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Did you wear uniforms in school?

 
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby betiko on Tue May 21, 2013 5:36 pm

Nordik wrote:I am staunchly pro school uniforms for several reasons:

1. a) It prevents poor kids getting as much flak from richer kids due to what they are wearing - although having worn school uniforms most of the time myself, I know that this just leads to kids giving you crap for wearing the wrong brand of shoes, but it is still less.
1. b) Hence it makes it much easier and cheaper for parents to dress their kids for school.

2. It prepares them for later life. I do not know many workplaces where you do not have some form of uniform, be it a dark suit if you're a banker, a tool belt if you're a carpenter, a boiler suit if you're an engineer (or suit if you work in the office), etc, etc. I do not see why school should be any different. If kids want to be individual, that is all well and good. Let them be so after "work" like the rest of us.

3. It helps prevent minor crimes (bear with me on this one). When I went to secondary school, we used to drink in this pub when we were under aged. The owners wouldn't really care about ID's if we'd flashed one at him (he never checked your age), but if you came into the bar in a school uniform you'd get refused alcohol. Actually the first time I did so was on my 18th birthday and I hadn't brought with me any ID ironically. :D I also found that it was much harder to buy drugs in uniform since at least some dealers actually have some modicum of morals.

4. It helps promote pride in your school. As much as I hated the uniform and tried to rebel by not tucking in my shirt, buying trousers which were still grey, but not regulation and wearing them, wearing socks which weren't either navy or black, wearing Doc Martens (which were not allowed due to the yellow thread) and so on and so forth, you did get a sense of who you were and what you stood for from the uniform. Whether or not a us vs them spirit is a good idea (there were plenty of fights between rival schools) is kind of beside the point. I don't see it as any different from having uniforms on the football team really.

My 6 pennies.

- E


well, for your third point, you're admitting that being part of a school with uniform didn't prevent you from wanting to drink under age and to do drugs.
i also kind of remember that when i was a kid the most important apparel where your sneakers. It was also the most expensive thing you'd have on you and they kind of had to last the whole year, and you might only have 2 pairs (we use to grow 1 shoe size each year). I remember that each time a friend/classmate had a new pair it was a big deal. I don't remember anyone making fun of other for having crappy sneakers... but more a "wow" effect when someone had a new cool pair of reebok pump, nike air jordan/air max, puma disk ect ect... Anyway, I kind of remember that the bullying was always about someone's name, someone's face features, someone's hygiene, someone's personality, someone's poor sports skills, someone's slut mother... Those were enough stuff to mock others or to be mocked at. But I don't remember people making fun of other kids during school recess because they looked poor by the way they were dressed, even if it was the case.

I never really had any sort of dress code in my industry (advertising), unless I had to meet more senior clients. I pretty much got to dress the way I wanted all my life, even if you know that some stuff are a bit too much for a work environment.. but same goes for school. And who cares about the pride of your middle school/high school... You only get to care when it comes to college/university in my opinion.

Anyway, as I already said I'm not for or against uniforms, it's more a question of personal choice. I just think that as long as parents/kids get to chose between one or the other it's cool. I don't believe it's going to change anything in a kid's personality though.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby jimboston on Wed May 22, 2013 8:25 am

Woodruff wrote:Ok. I don't see the significant value in it at lower levels of school either, and I would say it's actually a negative in a collegiate atmosphere.



Do you have kids?
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Woodruff on Wed May 22, 2013 11:05 am

jimboston wrote:
Woodruff wrote:Ok. I don't see the significant value in it at lower levels of school either, and I would say it's actually a negative in a collegiate atmosphere.


Do you have kids?


Yes, two. A boy and a girl. Both have graduated (yay!). Why do you think that's relevant?
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 22, 2013 9:48 pm

Symmetry wrote:When I moved from the UK (where school uniforms are compulsory) to a US school (where casual is the norm, with a few restrictions) I found it very cliquey. I'm not sure that the individualism argument really flies, at least in my experience. It seemed to encourage a more overt form of discrimination between students. Say, for example, between the kids who could afford whatever was currently fashionable and the poorer kids.

I support the idea of uniforms in schools. I find it sad that people would think that individuality is reliant on the clothes a person wears in general, but I like it even less as a principle encouraged in kids.


Without uniforms, you saw the cliques. With uniforms, you wouldn't see the cliques--superficially.

So, with a superficial approach, yes, your position makes sense.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 22, 2013 9:51 pm

betiko wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.


