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Reality Check for Obama Supporters

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How do you feel knowing that your president is as aggressive as Bush 2.0?

 
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:52 pm

If someone breaks into your house, holds a gun to your head and forces you to sign a contract awarding him the deed to your house, that contract is invalid.

And yet the same thing is happening right now with respect to Syria and the CW Pact. It is being forced to sign it under threat of obliteration by America. There should be no doubt that there is no international order left and the Westphalian system no longer exists. It's all just a series of legal fictions covering rule by a gun whose trigger is in Arlington, Virginia.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:00 pm

sax wrote:There is absolutely nothing to restrain Israeli military action in the Levant now - Syria's chemical weapons were the only deterrent to Israeli military action in the region.
...
(Of course that may happen anyway and the FSA, et. al. are in for a rude surprise when the west pulls the carpet out from underneath and stops the gravy train once Syrian CW are gone.)


Sax, you forget. Russia holds a wild card: Iran, and Syria still remains a potentially profitable tool for projecting US interests since the diminishing of the CW deterrent may not prove rewarding enough.

Iran will continue developing its nuclear weapons which will deter Israel (marginally) from expanding its power in that region. Depending on the (1) power of Iran's nuclear constraint and (2) the attrition of Iranian/Iranian-trained and subsidized forces (e.g. Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah, and Co.) Israel's regional power can increase, decrease, or remain constant.*

    *Assuming (a) Israel does not significantly attain peace with Palestine---which in my opinion would strongly encourage Hamas to expand its economic base, thereby expanding its military spending and production. Also, (b) the US military budget will not be significantly reduced.

Also, Russia controls the levers on a large portion of the oil/natty gas imports to Europe, so this implicit deterrent may serve as some constraint on the European NATO forces, thereby possibly decreasing US/Israeli power projection into the ME region. (Of course, a decrease in this supply could be fulfilled by in an increase in supply from non-Russians sources, but these sources would expectantly come at a higher price. In short, it depends on how the millions of Europeans economize on their use of these energy sources).


So, the next play in US--aside from flipping Syria to a pro-US government, is (1) to deal with Iran's power projection and (2) to increase non-Russian controlled/influenced oil and natty gas imports to Europe.

I expect the US to continue or to expand its Special Forces operations in the Syrian region, plus its CIA ops of subsidizing rebels while drone striking other rebels/government officials. Why? Because terrorism!!1 and the US electorate doesn't care enough or isn't aware of such operations--[insert "national security/interests" rhetoric]), and finally because having a pro-US Syria is much more useful and possibly attainable compared to having an unknown/anti-US Syria. [/pro-US Syria].

Now (1). Constraining Iran depends on future US relations with Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, and maybe Syria and to the least degree Egypt. These respective countries are also bogged down with domestic issues (economic and military), so their degree of support in US' efforts against Iran will vary. With continued US subsidies to these countries, influence could be curried, thus future forces could be used against Iran in a most likely supportive role (defense, intelligence, infrastructure/logistics, AA positioning--especially missile defense systems (MDS)).

Constraint also depends on interdiction (e.g. enforcing economic embargoes by violent threats diplomacy and by theft confiscation, as well as pressuring others to decrease/cease Iranian imports).


Increase non-Russian oil/natty gas imports to Europe:
It depends on whether or not the market can be made more competitive by dealing with the Kurd-Iraqis, Other Iraqis, and many other big time supplies and investors of capital in completing the Syrian pipeline which would flow directly into Turkey, thereby into Europe at a lower price (thanks, patches, very interesting analysis).

There's way too many variables in this. Other governments (OPEC) may be disinclined to supply more to Europe, thereby lowering the prices (which depends on quantity demanded after this increase in supply). And given the many innovations and other nuances of exchange and production in the market, the USG will have a difficult time going this route--which is why it opts toward violence/empire in these matters, thus (1) will be their main course.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:27 pm

Well yes, Iran continues to be a deterrent against Israel, but for how long? Ismerica has a methodical approach - kneecapping its enemies one by one instead of trying to hit them all at once like Hitler. Iraq, Libya, Syria ... Iran is next in the crosshairs.

