School Uniforms

[Serbia]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

if muslims come to France they should expect French social standards

'cept that customs change over time, especially with the influx of immigrant cultures. Same with language, beliefs, etc.

-TG

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

So France should just become a Muslim country then, because at one point they colonized Muslim countries. Gotcha.

Bollocks.

[betiko]

You are mixing up everything. Adapting to incomming cultures is for example to make pork free menus for lunch so that muslims and jews can eat what they are allowed to eat.
The separation of state and church is a pretty important thing in french society. A president saying "god bless france" would be a huge scandal. This is just how our institutions are, so if you are french and muslim you are supposed to be french before muslim. Laws here are french laws, or should we now adapt our laws to charia laws? Like you are not allowed to sacrifice a lamb in your bathtub as it's seen as animal crualty. Being a citizen is just like being the tenant of an apartment. No smoking and no pets? well, if you don't like it take another apartment, you know from the start the rules. You know that if you smoke you'll get in trouble with the landlord.

Why is it OK to say restaurants should serve pork free menus and that animal sacrafice is wrong, but not OK to say that girls cannot be hidden behind burkas?

Oh, and per the "animal sacrifice is torture" bit... you are misinformed. It is no more tortuous in most cases to kill an animal in sacrifice than to kill it for food. In fact, most religions are pretty specific about not causing pain. Such rules are really among the worst of back-handed discrimination moves, based on complete ignorance and the demand that others follow the mores of a few without those few bothering to investigate if their claims (such as of cruelty) are really true.

Pretty sure people aren't allowed to sacrifice animals in their appartments in the US too. Talking about ignorance: head scarf for all muslim woman isn't anywhere in the coran, not eating pork is.
Take Turkey for example because it's the best example there is to compare with france. This country was founded by Ataturk, and like france was based on laicity. It is nevertheless a country with a majority of muslims, and you were not allowed to wear head scarves in universities ect. Now muslim integrists are taking over the country and they removed this law but it is very recent.

[saxitoxin]

IIRC during the Revolution of 1789, Notre Dame Cathedral was turned into an atheist temple by the New State. Deletion of religious symbols has a long history in France that has been equally applied to all religions, so a headscarf ban cannot be discriminatory.

A headscarf ban in the UK or US or Italy would be discriminatory since there is a history of state permissiveness toward religious symbols.

[Symmetry]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

if muslims come to France they should expect French social standards

'cept that customs change over time, especially with the influx of immigrant cultures. Same with language, beliefs, etc.

-TG

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

So France should just become a Muslim country then, because at one point they colonized Muslim countries. Gotcha.

Bollocks.

I have no idea where you got that from. Was it a knee-jerk reaction, or did actual thought go into that response? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Serbia]

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

So France should just become a Muslim country then, because at one point they colonized Muslim countries. Gotcha.

Bollocks.

I have no idea where you got that from. Was it a knee-jerk reaction, or did actual thought go into that response? Inquiring minds want to know.

As much thought as you put into any of your patented straw-men.

Bollocks.

[Symmetry]

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

So France should just become a Muslim country then, because at one point they colonized Muslim countries. Gotcha.

Bollocks.

I have no idea where you got that from. Was it a knee-jerk reaction, or did actual thought go into that response? Inquiring minds want to know.

As much thought as you put into any of your patented straw-men.

Bollocks.

Nope, you're not making any sense at all. I have to ask though, and this will affect my further replies to you- have you been drinking / taking recreational drugs while posting?

[waauw]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

if muslims come to France they should expect French social standards

'cept that customs change over time, especially with the influx of immigrant cultures. Same with language, beliefs, etc.

-TG

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

Actually most muslims moved to europe after the second world war because of different reasons than imperialism. Europe had a shortage of men because of the war and needed people to work in the coal mines. That is where the muslims came in. They migrated to europe to get those jobs and earn more than they could in their own country.