Exactly. And here in France Islam is over 20/100 of the population. It has nothing to do with islamophobia, you can t wear a Christian cross, a David star why would we allow head scarves? France, along with Turkey is one of the only countries built on laicity. A headscarf is seen as proselitism in a public school or any government facility. That s how it is and if you re not happy about it send your kids to a private school. Why would radical Islamists have the right to make us change the principles of our republic? Threatening us with terrorist attacks for living by our own laws in our own country? They can suck it up.


Yeah, and when one French guy gives me a bad day, I assume all French people are like that.

(That's your thinking in an analogy. Do you like it?)
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Re: Re:

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed May 22, 2013 9:53 pm

Serbia wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Serbia wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Serbia wrote:
Symmetry wrote:Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.


So France should just become a Muslim country then, because at one point they colonized Muslim countries. Gotcha.

Bollocks.


I have no idea where you got that from. Was it a knee-jerk reaction, or did actual thought go into that response? Inquiring minds want to know.


As much thought as you put into any of your patented straw-men.

Bollocks.


Nope, you're not making any sense at all. I have to ask though, and this will affect my further replies to you- have you been drinking / taking recreational drugs while posting?


Nope, but thanks for changing the subject and making this personal. Way to go, Sym!

Bollocks.


Did Sym break the Voluntary Ad Hom Prohibition (VAHP) Agreement?
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Thu May 23, 2013 1:04 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:When I moved from the UK (where school uniforms are compulsory) to a US school (where casual is the norm, with a few restrictions) I found it very cliquey. I'm not sure that the individualism argument really flies, at least in my experience. It seemed to encourage a more overt form of discrimination between students. Say, for example, between the kids who could afford whatever was currently fashionable and the poorer kids.

I support the idea of uniforms in schools. I find it sad that people would think that individuality is reliant on the clothes a person wears in general, but I like it even less as a principle encouraged in kids.


Without uniforms, you saw the cliques. With uniforms, you wouldn't see the cliques--superficially.

So, with a superficial approach, yes, your position makes sense.


There are cliques with or without uniform. It's simply less of an issue with them.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu May 23, 2013 1:09 pm

How did you determine the relative clique-ness?
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Thu May 23, 2013 1:16 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:How did you determine the relative clique-ness?


Honestly, it's tough to say. The American cliques don't translate exactly. Mostly I just talked to people.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat May 25, 2013 1:15 pm

I had to wear one from grades 1-8. I didn't mind it because it made it easy to get dressed in teh morning, didn't have to ask my Mom if it matched, etc.. Was good too because the richer kids and the poorer kids all looked the same: Dorky.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby tzor on Sun May 26, 2013 5:02 pm

saxitoxin wrote:Did you wear uniforms in school?


When it was required ... yes. I was in public school for grades 3-6 and didn't wear uniforms then, but did for 1-2 and 7-12.

We used to joke because the other "liberal" elementary school allowed the 8th graders to wear whatever color shirts they wanted. Such rebels.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Tue May 28, 2013 11:16 am

Funkyterrance wrote:I had to wear one from grades 1-8. I didn't mind it because it made it easy to get dressed in teh morning, didn't have to ask my Mom if it matched, etc.. Was good too because the richer kids and the poorer kids all looked the same: Dorky.


I had no chance of ever appearing cool when I lived in the states. I didn't like the obvious social divisions that wearing a certain type of clothing enforced though. I think it's kind of a fallacy to think that schoolkids don't have uniforms if they're not mandated by the school.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby thegreekdog on Tue May 28, 2013 12:16 pm

Symmetry wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I had to wear one from grades 1-8. I didn't mind it because it made it easy to get dressed in teh morning, didn't have to ask my Mom if it matched, etc.. Was good too because the richer kids and the poorer kids all looked the same: Dorky.


I had no chance of ever appearing cool when I lived in the states. I didn't like the obvious social divisions that wearing a certain type of clothing enforced though. I think it's kind of a fallacy to think that schoolkids don't have uniforms if they're not mandated by the school.


I agree with your last sentence, but I also think it's a fallacy to think that schoolkids who wear actual uniforms don't develop cliques based on relative wealth, fashion sense, and attractiveness (among other things). There are cool kids and dorky kids and rich kids and poor kids in any school, and they organize into cliques, even if all those kids have to wear a school-provided outfit.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Tue May 28, 2013 12:21 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I had to wear one from grades 1-8. I didn't mind it because it made it easy to get dressed in teh morning, didn't have to ask my Mom if it matched, etc.. Was good too because the richer kids and the poorer kids all looked the same: Dorky.


