinking about "oh, oh, the internet, whatever shall we do?" just think of it as "Hey, I'm Night Strike. I'm travelling to Philadelphia to see a Cardinals game. I think I'll purchase a book at the local book distributor. Here book distributor, here is $10 plus 80 cents of sales tax pursuant to the 8% Philadelphia sales tax rate. Now you be a good tax collector and send that 80 cents to the Commonwealth Department of Revenue who will then give 10 cents to Philadelphia. Thanks." Now instead of a brick and mortar store, you're talking Amazon. Insert "Amazon" for "local book distributor" and you have your answer.
Right, if I go TO Philadelphia and buy a product from a local business, that business is actually benefiting from the sales taxes collected, which is why they have to collect it. However, if that local business sells their books online and I buy it from Missouri, why should the Philadelphia business be responsible for collecting Missouri sales taxes? Missouri sales taxes are not used to provide local infrastructure to the business, so why is the business burdened with Missouri laws?
Because the purchaser is in Missouri. It seems like you're arguing against sales tax generally (which I agree with) or about the constitutionality of taxing a company without a substantial physical contact with the taxing state (which I agree with). But you're going about it the wrong way. You, the purchaser, is either supposed to remit use tax (which no one really does) or, if the company selling you the product has nexus in the state (which Amazon doesn't) it is supposed to collect sales tax from you.
The "business benefitting" while part of the due process clause analysis of state taxes, is rarely considered simply because Amazon is benefitting from YOU being in the Missouri marketplace buying their products and, more importantly, because YOU are the one paying the tax, not the Philadelphia bookstore.
Night Strike wrote:IF you truly want there to be a fair and even playing field, then every business should be collecting the taxes from the location where their buyer lives rather than where the business exists. That means that whether I shop online or in the actual book store in Philadelphia, I should be paying the sales taxes based on my home address. THIS is the system that is imposed on online purchases, which is not the same as what brick and mortar businesses currently collect and pay.
No, if you purchase the book in Philadelphia you pay Philadelphia sales tax because that's where the book is delivered to you. Perhaps you would also be subject to use tax on the purchase when you go back to Missouri, but that's rarely enforced. If you purchase the book in Missouri from a bookstore in Philadelphia, the bookstore in Philadelphia would collect tax from you if that bookstore had nexus in Missouri (which it probably wouldn't).
And that's why the law is unconstitutional. There is no basis in constitutional law to impose a collection responsibility on a company that doesn't have nexus in a state.
Timminz wrote:When I voted on this thread, I thought we were discussing a proposed tax on all internet sales. I am against that idea.
Now I can see that this is actually just a proposal for collecting already-established sales taxes. I support that idea, and have changed my vote.
Hmm... I guess I should explain my "no" vote. I voted no for two reasons - (1) the law is unconstitutional and (2) I'm against most taxes, whether the tax is already established or not and have a major issue with sales taxes.
It doesn't really matter where the taxes come from to people who are for limited government.
I have always said don't give this government another dime until they get their act together, and the government will continue to waste money until the people collectively decide to starve the beast.
My vote stays for the internet to be as free and unregulated as possible.
Phatscotty wrote:It doesn't really matter where the taxes come from to people who are for limited government.
I have always said don't give this government another dime until they get their act together, and the government will continue to waste money until the people collectively decide to starve the beast.
My vote stays for the internet to be as free and unregulated as possible.
What does a free and unregulated internet have to do with the internet sales tax?
Phatscotty wrote:It doesn't really matter where the taxes come from to people who are for limited government.
I have always said don't give this government another dime until they get their act together, and the government will continue to waste money until the people collectively decide to starve the beast.
My vote stays for the internet to be as free and unregulated as possible.
What does a free and unregulated internet have to do with the internet sales tax?
is tax a regulation in the sense the companies are going to need to hire more employees and buy new hardware/software to comply with the new law?
What I'm saying is a tax collected over the internet is a more regulated internet than one that is tax free.
Timminz wrote:When I voted on this thread, I thought we were discussing a proposed tax on all internet sales. I am against that idea.
Now I can see that this is actually just a proposal for collecting already-established sales taxes. I support that idea, and have changed my vote.
What? Why?
The purpose of a sales tax is to allegedly pay for government-controlled and/or owned enterprises (e.g. streets). The internet doesn't have streets, the transaction costs are gladly undertaken by various financial intermediaries, and it's not like the businesses which make the deliveries do not pay their taxes for using the government-owned streets.
It's an unnecessary tax whose main purpose is to restrict competition, thereby enriching the embedded businesses.