Now this was fine, however even in the aftermath of this muslims kept migrating to europe. This is actually quite similar to the situation between the US and Mexico. The problem with this is the more of them come here, the more it'll resemble like an islam colonization of the european continent, especially as muslims keep making babies like rabbits on viagra.

[Symmetry]

The problem with this is the more of them come here, the more it'll resemble like an islam colonization of the european continent, especially as muslims keep making babies like rabbits on viagra.

You sound like a crazy person. A crazy person who hates Muslims.

[Serbia]

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

So France should just become a Muslim country then, because at one point they colonized Muslim countries. Gotcha.

Bollocks.

I have no idea where you got that from. Was it a knee-jerk reaction, or did actual thought go into that response? Inquiring minds want to know.

As much thought as you put into any of your patented straw-men.

Bollocks.

Nope, you're not making any sense at all. I have to ask though, and this will affect my further replies to you- have you been drinking / taking recreational drugs while posting?

Nope, but thanks for changing the subject and making this personal. Way to go, Sym!

Bollocks.

[Symmetry]

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

So France should just become a Muslim country then, because at one point they colonized Muslim countries. Gotcha.

Bollocks.

I have no idea where you got that from. Was it a knee-jerk reaction, or did actual thought go into that response? Inquiring minds want to know.

As much thought as you put into any of your patented straw-men.

Bollocks.

Nope, you're not making any sense at all. I have to ask though, and this will affect my further replies to you- have you been drinking / taking recreational drugs while posting?

Nope, but thanks for changing the subject and making this personal. Way to go, Sym!

Bollocks.

I was simply curious. Your posts make little sense, aren't you curious, and by curious I mean interested?

[saxitoxin]

make out, you two

[betiko]

make out, you two

In Japanese schoolgirl uniform

[Symmetry]

Make out, you two.

What if my bollocks aren't everything he hopes for?

[Symmetry]

make out, you two

In Japanese schoolgirl uniform

I would never have suspected that kink for you. Huh.

[Serbia]

make out, you two

You can't make me! I'm not your wench!
(I am your wench...)

Bollocks.

[Symmetry]

make out, you two

You can't make me! I'm not your wench!
(I am your wench...)

Bollocks.

Meh, if you didn't want it you wouldn't dangle your balls at the end of every post.

[Serbia]

make out, you two

You can't make me! I'm not your wench!
(I am your wench...)

Bollocks.

Meh, if you didn't want it you wouldn't dangle your balls at the end of every post.

Bollocks to you sir.

Bollocks.

[Nordik]

I am staunchly pro school uniforms for several reasons:

1. a) It prevents poor kids getting as much flak from richer kids due to what they are wearing - although having worn school uniforms most of the time myself, I know that this just leads to kids giving you crap for wearing the wrong brand of shoes, but it is still less.
1. b) Hence it makes it much easier and cheaper for parents to dress their kids for school.

2. It prepares them for later life. I do not know many workplaces where you do not have some form of uniform, be it a dark suit if you're a banker, a tool belt if you're a carpenter, a boiler suit if you're an engineer (or suit if you work in the office), etc, etc. I do not see why school should be any different. If kids want to be individual, that is all well and good. Let them be so after "work" like the rest of us.

3. It helps prevent minor crimes (bear with me on this one). When I went to secondary school, we used to drink in this pub when we were under aged. The owners wouldn't really care about ID's if we'd flashed one at him (he never checked your age), but if you came into the bar in a school uniform you'd get refused alcohol. Actually the first time I did so was on my 18th birthday and I hadn't brought with me any ID ironically. I also found that it was much harder to buy drugs in uniform since at least some dealers actually have some modicum of morals.

4. It helps promote pride in your school. As much as I hated the uniform and tried to rebel by not tucking in my shirt, buying trousers which were still grey, but not regulation and wearing them, wearing socks which weren't either navy or black, wearing Doc Martens (which were not allowed due to the yellow thread) and so on and so forth, you did get a sense of who you were and what you stood for from the uniform. Whether or not a us vs them spirit is a good idea (there were plenty of fights between rival schools) is kind of beside the point. I don't see it as any different from having uniforms on the football team really.

