All your children belong to us!

[Lootifer]

Haha, i've had this same discussion with PS a couple of times now too.

We need to start capitalising or not capitalising the "c" in conservative to clarify if we are referring to the noun or the adjective.

[john9blue]

just say "republican" instead of capital c "Conservative", because that's usually what people who talk about CCC's are referring to. lower case c "conservative" is actually a noun as well.

[thegreekdog]

just say "republican" instead of capital c "Conservative", because that's usually what people who talk about CCC's are referring to. lower case c "conservative" is actually a noun as well.

I'm not Republican and some would call me Conservative.

[tzor]

Everything is both upper and lower case as a noun.

A "Republican" is a member of a political party.
A "republican" is a supporter of the republic. (Mike Church always likes to say "little 'r'" [r]epublican.)
A "Conservative" is a member of a political party (in New York).
A "conservative" is one who holds to a set of conservative principles. Not all conservatives are the same.

[Phatscotty]

When I see a Democrat astrology professor bashing Republicans and taking advantage of impressionable young minds, it really pisses me off. There are many people of all politics who believe they should try to brainwash children when they are young. Schools and Universities is where the Democrats go to do this. I have seen it time and time again personally, and many more times on video and audio and in articles and studies and books, not to mention the fact we know about the education system being the most Democrat dominated institution in America.

You can say all you want that 100% of Democrat professors and teachers do not try to brainwash children, I never said 100% of them do. You can say all you want that an overwhelming majority of Democrat teachers and professors do not try to brainwash children, I never said the overwhelming majority of them do.

You can't say that Democrat professors and teachers don't brainwash students, because it has happened. You can say that those professors and teachers brainwashing does not actually influence 100% of the time, I never said they did 100% of the time. But you can't say that it doesn't have any influence, because it does. Which is what I said.

Universities generally turn out Democrats, and it makes all the sense in the world. That is my opinion, and I have plenty of legitimate reasons and clear examples to show that it is true it happens, and shows how it happens. You can argue how much it happens and doesn't happen, but you can't say it doesn't happen.

[Lootifer]

lol >.<

I was referring to Conservative the political idealogy (I would be one of the people who might suggest tgd is somewhat Conservative in this respect).

I was also referring to conservative the behaviour which many people (typically Americans through no fault of their own - this is largely the fault of the Media) have forgotten the meaning of. I think I should start using the word traditional/traditionalist instead; might be clearer... For example, I am very much a Liberal from a political perspective, but in many many parts of my life I act very conservatively (e.g. I am very risk adverse).

[thegreekdog]

When I see a Democrat astrology professor bashing Republicans and taking advantage of impressionable young minds, it really pisses me off. There are many people of all politics who believe they should try to brainwash children when they are young. Schools and Universities is where the Democrats go to do this. I have seen it time and time again personally, and many more times on video and audio and in articles and studies and books, not to mention the fact we know about the education system being the most Democrat dominated institution in America.

You can say all you want that 100% of Democrat professors and teachers do not try to brainwash children, I never said 100% of them do. You can say all you want that an overwhelming majority of Democrat teachers and professors do not try to brainwash children, I never said the overwhelming majority of them do.

You can't say that Democrat professors and teachers don't brainwash students, because it has happened. You can say that those professors and teachers brainwashing does not actually influence 100% of the time, I never said they did 100% of the time. But you can't say that it doesn't have any influence, because it does. Which is what I said.

Universities generally turn out Democrats, and it makes all the sense in the world. That is my opinion, and I have plenty of legitimate reasons and clear examples to show that it is true it happens, and shows how it happens. You can argue how much it happens and doesn't happen, but you can't say it doesn't happen.

Astrology professor?

[Phatscotty]

When I see a Democrat astrology professor bashing Republicans and taking advantage of impressionable young minds, it really pisses me off. There are many people of all politics who believe they should try to brainwash children when they are young. Schools and Universities is where the Democrats go to do this. I have seen it time and time again personally, and many more times on video and audio and in articles and studies and books, not to mention the fact we know about the education system being the most Democrat dominated institution in America.

You can say all you want that 100% of Democrat professors and teachers do not try to brainwash children, I never said 100% of them do. You can say all you want that an overwhelming majority of Democrat teachers and professors do not try to brainwash children, I never said the overwhelming majority of them do.

You can't say that Democrat professors and teachers don't brainwash students, because it has happened. You can say that those professors and teachers brainwashing does not actually influence 100% of the time, I never said they did 100% of the time. But you can't say that it doesn't have any influence, because it does. Which is what I said.

