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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Phatscotty on Mon May 20, 2013 8:19 pm

Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Question for ya: Is it possible that people can do things and there isn't any proof? Does that mean they didn't do it?


Question for ya: Is it possible that if there isn't any proof, then nobody did those things?


AMERICA: Where everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Unless they are Obama.


Typical


And typical of you, you ignored my question back to you.

Phatscotty wrote:I knew you would jump to that conclusion. I ask him that because he has been clinging to the fact that as of today, there is no direct proof. I want him to admit or deny that it's possible somebody still did something, even if there is no direct proof.


What is to admit? Anyone with a half a brain knows it's possible. Just as anyone with half a brain knows that it is better to presume innocent without significant evidence to the contrary.




So you admit that even though there is no direct proof as of today that Obama knew about it/ordered it, it's still possible he did order it/know about it. Thank you very much Woodruff.

Question #2: Does Obama love the Tea Party? Or does Obama hate the Tea Party?
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Woodruff on Mon May 20, 2013 8:55 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:
Woodruff wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Question for ya: Is it possible that people can do things and there isn't any proof? Does that mean they didn't do it?


Question for ya: Is it possible that if there isn't any proof, then nobody did those things?


AMERICA: Where everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Unless they are Obama.


Typical


And typical of you, you ignored my question back to you.

Phatscotty wrote:I knew you would jump to that conclusion. I ask him that because he has been clinging to the fact that as of today, there is no direct proof. I want him to admit or deny that it's possible somebody still did something, even if there is no direct proof.


What is to admit? Anyone with a half a brain knows it's possible. Just as anyone with half a brain knows that it is better to presume innocent without significant evidence to the contrary.


So you admit that even though there is no direct proof as of today that Obama knew about it/ordered it, it's still possible he did order it/know about it. Thank you very much Woodruff.


You realize that means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, right? Right?

Phatscotty wrote:Question #2: Does Obama love the Tea Party? Or does Obama hate the Tea Party?


Question f*ck you: Why are you hiding from my questions while continuing to ask more? I thought you told thegreekdog that you don't hide from questions?

Hey, and aren't I foed for the thirteenth time?
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby ooge on Tue May 21, 2013 3:25 am

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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Night Strike on Tue May 21, 2013 12:22 pm

Why did every other senior staff member of the White House know about the actions of the IRS but the president didn't?
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Metsfanmax on Tue May 21, 2013 1:39 pm

Night Strike wrote:Why did every other senior staff member of the White House know about the actions of the IRS but the president didn't?


Plausible deniability?
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Symmetry on Tue May 21, 2013 1:41 pm

Night Strike wrote:Why did every other senior staff member of the White House know about the actions of the IRS but the president didn't?


[Citation Needed]
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 21, 2013 4:31 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Why did every other senior staff member of the White House know about the actions of the IRS but the president didn't?


Plausible deniability?


Not likely we will find out, but I'm afraid Mets is right. Obama covered his tracks, so he's innocent. Lois Lerner (IRS) is set to plead the Fifth in the investigation, which as we all know is what innocent people do.

On the bright side, the Obama administration has finally found a Constitutional amendment it likes.
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Woodruff on Tue May 21, 2013 4:52 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Why did every other senior staff member of the White House know about the actions of the IRS but the president didn't?


Plausible deniability?


Not likely we will find out, but I'm afraid Mets is right. Obama covered his tracks, so he's innocent. Lois Lerner (IRS) is set to plead the Fifth in the investigation, which as we all know is what innocent people do.

On the bright side, the Obama administration has finally found a Constitutional amendment it likes.


Why are you continuing to hide from questions, Phatscotty? Didn't you claim not to do that?
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 21, 2013 5:11 pm

ooge wrote:


I'm sure people made fun of minorities the same way when they were struggling for civil rights in the 19th and 20th century.

The Tea Party is the new civil rights movement in America. We are the ones being singled out, harassed, have our phones tapped, denied access, and are regularly discriminated against.

We shall overcome
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Woodruff on Tue May 21, 2013 5:20 pm

Phatscotty wrote:The Tea Party is the new civil rights movement in America.


This is a statement steeped in ignorance.

If there is ANY movement that is akin to the civil rights movement of the past, it is the movement for homosexual rights (which actually IS a civil rights movement itself).

Phatscotty wrote:We are the ones being singled out, harassed, have our phones tapped, denied access, and are regularly discriminated against.
We shall overcome


The Tea Party gets discriminated against like the Christians get discriminated against here in the United States. In other words, not really. But keep that persecution complex going, because it's probably all you got!

Now, were you going to answer the questions that have been asked of you, ye who never falters from doing so?
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Night Strike on Tue May 21, 2013 9:54 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Why did every other senior staff member of the White House know about the actions of the IRS but the president didn't?