My 6 pennies.

- E

[waauw]

I am staunchly pro school uniforms for several reasons:

1. a) It prevents poor kids getting as much flak from richer kids due to what they are wearing - although having worn school uniforms most of the time myself, I know that this just leads to kids giving you crap for wearing the wrong brand of shoes, but it is still less.
1. b) Hence it makes it much easier and cheaper for parents to dress their kids for school.

2. It prepares them for later life. I do not know many workplaces where you do not have some form of uniform, be it a dark suit if you're a banker, a tool belt if you're a carpenter, a boiler suit if you're an engineer (or suit if you work in the office), etc, etc. I do not see why school should be any different. If kids want to be individual, that is all well and good. Let them be so after "work" like the rest of us.

3. It helps prevent minor crimes (bear with me on this one). When I went to secondary school, we used to drink in this pub when we were under aged. The owners wouldn't really care about ID's if we'd flashed one at him (he never checked your age), but if you came into the bar in a school uniform you'd get refused alcohol. Actually the first time I did so was on my 18th birthday and I hadn't brought with me any ID ironically. I also found that it was much harder to buy drugs in uniform since at least some dealers actually have some modicum of morals.

4. It helps promote pride in your school. As much as I hated the uniform and tried to rebel by not tucking in my shirt, buying trousers which were still grey, but not regulation and wearing them, wearing socks which weren't either navy or black, wearing Doc Martens (which were not allowed due to the yellow thread) and so on and so forth, you did get a sense of who you were and what you stood for from the uniform. Whether or not a us vs them spirit is a good idea (there were plenty of fights between rival schools) is kind of beside the point. I don't see it as any different from having uniforms on the football team really.

My 6 pennies.

- E

1)kids will always find reasons to bully eachother. Whether or not you have uniforms won't change much I think. Also you could argue that if people are poor, they might have to spend additional money to buy a uniform instead of not having to spend anything and just have their kids wear what they always do.

2)I respect this part. You got a point here, however I don't think it's really necessary to prepare kids for that.

3)Believe me kids will always find a way to get what they want. They can just change clothes, ask someone else to buy it for them or just find a bartender that doesn't care about the law. For example in my country kids can drink beer at the age of 16. However although kids often aren't able to get beer at supermarkets, night convenience stores(or however you call 'm in english) and quite a number of bars don't give a damn. I've seen tons of 12 and 13-year olds drink beer. Although I have to hand it to ya that it would indeed make it harder for kids to get what they shouldn't have, hence preventing some crime(not all).

4)I went to a school without a uniform, yet I had a sense of pride for my school too. I don't think this is at all related to the uniform. People just like to be protective of what they part of.
I even remember we had another school a few kilometers away from our school and there kids did have to wear uniforms. These kids always used to wear blue uniforms. This automatically resulted in the fact that the other schools without a uniform used to make fun of these uniforms by calling them 'smurfs'.

[Nordik]

1)kids will always find reasons to bully each other. Whether or not you have uniforms won't change much I think. Also you could argue that if people are poor, they might have to spend additional money to buy a uniform instead of not having to spend anything and just have their kids wear what they always do.

A) Yes kids always find a reason to bully each other. Why make it easier to find more ways?
B) School uniforms are cheap. Very cheap. You are saving money on clothes purely because you are saving money on other clothes that get less wear and tear.

2)I respect this part. You got a point here, however I don't think it's really necessary to prepare kids for that.

Why not? I know plenty of people that hate the idea of having to wear a suit when going to work. Luckily I live in a country where we don't have to do that, but the majority of the world does.

3)Believe me kids will always find a way to get what they want. They can just change clothes, ask someone else to buy it for them or just find a bartender that doesn't care about the law. For example in my country kids can drink beer at the age of 16. However although kids often aren't able to get beer at supermarkets, night convenience stores(or however you call 'm in english) and quite a number of bars don't give a damn. I've seen tons of 12 and 13-year olds drink beer. Although I have to hand it to ya that it would indeed make it harder for kids to get what they shouldn't have, hence preventing some crime(not all).

