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what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby waauw on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:24 pm

The too big to fail-banks are using your deposit money, which should be going out as loans to entrepreneurs and consumers, as money to invest in derivatives. They package their loans into derivatives to sell them to other banks, making any bank failure even more dangerous than they already were before. This results in a circular environment where any bad investment can have grave consequences for the entire financial sector.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-19/what-jpmorgans-london-whale-office-investing-your-deposits-now

They really earn the name "banksters".
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:32 pm

Meh. They have few options. When the Fed drives down interest rates, the profitability of the relatively safer investments shrinks. So, they have to either invest in more longer term, thus higher yielding investments, or relatively riskier investments.* *(This will be a serious problem for later, e.g. people investing a ton in junk bonds). That, and the economy still sucks. Many businesses and banks are holding onto tons of cash (I forget the amount they're sitting on, but it's insane).

Pension funds are having this problem of chasing yield too---thanks to the Fed's monetary policies.

Also, there's the uncertainty from the Dodd-Frank rules (a.k.a. "regime uncertainty"). And yada yada. No one in government* admits to these unintended consequences, and if they mention them, they significantly downplay them. They're so useless and unscientific.

    *Some within government do, but they usually loss their jobs or get pressured to quit. It's a terrible culture.

But, it doesn't surprise me that the most inefficient banks which were bailed out are still playing it stupid again; however, they're 'correct' to act along these incentives, which the federal government established for them.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby patches70 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:50 pm

Cheap money makes malinvestment a given. Especially since if (when) the malinvestment blows up, Golden Parachutes open and no one has to ever worry about being tossed into jail for fraud.

It's a great system if you are a banker. It's not so bad either if you are a politician who can get lots of cheap money to spend on promises traded for votes.


For the rest of us, not so much.....
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby patches70 on Sat Jul 20, 2013 2:59 pm

And after JPM lost something like $9 billion last year of their client's money, they gotta do something to make money. Jamie Dimon is richer than the rest of us because he's good at slaughtering muppets.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:49 pm

waauw wrote:The too big to fail-banks are using your deposit money, which should be going out as loans to entrepreneurs and consumers, as money to invest in derivatives. They package their loans into derivatives to sell them to other banks, making any bank failure even more dangerous than they already were before. This results in a circular environment where any bad investment can have grave consequences for the entire financial sector.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-19/what-jpmorgans-london-whale-office-investing-your-deposits-now

They really earn the name "banksters".


...Summarizing my thesis paper from college, in 2000. Titled "The Exotic Derivatives Daisy Chain"
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby fadedpsychosis on Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:41 am

... can someone do an english version summary of that article? it had a lot of words that I'm not sure are really words at all, and made no sense to me... I'm a soldier, not an economist...
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby waauw on Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:49 am

fadedpsychosis wrote:... can someone do an english version summary of that article? it had a lot of words that I'm not sure are really words at all, and made no sense to me... I'm a soldier, not an economist...


basically this is what happens: Instead of using deposits to help the people and the economy as a whole by giving out loans, which is what the FED printing policy is all about, the banks are using the people's money to invest in derivatives further making the financial sector even more interconnected and more unstable. They are making the pre-2008 situations even worse than they already were.

This ofcourse is not a durable environment. It's a ticking time bomb. It's hard to know when it'll implode but at some point it will unless something changes drastically. And as the governements and central banks have already shot their last bullets. There will be nothing to stop a global financial collapse, which might even result in a crisis worse than the great depression of the 30's.

And if you don't know what happened in the 30's, just imagine what is happening in Greece to happen to the entire world. One big bank might be all it takes to drag down everybody else.

A global financial collapse would result in the fact that everybody holding paper money(bonds, derivatives and unbacked currencies) will lose wealth and those who hold tangible assets(businesses, houses, lands, ...) will gain from it. It's pretty much a game of musical chairs where it's certain most people will lose and only a small part of the population will gain from it. And unfortunately as always it'll probably be the super rich who gain most from it. The middle class and the lower parts of the upper class are probably going to be the biggest victims of this.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:30 am

waauw wrote:The too big to fail-banks are using your deposit money, which should be going out as loans to entrepreneurs and consumers, as money to invest in derivatives. They package their loans into derivatives to sell them to other banks, making any bank failure even more dangerous than they already were before. This results in a circular environment where any bad investment can have grave consequences for the entire financial sector.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-07-19/what-jpmorgans-london-whale-office-investing-your-deposits-now

They really earn the name "banksters".