[Citation Needed]


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/us/politics/white-house-says-obama-was-kept-out-of-loop-on-irs-inquiry.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby ooge on Tue May 21, 2013 9:57 pm

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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Night Strike on Tue May 21, 2013 10:28 pm

Lois Lerner will refuse to answer questions before Congress on Wednesday. I wonder if she allowed the groups she harassed to refuse to answer her intrusive questions.
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Phatscotty on Tue May 21, 2013 11:49 pm

Oh, you KNOW these guys were targeted!

Moore: Oklahoma
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Phatscotty on Wed May 22, 2013 12:32 am

Night Strike wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Why did every other senior staff member of the White House know about the actions of the IRS but the president didn't?


[Citation Needed]




thegreekdog wrote:Seriously guys - this is the Wall Street Journal. Nobunaga didn't pull this from some Glenn Beck website.....


Actually, Glenn Beck is getting a lot of credit from all sides right now for being the first one reporting on the abuses, long before this story "broke".

6 weeks ago
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 22, 2013 1:01 am

Night Strike wrote:Lois Lerner will refuse to answer questions before Congress on Wednesday.


Yeah, I just saw that. Pretty disappointing, though I suppose I can't blame her. This certainly should be reason enough to dismiss her.
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 22, 2013 1:03 am

Phatscotty wrote:Oh, you KNOW these guys were targeted!


Do you actually know that?

Phatscotty wrote:Moore: Oklahoma


I know you want to capitalize on the tornado tragedy Phatscotty, but it's not really relevant where the group is from in the context of the IRS situation.
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby ooge on Wed May 22, 2013 4:58 am

anyone bother to mention yet that the IRS was looking into all 501c4's not just the tea beings.
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Re: IRS - Doesn't Want to Talk About It

Postby Nobunaga on Wed May 22, 2013 6:09 am

Now she doesn't want to talk about it?

IRS official Lois Lerner will invoke her constitutional right to not answer questions on Wednesday at a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing, her lawyer told the panel in a letter


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130522/DA6E7MA81.html
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Re: IRS - Doesn't Want to Talk About It

Postby Night Strike on Wed May 22, 2013 10:36 am

Nobunaga wrote:Now she doesn't want to talk about it?

IRS official Lois Lerner will invoke her constitutional right to not answer questions on Wednesday at a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing, her lawyer told the panel in a letter


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130522/DA6E7MA81.html


I guess all their actions weren't as legal as they keep claiming they were.
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Night Strike on Wed May 22, 2013 10:37 am

ooge wrote:anyone bother to mention yet that the IRS was looking into all 501c4's not just the tea beings.


Why was it only Tea Party groups that had to fill out every extra detail on every member of their group and then wait 18+ months to be approved? That's not the normal approval protocol every group goes through.
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby ooge on Wed May 22, 2013 1:30 pm

Night Strike wrote:
ooge wrote:anyone bother to mention yet that the IRS was looking into all 501c4's not just the tea beings.


Why was it only Tea Party groups that had to fill out every extra detail on every member of their group and then wait 18+ months to be approved? That's not the normal approval protocol every group goes through.


absurd claim not backed by facts. citizens united decision,caused a flood of groups requesting 501c4 status,The IRS was overwhelmed.The break down of the 501's look into were a 3rd conservative groups a third liberal groups and a third nonpartisan.The media is doing the conservatives propaganda for them just as they did in the case of ACORN,ACORN was found to have done nothing wrong and the video used against them was doctored,but by the time this came out it was to late as ACORN went out of business and no longer exists.
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby Nordik on Wed May 22, 2013 2:00 pm

This is all so silly.

http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/tea-pa ... rs-scandal
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/05/1 ... C-4-Status

[quote=]Some of the flagged groups did have their tax-exempt status delayed or did face some additional scrutiny, but not a single group has been denied tax-exempt status.

-Snip-

In fact, the only known 501(c)(4) applicant to recently have its status denied happens to be a progressive group: the Maine chapter of Emerge America, which trains Democratic women to run for office. Although the group did no electoral work, and didn’t participate in independent expenditure campaign activity either, its partisan nature disqualified it from being categorized as working for the “common good.”[/quote]

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.co ... &seid=auto

It’s almost like the IRS audits low-income Americans far more than the wealthy because there are far more low-income Americans to audit, and they are much more likely to receive a refund from the government, and that these low-income Americans are primarily Obama voters. It’s also almost like Peggy Noonan found a couple people who had been audited and concluded, without any evidence whatsoever, that they had been deliberately targeted because of their political views, and that she then dismissed every other possible explanation for the audits.