Agreed. It will not prevent all crime, but it will prevent some. But isn't that worthwhile? Plus the bartenders that don't care will get busted pretty quickly when the cops figure out where the kids are going.

4)I went to a school without a uniform, yet I had a sense of pride for my school too. I don't think this is at all related to the uniform. People just like to be protective of what they part of.
I even remember we had another school a few kilometers away from our school and there kids did have to wear uniforms. These kids always used to wear blue uniforms. This automatically resulted in the fact that the other schools without a uniform used to make fun of these uniforms by calling them 'smurfs'.

If you support Antwerp (football team for the people that aren't familiar with Belgian teams) you make fun of people that support Anderlecht and have names you call them. You think that makes them more or less proud to be Anderlecht supporters?

Also, I never said it wasn't possible to be proud of your school. I merely said that it promotes a sense of pride. There is a difference. A bit like being proud of your country is almost a given, but some people still like to fly their national flag... daily even.

[waauw]

1)kids will always find reasons to bully each other. Whether or not you have uniforms won't change much I think. Also you could argue that if people are poor, they might have to spend additional money to buy a uniform instead of not having to spend anything and just have their kids wear what they always do.

A) Yes kids always find a reason to bully each other. Why make it easier to find more ways?
B) School uniforms are cheap. Very cheap. You are saving money on clothes purely because you are saving money on other clothes that get less wear and tear.

2)I respect this part. You got a point here, however I don't think it's really necessary to prepare kids for that.

Why not? I know plenty of people that hate the idea of having to wear a suit when going to work. Luckily I live in a country where we don't have to do that, but the majority of the world does.

3)Believe me kids will always find a way to get what they want. They can just change clothes, ask someone else to buy it for them or just find a bartender that doesn't care about the law. For example in my country kids can drink beer at the age of 16. However although kids often aren't able to get beer at supermarkets, night convenience stores(or however you call 'm in english) and quite a number of bars don't give a damn. I've seen tons of 12 and 13-year olds drink beer. Although I have to hand it to ya that it would indeed make it harder for kids to get what they shouldn't have, hence preventing some crime(not all).

Agreed. It will not prevent all crime, but it will prevent some. But isn't that worthwhile? Plus the bartenders that don't care will get busted pretty quickly when the cops figure out where the kids are going.

4)I went to a school without a uniform, yet I had a sense of pride for my school too. I don't think this is at all related to the uniform. People just like to be protective of what they part of.
I even remember we had another school a few kilometers away from our school and there kids did have to wear uniforms. These kids always used to wear blue uniforms. This automatically resulted in the fact that the other schools without a uniform used to make fun of these uniforms by calling them 'smurfs'.

If you support Antwerp (football team for the people that aren't familiar with Belgian teams) you make fun of people that support Anderlecht and have names you call them. You think that makes them more or less proud to be Anderlecht supporters?

Also, I never said it wasn't possible to be proud of your school. I merely said that it promotes a sense of pride. There is a difference. A bit like being proud of your country is almost a given, but some people still like to fly their national flag... daily even.

You got some good points here. However the system as we have it in the west is good as it is now. You might have partially convinced me here

[Nordik]

You got some good points here. However the system as we have it in the west is good as it is now. You might have partially convinced me here

I went to British schools mainly. Since when was Britain not in the west?

Actually, to be perfectly honest, I did go to British schools abroard (in Asia mostly) and spent 3 years at a French school in Hong Kong (although I was taught in English) where I didn't need to wear a school uniform.

But having seen the difference, I am convinced that school uniforms are better. Even if I hated them at the time.

- E

[Woodruff]

1. a) It prevents poor kids getting as much flak from richer kids due to what they are wearing - although having worn school uniforms most of the time myself, I know that this just leads to kids giving you crap for wearing the wrong brand of shoes, but it is still less.

Yes, I agree with this. There's no doubt in my mind that it helps with this.