Universities generally turn out Democrats, and it makes all the sense in the world. That is my opinion, and I have plenty of legitimate reasons and clear examples to show that it is true it happens, and shows how it happens. You can argue how much it happens and doesn't happen, but you can't say it doesn't happen.

Astrology professor?

Excuse me, Astronomy. Heck, the third biggest brainwasher I had in college was a Logic professor. He talked everyday about how God didn't exist, and that is where I learned the heirarchy of angels and where Cherub's go in that pecking order. I 'learned' a lot about the Bible in my Logic class.


Anyone remember how it feels with the teacher calling you out and the entire class looking at you and smiling and laughing and sneering and shaking their head? He lays the 'peer pressure' (to put it nicely) pretty heavy. Just look at this guy, he's pointing at the Conservatives as he tells them "the blood will be on YOUR hands" but the key here is he's not even looking at the Conservatives....he's looking at the Liberals and the Moderates as he is pointing and false guilting and mocking the Conservatives

[Metsfanmax]

Universities generally turn out Democrats, and it makes all the sense in the world. That is my opinion, and I have plenty of legitimate reasons and clear examples to show that it is true it happens, and shows how it happens. You can argue how much it happens and doesn't happen, but you can't say it doesn't happen.

Do you actually have any statistical evidence that going to college makes a person more likely to identify with the Democratic party?

Also: if you don't know the difference between astrology and astronomy, you never should have been accepted to college.

[Phatscotty]

Universities generally turn out Democrats, and it makes all the sense in the world. That is my opinion, and I have plenty of legitimate reasons and clear examples to show that it is true it happens, and shows how it happens. You can argue how much it happens and doesn't happen, but you can't say it doesn't happen.

Do you actually have any statistical evidence that going to college makes a person more likely to identify with the Democratic party?

Also: if you don't know the difference between astrology and astronomy, you never should have been accepted to college.

#1 I said it was my opinion

#2 Yes, there is evidence to back-up complete common sense, in this thread, in PDF form. I'm not going over all that again, but it's right here.

#3 I do know the difference between Astronomy and Astrology. If you would put on your thinking cap for one dang second, you might be able to understand that I wasn't trying to state the difference, I was trying to remember what kind of teacher it was in a link I shared 3 years ago. Pretty close eh?

#4 Would you mind opining (if you disagree with me) on why you think college does not make a person more likely to identify with the Democratic party?

[Metsfanmax]

Universities generally turn out Democrats, and it makes all the sense in the world. That is my opinion, and I have plenty of legitimate reasons and clear examples to show that it is true it happens, and shows how it happens. You can argue how much it happens and doesn't happen, but you can't say it doesn't happen.

Do you actually have any statistical evidence that going to college makes a person more likely to identify with the Democratic party?

Also: if you don't know the difference between astrology and astronomy, you never should have been accepted to college.

#1 I said it was my opinion

This is like Colbert parody. Whether or not universities are responsible for making people more likely to identify with the Democratic party is a question of fact, not opinion.

#2 Yes, there is evidence to back-up complete common sense, in this thread, in PDF form. I'm not going over all that again, but it's right here.

You provided an article saying that professors are likely to be liberal. That is not the same as saying college makes students more liberal.

#3 I do know the difference between Astronomy and Astrology. If you would put on your thinking cap for one dang second, you might be able to understand that I wasn't trying to state the difference, I was trying to remember what kind of teacher it was in a link I shared 3 years ago. Pretty close eh?

I'm perfectly happy to amend my statement to this: if you attended a college that actually offered an astrology course, then it explains pretty much everything about you.

#4 Would you mind letting us know why you think college does not make a person more likely to identify with the Democratic party?

Why yes I'd love to. I think this because people have actually answered this question and found that attending college does not substantially make one more likely to identify with the Democratic party.

[Phatscotty]

Well, in this thread, there is a study done by a self-described Progressive Liberal who also answered the question, and found that attending college does make students more Liberal. Yes, his study does conclude that they are not flaming Liberals, but it does conclude they are more Liberal.

LOL, not sure if you knew this or not, but your link is MY LINK! You didn't read it all though, did ya? I know that because I have read that article more than once, and all you did was take the New York Times headline and juxtapose that as the result.

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal

Quick question: It's been found that at certain colleges Liberal professors outnumber Conservative Professors sometimes 33-1, and in an extreme case out on the East Coast, one department was 49 Liberals to every Conservative. Tell us why those kind of ratios have zero impact as you suggest. Are Liberals really 100% efficient in keeping their politics out of the classroom?