I had no chance of ever appearing cool when I lived in the states. I didn't like the obvious social divisions that wearing a certain type of clothing enforced though. I think it's kind of a fallacy to think that schoolkids don't have uniforms if they're not mandated by the school.


I agree with your last sentence, but I also think it's a fallacy to think that schoolkids who wear actual uniforms don't develop cliques based on relative wealth, fashion sense, and attractiveness (among other things). There are cool kids and dorky kids and rich kids and poor kids in any school, and they organize into cliques, even if all those kids have to wear a school-provided outfit.


Sure, and while I did acknowledge that earlier, I also think that mandated uniforms make it less of a factor.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby thegreekdog on Tue May 28, 2013 12:44 pm

Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I had to wear one from grades 1-8. I didn't mind it because it made it easy to get dressed in teh morning, didn't have to ask my Mom if it matched, etc.. Was good too because the richer kids and the poorer kids all looked the same: Dorky.


I had no chance of ever appearing cool when I lived in the states. I didn't like the obvious social divisions that wearing a certain type of clothing enforced though. I think it's kind of a fallacy to think that schoolkids don't have uniforms if they're not mandated by the school.


I agree with your last sentence, but I also think it's a fallacy to think that schoolkids who wear actual uniforms don't develop cliques based on relative wealth, fashion sense, and attractiveness (among other things). There are cool kids and dorky kids and rich kids and poor kids in any school, and they organize into cliques, even if all those kids have to wear a school-provided outfit.


Sure, and while I did acknowledge that earlier, I also think that mandated uniforms make it less of a factor.


Mandated uniforms make what less of a factor? Perhaps the cliquey-ness occurs less quickly in a mandated uniform school, but it still happens. If our purpose is to make school less cliquey, I don't think uniforms are the right answer.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Tue May 28, 2013 12:57 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
Funkyterrance wrote:I had to wear one from grades 1-8. I didn't mind it because it made it easy to get dressed in teh morning, didn't have to ask my Mom if it matched, etc.. Was good too because the richer kids and the poorer kids all looked the same: Dorky.


I had no chance of ever appearing cool when I lived in the states. I didn't like the obvious social divisions that wearing a certain type of clothing enforced though. I think it's kind of a fallacy to think that schoolkids don't have uniforms if they're not mandated by the school.


I agree with your last sentence, but I also think it's a fallacy to think that schoolkids who wear actual uniforms don't develop cliques based on relative wealth, fashion sense, and attractiveness (among other things). There are cool kids and dorky kids and rich kids and poor kids in any school, and they organize into cliques, even if all those kids have to wear a school-provided outfit.


Sure, and while I did acknowledge that earlier, I also think that mandated uniforms make it less of a factor.


Mandated uniforms make what less of a factor? Perhaps the cliquey-ness occurs less quickly in a mandated uniform school, but it still happens. If our purpose is to make school less cliquey, I don't think uniforms are the right answer.


I guess I can only say again that I acknowledged that earlier. I would say that mandated uniforms help, or, to phrase it differently, are a part of the answer.

For my part I'm not under the impression that kids will ever stop basic bullying. I do think that uniforms work well.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby thegreekdog on Tue May 28, 2013 1:56 pm

Symmetry wrote:For my part I'm not under the impression that kids will ever stop basic bullying. I do think that uniforms work well.


My only evidence is anecdotal (and not even my own experience, my siblings' experiences). Uniforms did not protect folks cliquey-ness in their schools, but if there is evidence that it works, then so be it.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Tue May 28, 2013 2:04 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:For my part I'm not under the impression that kids will ever stop basic bullying. I do think that uniforms work well.


My only evidence is anecdotal (and not even my own experience, my siblings' experiences). Uniforms did not protect folks cliquey-ness in their schools, but if there is evidence that it works, then so be it.


Fair enough.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby betiko on Tue May 28, 2013 7:54 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
betiko wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.


Exactly. And here in France Islam is over 20/100 of the population. It has nothing to do with islamophobia, you can t wear a Christian cross, a David star why would we allow head scarves? France, along with Turkey is one of the only countries built on laicity. A headscarf is seen as proselitism in a public school or any government facility. That s how it is and if you re not happy about it send your kids to a private school. Why would radical Islamists have the right to make us change the principles of our republic? Threatening us with terrorist attacks for living by our own laws in our own country? They can suck it up.


Yeah, and when one French guy gives me a bad day, I assume all French people are like that.

(That's your thinking in an analogy. Do you like it?)