Phatscotty wrote:It doesn't really matter where the taxes come from to people who are for limited government.
I have always said don't give this government another dime until they get their act together, and the government will continue to waste money until the people collectively decide to starve the beast.
My vote stays for the internet to be as free and unregulated as possible.
What does a free and unregulated internet have to do with the internet sales tax?
is tax a regulation in the sense the companies are going to need to hire more employees and buy new hardware/software to comply with the new law?
What I'm saying is a tax collected over the internet is a more regulated internet than one that is tax free.
Like Timminz indicated, this is not a new tax. Additionally, although you've apparently heard information to the contrary, internet companies already have "more employees" and hardware and software to comply with the new law (which is why they really didn't oppose the law). So, not really regulating the internet (or not in the context that the phrase is normally used).
Timminz wrote:When I voted on this thread, I thought we were discussing a proposed tax on all internet sales. I am against that idea.
Now I can see that this is actually just a proposal for collecting already-established sales taxes. I support that idea, and have changed my vote.
How does it work in Canada? If someone in Alberta ordered something from Manitoba, does the Manitoba company collect Alberta tax?
From what I understand, that is what is done. Some provinces have only GST, which is a sales tax that applies to most goods sold. Thus the Manitoba company collects GST from Alberta (http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/bsnss/tpcs/ ... s-eng.html). Some other provinces also have HST in addition to GST, which is a compound tax essentially. This is all given to government, and they divvy it back out appropriately I think.
But then again, I hate taxes and know little about them.
Personally, it just makes sense to me to charge sales tax on internet sales. Why should the internet be able to avoid that sort of thing these days? To not charge them sales tax is essentially a harm against brick-and-mortar stores, as people will go to the places that charge less (including sales tax).
...I prefer a man who will burn the flag and then wrap himself in the Constitution to a man who will burn the Constitution and then wrap himself in the flag.
Woodruff wrote:Personally, it just makes sense to me to charge sales tax on internet sales. Why should the internet be able to avoid that sort of thing these days? To not charge them sales tax is essentially a harm against brick-and-mortar stores, as people will go to the places that charge less (including sales tax).
Because the internet business may not have a footprint in that location, so it's not using local resources.
Woodruff wrote:Personally, it just makes sense to me to charge sales tax on internet sales. Why should the internet be able to avoid that sort of thing these days? To not charge them sales tax is essentially a harm against brick-and-mortar stores, as people will go to the places that charge less (including sales tax).
Because the internet business may not have a footprint in that location, so it's not using local resources.
Woodruff wrote:Personally, it just makes sense to me to charge sales tax on internet sales. Why should the internet be able to avoid that sort of thing these days? To not charge them sales tax is essentially a harm against brick-and-mortar stores, as people will go to the places that charge less (including sales tax).
Because the internet business may not have a footprint in that location, so it's not using local resources.
You mean, like the roads used for delivery?
Some internet business could offer purely digital goods. But then I suppose they are using local infrastructure to transfer digital goods too perhaps?
Woodruff wrote:Personally, it just makes sense to me to charge sales tax on internet sales. Why should the internet be able to avoid that sort of thing these days? To not charge them sales tax is essentially a harm against brick-and-mortar stores, as people will go to the places that charge less (including sales tax).
Because the internet business may not have a footprint in that location, so it's not using local resources.
Woodruff wrote:Personally, it just makes sense to me to charge sales tax on internet sales. Why should the internet be able to avoid that sort of thing these days? To not charge them sales tax is essentially a harm against brick-and-mortar stores, as people will go to the places that charge less (including sales tax).
Because the internet business may not have a footprint in that location, so it's not using local resources.
The internet business isn't paying the freaking tax! It's collecting it from someone who uses local resources.
And then you're going to say "yeah, but now they need to know the sales tax rate in Bumfuck, Nebraska." That is an minute cost for internet companies, if any cost at all given that most of them already have sales tax software.
Woodruff wrote:Personally, it just makes sense to me to charge sales tax on internet sales. Why should the internet be able to avoid that sort of thing these days? To not charge them sales tax is essentially a harm against brick-and-mortar stores, as people will go to the places that charge less (including sales tax).
Because the internet business may not have a footprint in that location, so it's not using local resources.
The internet business isn't paying the freaking tax! It's collecting it from someone who uses local resources.
And then you're going to say "yeah, but now they need to know the sales tax rate in Bumfuck, Nebraska." That is an minute cost for internet companies, if any cost at all given that most of them already have sales tax software.
More businesses sell online than Amazon and other big companies.