Not touching your astrology statement - pure troll. I know what the difference is, and there are no points for you to score on the issue. I already told you I was just guessing the subject from a video 3 years ago. If you want to keep on accusing me of not know the difference between astronomy and astrology, then you want to keep up with the non-sequitors in public, see how much that says about ya.

[Metsfanmax]

Well, in this thread, there is a study done by a self-described Progressive Liberal who also answered the question, and found that attending college does make students more Liberal. Yes, his study does conclude that they are not flaming Liberals, but it does conclude they are more Liberal.

LOL, not sure if you knew this or not, but your link is MY LINK! You didn't read it all though, did ya?

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal

You're the one that didn't read all the way to the end (emphasis mine):

studies show that going to college does not make students substantially more liberal.

You could have guessed that this was coming if you had read the headline of that article.

Quick question: It's been found that at certain colleges Liberal professors outnumber Conservative Professors sometimes 33-1, and in an extreme case out on the East Coast, one department was 49 Liberals to every Conservative. Tell us why those kind of ratios have zero impact as you suggest. Are Liberals really 100% efficient in keeping their politics out of the classroom?

There are several possible reasons. One example is that there are a surprisingly large number of classes where politics doesn't actually enter into the discussion. You may not be aware of these, but they are there. Many of them are called science courses. Exactly zero of the courses I took in college had anything substantial to do with political affairs of the Democratic or Republican parties (the only thing that came close is my macroeconomics course).

Not touching your astrology statement - pure troll

It's actually pretty important for you to understand that approximately zero accredited colleges offer astrology. It substantially undermines your credibility to speak on the subject of what happens at universities if you don't actually know what's taught there.

[Phatscotty]

Well, in this thread, there is a study done by a self-described Progressive Liberal who also answered the question, and found that attending college does make students more Liberal. Yes, his study does conclude that they are not flaming Liberals, but it does conclude they are more Liberal.

LOL, not sure if you knew this or not, but your link is MY LINK! You didn't read it all though, did ya?

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal

You're the one that didn't read all the way to the end (emphasis mine):

studies show that going to college does not make students substantially more liberal.

You could have guessed that this was coming if you had read the headline of that article.

Quick question: It's been found that at certain colleges Liberal professors outnumber Conservative Professors sometimes 33-1, and in an extreme case out on the East Coast, one department was 49 Liberals to every Conservative. Tell us why those kind of ratios have zero impact as you suggest. Are Liberals really 100% efficient in keeping their politics out of the classroom?

There are several possible reasons. One example is that there are a surprisingly large number of classes where politics doesn't actually enter into the discussion. You may not be aware of these, but they are there. Many of them are called science courses. Exactly zero of the courses I took in college had anything substantial to do with political affairs of the Democratic or Republican parties (the only thing that came close is my macroeconomics course).

Not touching your astrology statement - pure troll

It's actually pretty important for you to understand that approximately zero accredited colleges offer astrology. It substantially undermines your credibility to speak on the subject of what happens at universities if you don't actually know what's taught there.

LMFAO METS! You're gettin way off course and trolling even deeper. You think I need to know astrology in order to identify an Astrology teacher politically bullying his students into Liberal positions? You are full of it here.

You think I haven't read the article to the end, even though I have been discussing that article for pages and pages? You are full of it again.

All your reasons you labeled are factored into the study. Why don't you take some time and see the results.

Bottom line, your article you shared to prove that college doesn't make students more Liberal, says right in it that college makes students more liberal. I did read the New York Times headline, but that's kind of like me using a FOX headline as proof of something, isn't it? And why judge a book by it's cover, or an article by it's headline? That's a no-no

I have hours logged listening to the authors interviews and reading PDF's and reading his articles and his studies he based his studies on. I know what his conclusion is. You should know that the New York Times is going to fluff it up and bend the politics their way. They are the evil-twin of FOX news ya know. I wouldn't use a headline from EITHER of them for anything. You might want to rediscover the importance of getting the information from the study, and not from the severely biased new york times interpretation of the story.

I also understand there are other studies out there that come to different conclusions, and I don't ignore those ones like you are ignoring this one. I just posted a study that backs up my opinion.

[Metsfanmax]

Bottom line, your article you shared to prove that college doesn't make students more Liberal, says right in it that college makes students more liberal. I did read the New York Times headline, but that's kind of like me using a FOX headline as proof of something, isn't it? And why judge a book by it's cover, or an article by it's headline? That's a no-no

No, it explicitly says college does not make students more liberal. I even quoted the portion of the article where it says exactly that. If you think that the statement "young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal" means that college makes people more liberal, then you should probably also think that shopping at Wal-Mart is is what makes people poor.