Why would America, fundamentally, care about the price of natural gas in Europe? Russia has a ceiling on the price it can charge Europe for gas. At a certain point it becomes cheaper for Betiko to fry his crĆŖpes with gas from America than gas from the pipeline. Or he'll just f*ck a seal and give birth to a Quebecois. Then he gets all the cheap Alberta natural gas he wants.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby warmonger1981 on Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:12 pm

Does anyone know much about MEFTA or Middle East Free Trade Agreement? What countries would or would not support it? I remember Colin Powell preaching it about 7 year ago. Just wondering if some of these countries being over run were for it or not.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:24 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:Does anyone know much about MEFTA or Middle East Free Trade Agreement? What countries would or would not support it? I remember Colin Powell preaching it about 7 year ago. Just wondering if some of these countries being over run were for it or not.


google "free trade agreement" and .gov and that'll lead to the USG website which lists the status of each FTA.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Baron Von PWN on Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:46 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:What's interesting here is that Obama could have gone ahead if he wanted to. He has the power as president to authorize military strikes. However despite all his talk of national interest, security threats ect, he hasn't done that. Instead he brings it to congress,but says we should wait till it reconvenes and goes along with Putin's likely unworkable plan, it's as though the white house has no coherent strategy with regards to Syria.

"We need to intervene due to x,y and z, but let's wait two weeks for congress. What's this Putin has proposed some plan designed to buy Assad more time? Hold off talking about this congress, we need to pursue this. "

To me it seems like the white house really doesn't want to intervene, as they are taking any excuse to delay doing so, or are completely confused as to what to do.


I'd say they want to invade but cannot muster the support. Usually, a president has more 'freedom' (autocratic ability) during his 2nd term since he's not going to be reelected, so to me his 2nd term activities are often a good indicator of what he himself really wants.

Another constraint is the recent US/NATO-Libyan war. Had his (un)declaration of war against Libya in 2011 not occurred, he might've been able to pull off the same thing with Syria (no congressional vote and all that).


So they'd like to but are afraid (domestic) of what it will do to the democratic party and (internationally) what it would do to the US relations should he just go ahead and invade?

Maybe, I think it's a bit of lack of support, and their heart isn't really into it.


I'm not sure if they have the Greater Good of the Democratic Party in mind, thus they would constrain themselves. It works the other way. The Democrats and--to a lesser degree--the Republicans via their constituents (to some degree) are serving as a constraint on the president's ambitions (and his NSC + other groupthinkers').

Also, it's about the 'path-dependency' of Obama's previous actions (e.g. the war against Libya, the increasingly unyielding attitude against compromise, thus incurring the loss of potential logrolling/exchange of favors, etc.). In other words, the US-Libyan war wasn't taken as well as previously expected since it caused many Obama fans to become more skeptical of the imagined greatness of Obama. So, when his fans see that Obama wants to attack another country, they would marginally scale back support/faith in the president (Of course, his members' faith still runs strong--just not as strongly pre-war + other stuff).

One implication of this is that Obama does not wish to increasingly isolate himself from his future fanbase. By retaining as large as a possible such a fanbase, he'll increase his potential streams of future income (e.g. future speeches, charity foundations, etc.--just like Bill Clinton). Obama's got post-presidential profit-maximization in mind, so if the Public doesn't like war with Syria, then Obama will opt for more future streams of money at the opportunity cost of (currently) not going to war with Syria.

The opinions of the international community--in relation to the above--don't matter as much.


Now maybe the father in law got me a little drunk. Maybe that is influencing my post here, But, I suspect that Obama has more in mind when considering foreing policy than book deals. Mayhaps I am being a stary eyed (drunken) idealist. Besides the man is already a multi millionaire(worth over $10 milion).