Oh, no, you utterly misunderstand. Its not really our money, it always was their money.. and they can do what they want with it because their right to try and earn money is more important than anything else.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:31 am

waauw wrote:
fadedpsychosis wrote:... can someone do an english version summary of that article? it had a lot of words that I'm not sure are really words at all, and made no sense to me... I'm a soldier, not an economist...


basically this is what happens: Instead of using deposits to help the people and the economy as a whole by giving out loans, which is what the FED printing policy is all about, the banks are using the people's money to invest in derivatives further making the financial sector even more interconnected and more unstable. They are making the pre-2008 situations even worse than they already were.

This ofcourse is not a durable environment. It's a ticking time bomb. It's hard to know when it'll implode but at some point it will unless something changes drastically. And as the governements and central banks have already shot their last bullets. There will be nothing to stop a global financial collapse, which might even result in a crisis worse than the great depression of the 30's.

And if you don't know what happened in the 30's, just imagine what is happening in Greece to happen to the entire world. One big bank might be all it takes to drag down everybody else.

A global financial collapse would result in the fact that everybody holding paper money(bonds, derivatives and unbacked currencies) will lose wealth and those who hold tangible assets(businesses, houses, lands, ...) will gain from it. It's pretty much a game of musical chairs where it's certain most people will lose and only a small part of the population will gain from it. And unfortunately as always it'll probably be the super rich who gain most from it. The middle class and the lower parts of the upper class are probably going to be the biggest victims of this.
With all respect, I can make it even shorter.. the banks are reselling loans to themselves with nothing "real" to back it. Since not enough real outside money is coming in, the system will fail. You could call it a kind of pyramid scheme or just say its the mortgage crisis all over, except this time, its just banks that will fail.

That might seem OK, since most of us have insured deposits, but remember how just propping up a bunch of bad housing loans almost collapsed the system and you see why its time to worry.. again.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby fadedpsychosis on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:36 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:
waauw wrote:
fadedpsychosis wrote:... can someone do an english version summary of that article? it had a lot of words that I'm not sure are really words at all, and made no sense to me... I'm a soldier, not an economist...


basically this is what happens: Instead of using deposits to help the people and the economy as a whole by giving out loans, which is what the FED printing policy is all about, the banks are using the people's money to invest in derivatives further making the financial sector even more interconnected and more unstable. They are making the pre-2008 situations even worse than they already were.

This ofcourse is not a durable environment. It's a ticking time bomb. It's hard to know when it'll implode but at some point it will unless something changes drastically. And as the governements and central banks have already shot their last bullets. There will be nothing to stop a global financial collapse, which might even result in a crisis worse than the great depression of the 30's.

And if you don't know what happened in the 30's, just imagine what is happening in Greece to happen to the entire world. One big bank might be all it takes to drag down everybody else.

A global financial collapse would result in the fact that everybody holding paper money(bonds, derivatives and unbacked currencies) will lose wealth and those who hold tangible assets(businesses, houses, lands, ...) will gain from it. It's pretty much a game of musical chairs where it's certain most people will lose and only a small part of the population will gain from it. And unfortunately as always it'll probably be the super rich who gain most from it. The middle class and the lower parts of the upper class are probably going to be the biggest victims of this.
With all respect, I can make it even shorter.. the banks are reselling loans to themselves with nothing "real" to back it. Since not enough real outside money is coming in, the system will fail. You could call it a kind of pyramid scheme or just say its the mortgage crisis all over, except this time, its just banks that will fail.

That might seem OK, since most of us have insured deposits, but remember how just propping up a bunch of bad housing loans almost collapsed the system and you see why its time to worry.. again.

thanks you two, that's a lot easier to understand... I have a hard enough time keeping up with military acronyms.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:53 pm

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.


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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby waauw on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:04 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.


Thomas Jefferson



"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."


President Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:30 pm

waauw wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.


Thomas Jefferson



"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."


President Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence


I have always "thanked" Teddy Roosevelt for Woodrow Wilson. Progress, indeed.... TR puts himself on mount Rushmore, Wilson puts himself on the top bill denomination. Yeah, they were great men :roll:

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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby PLAYER57832 on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:32 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
waauw wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.


Thomas Jefferson



"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."


President Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence


I have always "thanked" Teddy Roosevelt for Woodrow Wilson. Progress, indeed.... TR puts himself on mount Rushmore, Wilson puts himself on the top bill denomination. Yeah, they were great men :roll:

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I see, but you do realize that a lot of this type of activity was actually controlled a few decades ago.. and then undone in the wave of low taxes and a better business environment.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby Fruitcake on Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:34 pm

And this is why (as I said back in 2008) Hedge Funds are the new banks.
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Due to current economic conditions the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby loutil on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:17 pm

waauw wrote:
fadedpsychosis wrote:... can someone do an english version summary of that article? it had a lot of words that I'm not sure are really words at all, and made no sense to me... I'm a soldier, not an economist...


basically this is what happens: Instead of using deposits to help the people and the economy as a whole by giving out loans, which is what the FED printing policy is all about, the banks are using the people's money to invest in derivatives further making the financial sector even more interconnected and more unstable. They are making the pre-2008 situations even worse than they already were.