They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left — but that these changes were in line with shifts experienced by most Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 during the same period of time.

I am quite honestly not going to continue this discussion until you recognize that not only does the article say "studies show that going to college does not make students substantially more liberal," but in fact that this is the main point of the article.

Met's, you are seriously outgunned on this one. I have hours logged listening to the authors interviews and reading PDF's and reading his articles and his studies he based his studies on. I know what his conclusion is. You should know that the New York Times is going to fluff it up and bend the politics their way. They are the evil-twin of FOX news ya know. I wouldn't use a headline from EITHER of them for anything.

I find it somehow hard to accept that I am "outgunned" by someone who claims to have taken an astrology course in college and who does not seem to be able to parse a basic summary of a journal article (if you don't trust the NYT to get it right, you're perfectly willing to read it yourself).

I also understand there are other studies out there that come to different conclusions, and I don't ignore those ones like you are ignoring this one. I just posted a study that backs up my opinion.

The study in the OP doesn't actually say anything about whether college makes students more liberal, so why do you keep bringing it up for this discussion?

[Phatscotty]

You brought it up, it's from your link, as you damn well know, unless you still didn't read it. Here.

THE Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum recently called President Obama a “snob” for supporting higher education for all Americans. “There are good, decent men and women,” he said, “who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them.” He also called colleges and universities “indoctrination mills” for godless liberalism.

But is this true? Does attending college actually make you more liberal and less religious? Research indicates that the answer is: not so much.

It’s certainly true that professors are a liberal lot and that religious skepticism is common in the academy. In a survey of more than 1,400 professors that the sociologist Solon Simmons and I conducted in 2006, covering academics in nearly all fields and in institutions ranging from community colleges to elite universities, we found that about half of the professors identified as liberal, as compared to just one in five Americans over all. In the social sciences, humanities and natural sciences, Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents outnumbered Republicans by a wide margin; among social scientists, for example, there were 10 Democrats for every Republican. Though a majority of professors said that they believed in God, 20 percent were atheists or agnostics — compared with just 4 percent in the general population.

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal and to hold more liberal attitudes on social issues than their non-college-educated peers.

But contrary to conservative rhetoric, studies show that going to college does not make students substantially more liberal. The political scientist Mack Mariani and the higher education researcher Gordon Hewitt analyzed changes in student political attitudes between their freshman and senior years at 38 colleges and universities from 1999 to 2003. They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left — but that these changes were in line with shifts experienced by most Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 during the same period of time. In addition, they found that students were no more likely to move left at schools with more liberal faculties.

Similarly, the political scientists M. Kent Jennings and Laura Stoker analyzed data from a survey that tracked the political attitudes of about 1,000 high school students through their college years and into middle age. Their research found that the tendency of college graduates to be more liberal reflects to a large extent the fact that more liberal students are more likely to go to college in the first place.

Studies also show that attending college does not make you less religious. The sociologists Jeremy Uecker, Mark Regnerus and Margaret Vaaler examined data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health and found that Americans who pursued bachelor’s degrees were more likely to retain their faith than those who did not, perhaps because life at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder can be rough in ways that chip away at religious belief and participation. They report that students “who did not attend college and two-year college students are much more likely — 61 and 54 percent more, respectively — than four-year college students to relinquish their religious affiliations.”

So why do conservatives persist in attacking higher education? There’s no doubt that in terms of overall curricular content and campus culture, most colleges and universities do skew more to the left than to the right. And research by the sociologists Amy Binder and Kate Wood confirms that this can be a frustrating and alienating experience for conservative students, even if it’s not serving to indoctrinate anyone.

But that alone doesn’t explain the intensity of the animus. Doing so requires some historical perspective. Conservatives have been criticizing academia for many decades. Yet only once the McCarthy era passed did this criticism begin to be cast primarily in anti-elitist tones: charges of Communist subversion gave way to charges of liberal elitism in the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. and others. The idea that professors are snobs looking down their noses at ordinary Americans, trying to push the country in directions it does not wish to go, soon became an established conservative trope, taking its place alongside criticism of the liberal press and the liberal judiciary.

The main reason for this development is that attacking liberal professors as elitists serves a vital purpose. It helps position the conservative movement as a populist enterprise by identifying a predatory elite to which conservatism stands opposed — an otherwise difficult task for a movement strongly backed by holders of economic power.