I would posit that when people run for the presidency of a country they actually do this out of the interest of their country. This isn't to say they are averse to taking advantage of lucrative opportunities which may arise from their position, but I would suggest that personal gain is secondary to the gain of the nation. Besides even unpopular presidents get cushy deals (Bush is worth over $30 million). So I don't really think personal wealth is a major factor for these guys .
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:35 pm

BVP wrote:Now maybe the father in law got me a little drunk. Maybe that is influencing my post here, But, I suspect that Obama has more in mind when considering foreing policy than book deals. Mayhaps I am being a stary eyed (drunken) idealist. Besides the man is already a multi millionaire(worth over $10 milion).

I would posit that when people run for the presidency of a country they actually do this out of the interest of their country. This isn't to say they are averse to taking advantage of lucrative opportunities which may arise from their position, but I would suggest that personal gain is secondary to the gain of the nation. Besides even unpopular presidents get cushy deals (Bush is worth over $30 million). So I don't really think personal wealth is a major factor for these guys .



Eh, he gets that $10 mil for appealing to his target market. It's profitable to be the president, and depending on one's goals, more funding is better than less. (I've never seen a satiated president right after 1st or 2nd term, but I could be wrong. Regarding Obama, I think he's right on the money). I'll explain below:


I would posit that when people run for the presidency of a country they actually do this out of the interest of their country.


There is no 'interest of the country'. That's the problem. That phrase is simply defined by whoever revisions the 'public interest', and for any politician, that phrase is definitely narrowed by one's constituents; therefore, the 'public interest' becomes geared toward 'those who support me' (which is about 30% of the electorate for Obama). Also, you'll have the president's Vision of the Country which can be distinct from and conflict with the actual 'public interest' and even the interest of his constituents. My main point here is that there is a lot buried beneath that seemingly comforting assumption for his motivation.

So, given all that, then sure, a presidential candidate has some vision of a New America, which may include his defined 'public' interest; however, three points: (0) a president still retains his self-interest. It's not like he is self-interested while shopping in the grocery store, and then transforms magically into public interest mode while in office. (1) Once in office, the president deals with a new set of institutions (rules of the game), which may hamper the president's means for attaining his initial vision, thus a president might not be able to promote the 'public'/'his public' interests (see: Obamacare, it was poorly implemented as should have been expected. But why wasn't that expected? Because many presume that the general interests are in the mind's eye of the politicians and bureaucrats. That simply isn't true).

Anyway, other institutions include those of USFP (US foreign policy), where regardless of presidential dreams, the chief bureaucrats of the War Group of government have their own incentives/rules which lead to outcomes different than what the president may have imagined before.

Then (2), the president still behaves as if he is profit-maximizing (as described previously here. So even if he (a) appears to be promoting some unknown public interest, he (b) definitely will be rewarded as I've described. The two motivations (a&b) 'coincide', but from my perspective, the (b) dominates and (a) is used as an excuse (e.g. as moral rhetoric which is used to convince people to give the politician/bureaucrat authorization and funding to do X). We've seen that happen during the war drum ensemble for further US intervention into Syria. I see it every time a president opens his mouth publicly. In short, it's bullshit.

If being president wasn't rewarded as such, then no one would want to spend all those decades of grooming, training, and exchanging favors in order to become president. And think of how a president qualifies: rhetoric and appearing to be a Leader (i.e. being manipulative). All you need are the votes, so with an incentive to excel in bullshitting, it's no wonder that politicians aren't promoting the general interest.

(There's more like the relative weakness of political accountability compared to market accountability, and much much more, but I'll spare us).
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:25 pm

I would posit that when people run for the presidency of a country they actually do this out of the interest of their country.


1. $10 million isn't enough to buy or do anything you could conceivably want ... I'd say you need $100 million or so to get to the level where money is no object for anything but the most outrageous things. Plus, ex-presidents are expected to maintain a certain lifestyle, not all of which is underwritten by the government. IIRC Winston Churchill was offered a Dukedom but turned it down in favor of being made an Earl instead because he couldn't afford the lifestyle of a Duke. I think being an ex-president is like forcibly being made a Duke.