With all due respect...it is not the banks responsibility to "help the people and the economy as a whole by giving out loans". That is also an oversimplification of Fed policy. Further, while some banks do use derivatives it is absurd to suggest banks are not making loans. You do recognize that millions of people have refinanced their loans over the past few years? Have bank lending standard become more strict? Yes, of course. Is that a bad thing? No, not in my opinion. Our previous problem was the direct result of too much credit, especially to people who had no business being extended credit. Banks are in business to make money. They are not in business as a tool of social engineering...even if you would like them to be :).
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby patches70 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:49 pm

loutil wrote:Banks are in business to make money.


This is absolutely a great point. It's the central point, the one we cannot forget. Let's look at the biggest bank, a group of banks actually. The Federal Reserve.

Despite the name, there is nothing "Federal" about it. It's not a branch of government. The President appoints the chairman of the Federal Reserve, but the rest of the board is decided by the Fed.
The Federal Reserve is a private corporation. And it's business is to make money for it's member banks.

The central point, which you so perfectly summed up.

But The Federal Reserve can also do something else, something the US government lets them do. Create money. All money created, every dollar, every penny be it printed or created digitally, is created by The Federal Reserve, in the beginning at least. Regular old banks can create money as well, it's called "Fractional Reserve Banking".

Keeping in mind that banks are in the business of making money, answer me this-

If your business is to make money, and you are also given the power to create money, where does that lead?

Lots of businesses and people are "in the business of making money" and they do so by providing a good or service. But The Federal Reserve makes no goods, provides no services, except to make money by loaning money they create out of thin air.

And their biggest customer is the US government, of which you, your children, your children's children and the rest of you countrymen who live now and are yet to be born, are the ones who have to pay that money back.

And the real shit kicker, is that when you look at the initial creation of money, you realize that when the government creates a bond, to which they sell to The Fed, who creates the money out of thin air to purchase the bond, The Fed does not create the money needed to pay the interest.

Imagine, at the very beginning, there isn't a single dollar of currency in existence. The government wants $100 created. They create a bond that essentially says "I owe you $100 plus interest" and give it to The Fed. The Fed says, "ok" and $100 is printed. Now you've got $100 to circulate among your citizens to facilitate trade and the government will tax those sales and incomes to pay back The Fed.
So the government taxes everyone until the point they have $100. To the point when every single bit of currency in the system is no longer in the system, but is now ready to be paid back to The Fed. The government gives The Fed the $100 and The Fed says- "Hey, wait a minute, you still owe the interest!" Except the government can't pay the interest because the money to pay the interest doesn't exist!

So the government has to take out another loan, and from that pay the interest but is now even further in debt. To tax from the people, to pay back The Fed to take out another loan to pay that interest, to tax from the people to pay back The Fed....

You get the idea yet?

It is a perpetual debt machine that once entered into can never be gotten out of. And through those taxes, through that interest, all paid for by the very currency that The Fed created in the first place, real tangible assets are acquired, real people had to sweat, labor and bleed, it all ends up owned by....the banks.





That goes beyond simply "in the business of making money", doesn't it?



loutil wrote: They are not in business as a tool of social engineering...even if you would like them to be :).


With power like The Fed has, they can do pretty much anything they want, even if it's not in your best interest, just so long as it is in theirs.

One day people, everyone, will realize that the Federal Reserve Notes they carry around in their wallets, their purses, it isn't money. It's a note of debt. A debt owed to, it's right there on the currency, The Federal Reserve. Hence "Federal Reserve Note". Go ahead, look on any bill you have on you. It's right there.

It's a debt based monetary system. And that's a fact.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby loutil on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:05 pm

Interesting points...
I had a conversation recently with Jeff Gundlach (look him if you need to but he is an intellectual high thinker in the world of finance and money) and he proffered an interesting question: what would happen if the the government decided NOT to pay back the notes the Fed was buying? What if that debt was just "canceled". Who would be harmed?

Think about that for a few moments :o ...
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby patches70 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:30 pm

loutil wrote:Interesting points...
I had a conversation recently with Jeff Gundlach (look him if you need to but he is an intellectual high thinker in the world of finance and money) and he proffered an interesting question: what would happen if the the government decided NOT to pay back the notes the Fed was buying? What if that debt was just "canceled". Who would be harmed?

Think about that for a few moments :o ...



Haha! The people that would be harmed is everyone who is invested. Like China. Europe. The banks (who also hold everyone's deposits). The people who get the politicians elected. The elites. The citizens. Except that if such a thing were to be coming, and those who needed to know would certainly know, would take steps so that in the end, who really gets hurt, is just the regular people.