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http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022854933

Now that you have seen what those words say, let's think about what they do not say. Lerner says that they searched out terms like "Tea Party" and "Patriots", but she never says those are the only terms they searched for. They may have also been searching on terms like "Democratic" and "Progressive", we don't know because the IRS has yet to provide us a complete list of all the search terms that may have been used. Lerner never mentions anything at all about how left-leaning groups may have been handled by the IRS, but she was asked about it by a reporter. Here is what she said...

"I don't have any information on that."


I have very little doubt that after Nixon and GW, no one in their right mind would try the same stupidity again. They know it'll come out. And they know that the American right wing jump on anything like this and latch on like a pitbull snatching a deep fried turkey.

I don't really like Obama personally. I used to, but he really hasn't lived up to expectations (domestic or international) and has basically become GW v2 in my opinion. There are a few bits and bobs that he's done which I agree with, but mostly he's not had the balls to stand up to the filibustering threats and pandered to the Republican party just to manage to get things to run albeit not very smoothly as the sequester proves.

But the idea that he is somehow behind this like some nefarious ghoul is just hilarious. The one thing you cannot say about him is that he's not intelligent and doing anything like this - even with plausible deniability - would be moronic.
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Re: IRS - Doesn't Want to Talk About It

Postby patches70 on Wed May 22, 2013 7:56 pm

Nobunaga wrote:Now she doesn't want to talk about it?

IRS official Lois Lerner will invoke her constitutional right to not answer questions on Wednesday at a House Oversight and Government Reform Committee hearing, her lawyer told the panel in a letter


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20130522/DA6E7MA81.html


She should have listened to her lawyer because she doesn't understand how invoking the 5th amendment works. She inadvertently waived her 5th amendment right with her testimony. She's been recalled to testify and if she refuses she'll be held in contempt and jailed.

Hahahahah!

For those of you who might not understand, when one invokes the 5th amendment, that's it you don't talk. You can't answer some questions and refuse others with the 5th amendment. Just the simple statement that "I've done nothing illegal" effectively nullified her ability to invoke the 5th amendment.
So, if you ever plan on using the 5th amendment in the future remember this. At the first possible moment you invoke it and you don't say a freaking word after. Not even to protest your innocence.



http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/d ... 91755.html


from the article wrote:The California Republican said Lerner’s Fifth Amendment right to avoid self-incrimination was voided when she gave an opening statement this morning denying any wrongdoing and professing pride in her government service.

“When I asked her her questions from the very beginning, I did so so she could assert her rights prior to any statement,” Issa told POLITICO. “She chose not to do so — so she waived.”

She appeared before Issa’s committee this morning under the order of a subpoena and surprised many by reading a strong statement to the panel.

“I have not done anything wrong,” she said. “I have not broken any laws. I have not violated any IRS rules or regulations, and I have not provided false information to this or any other committee.”... the committee may ultimately pursue a contempt charge if Lerner continues to refuse to talk......





“The precedents are clear that this is not something you can turn on and turn off,” he told POLITICO. “She made testimony after she was sworn in, asserted her innocence in a number of areas, even answered questions asserting that a document was true … So she gave partial testimony and then tried to revoke that.”

He said he was not expecting that.

“I understand from her counsel that there was a plan to assert her Fifth Amendment rights,” he continued. “She went ahead and made a statement, so counsel let her effectively under the precedent, waive — so we now have someone who no longer has that ability.”
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Re: Orwellian IRS

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 22, 2013 9:14 pm

kentington wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Some useful information about politics and the IRS:


James Bovard: A Brief History of IRS Political Targeting (5-10 min read)
show


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 30836.html

(No, he's not blaming Obama but is looking forward to the investigation. He's presenting a fascinating history of the IRS and instances where politicians used the IRS to target other politicians, political groups, and individuals.


I read some of that, but it seems consistent with your response; I haven't known you to be a liar, so I will take your word for it.

I can't believe there hasn't been a response to this. Maybe it is too reasonable.
I think it is possible that Obama or someone in his administration had something to do with it, even likely. I wouldn't put it past any politician to try something like that if they think they can get away with it. Only an investigation will tell.


I'm glad you've read it, and I'm not surprised there hasn't been much of a response because most people like Drama and Sensationalism. I could easily lose my typing cred by pandering to that stupidity (I'd make a great politician), but I'd have problems sleeping at night--moral scruples and all that.

I look forward to the investigation, and being outta town, I haven't updated myself sufficiently---BUT I am not at all enthused about an investigation in (1) ending this corruption--which it won't since politicians will stay have the Road open for their abuse---I mean selfless policymaking, and (2) the IRS won't go bankrupt, so they have no need to change.

It's like committing an egregious crime, having someone else pay for it, and then you get to resume whatever you were suppose to be doing. I really don't have much faith in the political process in resolving these kinds of fundamental issues.

EDIT: scrolled through the last 8 pages or so; most likely didn't miss anything important. ?????. PROFIT.
Last edited by BigBallinStalin on Wed May 22, 2013 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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