2. Sociopaths, of which I think Obama is probably one, can have trouble achieving sexual satisfaction through normal means. In some of his actions we see clues about what gets him off. The NYT recently covered that he demands to personally give the orders to kill people in drone strikes. He may be fulfilling a primal, physical need. Each time he - through just whispered word - can cause a dozen people to drop dead on the other side of the planet, he probably achieves a certain orgasmic climax he can't get through normal means due to his illness.

3. Obama may have deep-set ideological motivations. He spent years going one day out of seven to a frothing-at-the-mouth, talking-in-tongues church. He may have bought-in to Israel's claim that they are populated by a master race of powerful magicians and is happy to do their bidding to gain immortal favor.

4. He may just not be that bright and has simply always done what his handlers have told him to do and is still doing that today. Of the presidents since Kennedy, the only ones who have seemed genuinely intelligent to me were Clinton, Carter, George H.W. Bush and Nixon. The rest just give off the aura of actors (in some cases, legitimately so, i.e. Reagan).
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Symmetry on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:35 pm

saxitoxin wrote: He may have bought-in to Israel's claim that they are populated by a master race of powerful magicians and is happy to do their bidding to gain immortal favor.


Still not a fan of Jewish people eh, Sax?
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:46 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote: He may have bought-in to Israel's claim that they are populated by a master race of powerful magicians and is happy to do their bidding to gain immortal favor.


Still not a fan of Jewish people eh, Sax?


First, I said Israel, not Jews.

Second, what should I call it when Benny N.'s chief advisor dresses like he's Shabaz the Magnificent and is about to pull a rabbit out of hat?

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Third, I'm a fan of both Shia Labeouf and BBS and they claim to be Jewish (though I can't prove it).

Fourth, I guarantee you I've been to as many Bar/Bat Mitzvahs as you've been to St. Swithin's Day garden parties at the Viscount of Slough's country manor. So a lot.

    Even though you like to wind me up with statements like that I'm still glad you're back as it adds a little zest to the forums.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:13 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote: He may have bought-in to Israel's claim that they are populated by a master race of powerful magicians and is happy to do their bidding to gain immortal favor.


Still not a fan of Jewish people eh, Sax?


First, I said Israel, not Jews.


You're still the man who finds Anne Frank illegitimate on the Holocaust to me dude.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:16 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote: He may have bought-in to Israel's claim that they are populated by a master race of powerful magicians and is happy to do their bidding to gain immortal favor.


Still not a fan of Jewish people eh, Sax?


First, I said Israel, not Jews.


You're still the man who finds Anne Frank illegitimate on the Holocaust to me dude.


you're drunk
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:24 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote: He may have bought-in to Israel's claim that they are populated by a master race of powerful magicians and is happy to do their bidding to gain immortal favor.


Still not a fan of Jewish people eh, Sax?


First, I said Israel, not Jews.


You're still the man who finds Anne Frank illegitimate on the Holocaust to me dude.


you're drunk


saxitoxin wrote:Before I consider what legitimate? That Juan is a victim of the Holocaust by process of acquaintance? If Anne Frank logged onto Conquer Club it wouldn't make that legitimate.

Link

I'd be happy if you elaborated, and happier if you simply said that you were wrong.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:47 pm

Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
saxitoxin wrote: He may have bought-in to Israel's claim that they are populated by a master race of powerful magicians and is happy to do their bidding to gain immortal favor.


Still not a fan of Jewish people eh, Sax?


First, I said Israel, not Jews.


You're still the man who finds Anne Frank illegitimate on the Holocaust to me dude.


you're drunk


saxitoxin wrote:Before I consider what legitimate? That Juan is a victim of the Holocaust by process of acquaintance? If Anne Frank logged onto Conquer Club it wouldn't make that legitimate.