1. b) Hence it makes it much easier and cheaper for parents to dress their kids for school.

Agreed.

2. It prepares them for later life. I do not know many workplaces where you do not have some form of uniform, be it a dark suit if you're a banker, a tool belt if you're a carpenter, a boiler suit if you're an engineer (or suit if you work in the office), etc, etc. I do not see why school should be any different. If kids want to be individual, that is all well and good. Let them be so after "work" like the rest of us.

This is a reasonable point, but not one that I personally find important, but that's a personal perspective. I tend to think that the teen years are "meant" for having choices and being able to be individuals, and that it's important they be able to do so.

3. It helps prevent minor crimes (bear with me on this one). When I went to secondary school, we used to drink in this pub when we were under aged. The owners wouldn't really care about ID's if we'd flashed one at him (he never checked your age), but if you came into the bar in a school uniform you'd get refused alcohol. Actually the first time I did so was on my 18th birthday and I hadn't brought with me any ID ironically. I also found that it was much harder to buy drugs in uniform since at least some dealers actually have some modicum of morals.

That's an interesting thought, that I hadn't considered previously. But I would tend to think this would be a VERY MINOR application, as it probably has more to do with both the bar owner and the drug dealers being of the mind that the uniform of the "buyer" simply made it more obvious to neutral observers that the "buyer" was underage, thus increasing the possibility that they would be turned in (when otherwise they might be ignored).

4. It helps promote pride in your school. As much as I hated the uniform and tried to rebel by not tucking in my shirt, buying trousers which were still grey, but not regulation and wearing them, wearing socks which weren't either navy or black, wearing Doc Martens (which were not allowed due to the yellow thread) and so on and so forth, you did get a sense of who you were and what you stood for from the uniform. Whether or not a us vs them spirit is a good idea (there were plenty of fights between rival schools) is kind of beside the point. I don't see it as any different from having uniforms on the football team really.

In my experience, a kid will have school pride or not, and what they wear won't really impact that (the yellow thread in the shoes was a problem?!??!!).

[waauw]

You got some good points here. However the system as we have it in the west is good as it is now. You might have partially convinced me here

I went to British schools mainly. Since when was Britain not in the west?

Actually, to be perfectly honest, I did go to British schools abroard (in Asia mostly) and spent 3 years at a French school in Hong Kong (although I was taught in English) where I didn't need to wear a school uniform.

But having seen the difference, I am convinced that school uniforms are better. Even if I hated them at the time.

- E

weird, I tried changing my sentences and somehow they got mixed :/
What I meant was:
1. I like the current system where people can choose whether or not their children go to schools with uniforms..
2. you somewhat convinced me although the rebel in me still dismisses uniforms

[Nordik]

That's an interesting thought, that I hadn't considered previously. But I would tend to think this would be a VERY MINOR application, as it probably has more to do with both the bar owner and the drug dealers being of the mind that the uniform of the "buyer" simply made it more obvious to neutral observers that the "buyer" was underage, thus increasing the possibility that they would be turned in (when otherwise they might be ignored).

It merely makes it easier to see that the person is underaged. Having worked in my share of bars and nightclubs that have been frequented by 18 year olds, I know how difficult it can be.

(the yellow thread in the shoes was a problem?!??!!).

They were twats at that particular school. What can I say? Most places I've been to aren't quite that bad.

weird, I tried changing my sentences and somehow they got mixed :/

No worries. I got what you meant. Hence the

What I meant was:
1. I like the current system where people can choose whether or not their children go to schools with uniforms..
2. you somewhat convinced me although the rebel in me still dismisses uniforms

1. I don't think people actually have a choice. I mean if you have to either pay for the school or send your kids to a religious school to have uniforms (or to not have uniforms in countries where they are normal in government schools) then either you're out of pocket or you're warping your kids' minds with religious nonsense - the atheist in me would really NOT like having to do that.

2. Trust me, I was a nutty kid and hated it. It is only in hindsight that I see the value.