Repudiation is certainly an option, and it's happened before in history, but the results are....dramatic. Repudiation is the only way places like Greece are going to ever get out from under the thumb of the EMU. But it ain't gonna happen. When our current incarnation of currency dies, and it will die, it will simply be replaced by yet another type of debt based money because no one really seems to care about the scam. The people who benefit most will always work to have it replaced by yet another similar system, and all those who get hurt by the debt based system don't understand it enough to know any better.

We've got to remember what the original purpose of money is. Why it was invented in the first place. It's something we've forgotten and that's where we really are. Cast away in not-so-blissful ignorance.

But you still didn't answer the question I asked of you-

If your business is to make money, and you are also given the power to create money, where does that lead?
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby patches70 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:35 pm

I should amend this part, though-

patches70 wrote:Repudiation is certainly an option, and it's happened before in history, but the results are....dramatic. Repudiation is the only way places like Greece are going to ever get out from under the thumb of the EMU.


The EMU will happily repudiate Greece's debt and kick her out of the EMU after the nation has been stripped clean of everything of value. Which that process has been going on for a while now....

Like vultures picking a dead zebra apart on the plains.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby Nobunaga on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:43 am

PLAYER57832 wrote:Oh, no, you utterly misunderstand. Its not really our money, it always was their money.. and they can do what they want with it because they know what's best for you.


Edited your line a bit, and now you're describing liberal Democrat thinking perfectly.

Couldn't help myself - it just fit so well.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby waauw on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:31 am

loutil wrote:
waauw wrote:
fadedpsychosis wrote:... can someone do an english version summary of that article? it had a lot of words that I'm not sure are really words at all, and made no sense to me... I'm a soldier, not an economist...


basically this is what happens: Instead of using deposits to help the people and the economy as a whole by giving out loans, which is what the FED printing policy is all about, the banks are using the people's money to invest in derivatives further making the financial sector even more interconnected and more unstable. They are making the pre-2008 situations even worse than they already were.


With all due respect...it is not the banks responsibility to "help the people and the economy as a whole by giving out loans". That is also an oversimplification of Fed policy. Further, while some banks do use derivatives it is absurd to suggest banks are not making loans. You do recognize that millions of people have refinanced their loans over the past few years? Have bank lending standard become more strict? Yes, of course. Is that a bad thing? No, not in my opinion. Our previous problem was the direct result of too much credit, especially to people who had no business being extended credit. Banks are in business to make money. They are not in business as a tool of social engineering...even if you would like them to be :).


Did I say that banks were giving zero loans? I said that there is a huge gap nowadays with which banks prefer investing in the stock market rather than investing in the real economy. This is not how you drive an economy to growth. According to the FED's own statements, their goal is to stimulate economic growth, but for that sufficient money needs to flow to the real economy. This is thus a huge mistake that the FED is making. All they are doing is propping up another stock market bubble.

The criticism here is that this is an unsustainable situation.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby waauw on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:43 am

patches70 wrote:I should amend this part, though-

patches70 wrote:Repudiation is certainly an option, and it's happened before in history, but the results are....dramatic. Repudiation is the only way places like Greece are going to ever get out from under the thumb of the EMU.


The EMU will happily repudiate Greece's debt and kick her out of the EMU after the nation has been stripped clean of everything of value. Which that process has been going on for a while now....

Like vultures picking a dead zebra apart on the plains.


That's the politicians you're talking about. Large parts of the european population actually just want greeced kicked out now. The richer northern european people want nothing to do with Greece anymore, they just want to leave Greece to die. The greeks are nowadays seen as thieves and money extorters over here. This is why nationalist extremism is on the rise.
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby waauw on Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:46 am

loutil wrote:Interesting points...
I had a conversation recently with Jeff Gundlach (look him if you need to but he is an intellectual high thinker in the world of finance and money) and he proffered an interesting question: what would happen if the the government decided NOT to pay back the notes the Fed was buying? What if that debt was just "canceled". Who would be harmed?

Think about that for a few moments :o ...


Is that just the debts to the FED your talking about or all debts?
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Re: what wallstreet is doing with your money

Postby loutil on Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:10 am

waauw wrote:
loutil wrote:Interesting points...
I had a conversation recently with Jeff Gundlach (look him if you need to but he is an intellectual high thinker in the world of finance and money) and he proffered an interesting question: what would happen if the the government decided NOT to pay back the notes the Fed was buying? What if that debt was just "canceled". Who would be harmed?

Think about that for a few moments :o ...


Is that just the debts to the FED your talking about or all debts?

Obviously, just the debts to the Fed. Otherwise, the system would collapse :)...
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