Link

I'd be happy if you elaborated, and happier if you simply said that you were wrong.


In that thread JB had crowned himself a Holocaust survivor despite being born 40 years after WW2. Even an endorsement of JB from Anne Frank herself couldn't legitimize how fundamentally offensive that egotistical notion was to actual Holocaust victims and survivors. I have no problem standing by that.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:55 pm

saxitoxin wrote:In that thread JB had crowned himself a Holocaust survivor despite being born 40 years after WW2. Even an endorsement of JB from Anne Frank herself couldn't legitimize how fundamentally offensive that egotistical notion was to actual Holocaust victims and survivors. I have no problem standing by that.


Do you stand by your argument that you wouldn't consider Anne Frank a legitimate source? I get that you dislike Juan's take, though of course he had a fair argument that he's a survivor, but considering Anne Frank, a legitimate victim of the Holocaust, to be illegitimate?

I think this might be one of the rare times where you don't double down on being an ass, and say that you were wrong.

'tis up to you.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:15 pm

Symmetry wrote: he had a fair argument that he's a survivor


wow, gross
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:19 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Symmetry wrote: he had a fair argument that he's a survivor


wow, gross


You have no need to pull a PhatScotty on this, just admit that you were wrong, and let the thread move forward.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:25 pm

Baron Von PWN wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Baron Von PWN wrote:What's interesting here is that Obama could have gone ahead if he wanted to. He has the power as president to authorize military strikes. However despite all his talk of national interest, security threats ect, he hasn't done that. Instead he brings it to congress,but says we should wait till it reconvenes and goes along with Putin's likely unworkable plan, it's as though the white house has no coherent strategy with regards to Syria.

"We need to intervene due to x,y and z, but let's wait two weeks for congress. What's this Putin has proposed some plan designed to buy Assad more time? Hold off talking about this congress, we need to pursue this. "

To me it seems like the white house really doesn't want to intervene, as they are taking any excuse to delay doing so, or are completely confused as to what to do.


I'd say they want to invade but cannot muster the support. Usually, a president has more 'freedom' (autocratic ability) during his 2nd term since he's not going to be reelected, so to me his 2nd term activities are often a good indicator of what he himself really wants.

Another constraint is the recent US/NATO-Libyan war. Had his (un)declaration of war against Libya in 2011 not occurred, he might've been able to pull off the same thing with Syria (no congressional vote and all that).


So they'd like to but are afraid (domestic) of what it will do to the democratic party and (internationally) what it would do to the US relations should he just go ahead and invade?

Maybe, I think it's a bit of lack of support, and their heart isn't really into it.


Andy (yes, Andy) nailed it in the other thread. The president (and by extension the party) is looking to deflect or disperse potential blame if things go bad to Congress (and specifically Republicans in Congress), most of whom want to intervene in Syria. I don't agree with BBS's theory on second term presidents. There is too much to lose for President Obama if he unilaterally decides to start some shit in Syria.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:03 pm

tgd wrote: I don't agree with BBS's theory on second term presidents. There is too much to lose for President Obama if he unilaterally decides to start some shit in Syria.


Why doesn't your second sentence bring you into agreement with the first sentence?
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:07 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
tgd wrote: I don't agree with BBS's theory on second term presidents. There is too much to lose for President Obama if he unilaterally decides to start some shit in Syria.


Why doesn't your second sentence bring you into agreement with the first sentence?


I maybe misread your post. It's hard. There are way too many words.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby BigBallinStalin on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:11 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
tgd wrote: I don't agree with BBS's theory on second term presidents. There is too much to lose for President Obama if he unilaterally decides to start some shit in Syria.


Why doesn't your second sentence bring you into agreement with the first sentence?


I maybe misread your post. It's hard. There are way too many words.


lol okay.

My main point is that in light of the changing circumstances (lack of enough support from the electorate), Obama will recalibrate his strategy regarding Syria. Recall that he still wants to retain more popularity in order to receive more future streams of income during his post-presidential career.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:14 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
tgd wrote: I don't agree with BBS's theory on second term presidents. There is too much to lose for President Obama if he unilaterally decides to start some shit in Syria.