Hum.. There is absolutely no link between what you quoted and the concept of making generalities. You didn t get my point.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Wed May 29, 2013 1:55 am

betiko wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
betiko wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.


Exactly. And here in France Islam is over 20/100 of the population. It has nothing to do with islamophobia, you can t wear a Christian cross, a David star why would we allow head scarves? France, along with Turkey is one of the only countries built on laicity. A headscarf is seen as proselitism in a public school or any government facility. That s how it is and if you re not happy about it send your kids to a private school. Why would radical Islamists have the right to make us change the principles of our republic? Threatening us with terrorist attacks for living by our own laws in our own country? They can suck it up.


Yeah, and when one French guy gives me a bad day, I assume all French people are like that.

(That's your thinking in an analogy. Do you like it?)


Hum.. There is absolutely no link between what you quoted and the concept of making generalities. You didn t get my point.


Could you restate it for the unwashed masses, 'cause wiki makes your 20% claim seem weird.

Estimates of the number of Muslims in France vary widely. In 1999, French census officials stated that there were 3.7 million people of “possible Muslim faith” in France (6.3% of the total population). In 2003, the French Ministry of the Interior estimated the total number of people of Muslim background to be between five and six million (8–10%).[240][241]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Religion

Note, "of Muslim background".
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby saxitoxin on Wed May 29, 2013 2:14 am

IIRC, BBS lives next to an entire swamp filled with French people and alligators so he knows what it's like to get a bad day from one or the other.

Anyway, what was this sub-thread about?

Symmetry - describe your uniform for us in detail. Did you wear long pants or short pants? What kind of tie? Was there a blazer or sweater? (I don't care but PhatScotty asked me to ask you. He was breathing heavily at the time, not sure why, he must have a Cold or something.)
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Symmetry on Wed May 29, 2013 2:26 am

saxitoxin wrote:IIRC, BBS lives next to an entire swamp filled with French people and alligators so he knows what it's like to get a bad day from one or the other.

Anyway, what was this sub-thread about?

Symmetry - describe your uniform for us in detail. Did you wear long pants or short pants? What kind of tie? Was there a blazer or sweater? (I don't care but PhatScotty asked me to ask you. He was breathing heavily at the time, not sure why, he must have a Cold or something.)


I always assume that Scotty is breathing heavily. I had to wear a brown shirt, with a black tie. Brown jacket for when Dear Leader spoke, or for special occasions like crystal fun night (we had to have an arm band though, so we knew who was on our team)
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby muy_thaiguy on Wed May 29, 2013 3:06 am

Never had uniforms. Had a dress code where there was not curse words and what not. Even at the Catholic Elementary school I went to, we never had uniforms. Though the dress code was more strict.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby betiko on Wed May 29, 2013 10:24 am

Symmetry wrote:
betiko wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
betiko wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.


Exactly. And here in France Islam is over 20/100 of the population. It has nothing to do with islamophobia, you can t wear a Christian cross, a David star why would we allow head scarves? France, along with Turkey is one of the only countries built on laicity. A headscarf is seen as proselitism in a public school or any government facility. That s how it is and if you re not happy about it send your kids to a private school. Why would radical Islamists have the right to make us change the principles of our republic? Threatening us with terrorist attacks for living by our own laws in our own country? They can suck it up.


Yeah, and when one French guy gives me a bad day, I assume all French people are like that.

(That's your thinking in an analogy. Do you like it?)


Hum.. There is absolutely no link between what you quoted and the concept of making generalities. You didn t get my point.


Could you restate it for the unwashed masses, 'cause wiki makes your 20% claim seem weird.

Estimates of the number of Muslims in France vary widely. In 1999, French census officials stated that there were 3.7 million people of “possible Muslim faith” in France (6.3% of the total population). In 2003, the French Ministry of the Interior estimated the total number of people of Muslim background to be between five and six million (8–10%).[240][241]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France#Religion

Note, "of Muslim background".



interresting. I've heard the 20% thing a few times but I never actually checked it out. one point for symmetry.
Funny thing is that on all surveys, catholics and atheist/agnostics represent 90% of french people, going from 85%-5% accoding to the CIA to 45%-45% according to french studies. Maybe french people were too embarassed to tell americans the they didn't give a f*ck of the inherited religion they got from their family.
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Re: School Uniforms

Postby Funkyterrance on Wed May 29, 2013 11:40 pm

Ok, speaking from experience I can see that you non-uniform wearing people are missing information due to your third party point of reference. School uniforms do decrease the formation of cliques(barring exclusion of really weird kids) and make for a less self conscious population.
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