Why doesn't your second sentence bring you into agreement with the first sentence?


I maybe misread your post. It's hard. There are way too many words.


lol okay.

My main point is that in light of the changing circumstances (lack of enough support from the electorate), Obama will recalibrate his strategy regarding Syria. Recall that he still wants to retain more popularity in order to receive more future streams of income during his post-presidential career.


Yeah, I agree with that (although maybe I would add to "income" something like "continued popularity, worship, and legacy.")
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:17 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
tgd wrote: I don't agree with BBS's theory on second term presidents. There is too much to lose for President Obama if he unilaterally decides to start some shit in Syria.


Why doesn't your second sentence bring you into agreement with the first sentence?


I maybe misread your post. It's hard. There are way too many words.


lol okay.

My main point is that in light of the changing circumstances (lack of enough support from the electorate), Obama will recalibrate his strategy regarding Syria. Recall that he still wants to retain more popularity in order to receive more future streams of income during his post-presidential career.


Yeah, I agree with that (although maybe I would add to "income" something like "continued popularity, worship, and legacy.")


It's quite a climbdown from the poll. One wonders if the change of heart will see a new poll.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:28 pm

I don't know what climbdown means.

I suspect, although this can't be proven, that the poll options are tongue-in-cheek and are meant for Obama supporters (I'm not an Obama supporter, so I did not respond to the poll). Frankly, I suspect the president (and most members of Congress) are looking to increase U.S. power in the Middle East through intervention. I suspect this because I have not heard the president or any members of Congress indicate that this is the reason; rather, I've had various things centered around "it's the right thing to do for the Syrian people" when a few hundred miles south, the people of the Sudan are suffering in worse ways.

And most of President Obama's supporters in the previous two elections (e.g. Frigidus) were ardently anti-war and anti-intervention in foreign conflicts. Those items largely influenced voting (especially in the 2008 presidential election). So, presumably (and again, I can't prove this because I'm not BBS), the question is whether the president's supporters are still as supportive or whether they are upset by the president's attempt to be Bush III (other than giving tax breaks and other benefits to big business).

I suppose, if he wanted to be consistent, BBS could form another poll asking whether the president's detractors (e.g. Night Strike and Phatscottty) are now supportive of the president in his quest for Middle East domination.
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Re: Reality Check for Obama Supporters

Postby Symmetry on Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:33 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I don't know what climbdown means.

I suspect, although this can't be proven, that the poll options are tongue-in-cheek and are meant for Obama supporters (I'm not an Obama supporter, so I did not respond to the poll). Frankly, I suspect the president (and most members of Congress) are looking to increase U.S. power in the Middle East through intervention. I suspect this because I have not heard the president or any members of Congress indicate that this is the reason; rather, I've had various things centered around "it's the right thing to do for the Syrian people" when a few hundred miles south, the people of the Sudan are suffering in worse ways.

And most of President Obama's supporters in the previous two elections (e.g. Frigidus) were ardently anti-war and anti-intervention in foreign conflicts. Those items largely influenced voting (especially in the 2008 presidential election). So, presumably (and again, I can't prove this because I'm not BBS), the question is whether the president's supporters are still as supportive or whether they are upset by the president's attempt to be Bush III (other than giving tax breaks and other benefits to big business).

I suppose, if he wanted to be consistent, BBS could form another poll asking whether the president's detractors (e.g. Night Strike and Phatscottty) are now supportive of the president in his quest for Middle East domination.


How do you feel knowing that your president is as aggressive as Bush 2.0?


You're American, your president is Obama. I feel like we've had a climbdown from the topic title, and the poll that heads every page, to a more rational discussion. I don't think that I'm being unreasonable in seeing that as so.
the world is in greater peril from those who tolerate or encourage evil than from those who actually commit it- Albert Einstein
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