Neil Gross, a professor of sociology at the University of British Columbia, is working on a book about the politics of academia.

[Metsfanmax]

You brought it up, it's from your link, as you damn well know, unless you still didn't read it. Here. Why are you acting so stupid?

THE Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum recently called President Obama a “snob” for supporting higher education for all Americans. “There are good, decent men and women,” he said, “who go out and work hard every day and put their skills to test that aren’t taught by some liberal college professor trying to indoctrinate them.” He also called colleges and universities “indoctrination mills” for godless liberalism.

But is this true? Does attending college actually make you more liberal and less religious? Research indicates that the answer is: not so much.

It’s certainly true that professors are a liberal lot and that religious skepticism is common in the academy. In a survey of more than 1,400 professors that the sociologist Solon Simmons and I conducted in 2006, covering academics in nearly all fields and in institutions ranging from community colleges to elite universities, we found that about half of the professors identified as liberal, as compared to just one in five Americans over all. In the social sciences, humanities and natural sciences, Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents outnumbered Republicans by a wide margin; among social scientists, for example, there were 10 Democrats for every Republican. Though a majority of professors said that they believed in God, 20 percent were atheists or agnostics — compared with just 4 percent in the general population.

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal and to hold more liberal attitudes on social issues than their non-college-educated peers.

But contrary to conservative rhetoric, studies show that going to college does not make students substantially more liberal. The political scientist Mack Mariani and the higher education researcher Gordon Hewitt analyzed changes in student political attitudes between their freshman and senior years at 38 colleges and universities from 1999 to 2003. They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left — but that these changes were in line with shifts experienced by most Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 during the same period of time. In addition, they found that students were no more likely to move left at schools with more liberal faculties.

Similarly, the political scientists M. Kent Jennings and Laura Stoker analyzed data from a survey that tracked the political attitudes of about 1,000 high school students through their college years and into middle age. Their research found that the tendency of college graduates to be more liberal reflects to a large extent the fact that more liberal students are more likely to go to college in the first place.

Studies also show that attending college does not make you less religious. The sociologists Jeremy Uecker, Mark Regnerus and Margaret Vaaler examined data from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health and found that Americans who pursued bachelor’s degrees were more likely to retain their faith than those who did not, perhaps because life at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder can be rough in ways that chip away at religious belief and participation. They report that students “who did not attend college and two-year college students are much more likely — 61 and 54 percent more, respectively — than four-year college students to relinquish their religious affiliations.”

So why do conservatives persist in attacking higher education? There’s no doubt that in terms of overall curricular content and campus culture, most colleges and universities do skew more to the left than to the right. And research by the sociologists Amy Binder and Kate Wood confirms that this can be a frustrating and alienating experience for conservative students, even if it’s not serving to indoctrinate anyone.

But that alone doesn’t explain the intensity of the animus. Doing so requires some historical perspective. Conservatives have been criticizing academia for many decades. Yet only once the McCarthy era passed did this criticism begin to be cast primarily in anti-elitist tones: charges of Communist subversion gave way to charges of liberal elitism in the writings of William F. Buckley Jr. and others. The idea that professors are snobs looking down their noses at ordinary Americans, trying to push the country in directions it does not wish to go, soon became an established conservative trope, taking its place alongside criticism of the liberal press and the liberal judiciary.

The main reason for this development is that attacking liberal professors as elitists serves a vital purpose. It helps position the conservative movement as a populist enterprise by identifying a predatory elite to which conservatism stands opposed — an otherwise difficult task for a movement strongly backed by holders of economic power.

Neil Gross, a professor of sociology at the University of British Columbia, is working on a book about the politics of academia.

I take it your astrology professor didn't teach you much about reading comprehension.

[Phatscotty]

I find it somehow hard to accept that I am "outgunned" by someone who claims to have taken an astrology course in college and who does not seem to be able to parse a basic summary of a journal article (if you don't trust the NYT to get it right, you're perfectly willing to read it yourself).

Well, I never claimed that, so you are trying hard to accept that based on you own imaginary premise. Or else you are trolling out of control.

Your article says right in it college makes students more Liberal. It's not my fault you proved yourself wrong.

[Lootifer]

They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left — but that these changes were in line with shifts experienced by most Americans between the ages of 18 and 24 during the same period of time. In addition, they found that students were no more likely to move left at schools with more liberal faculties.

Thats prob why

[Phatscotty]

It’s also true that young college graduates are somewhat more likely to identify as liberal and to hold more liberal attitudes

But contrary to conservative rhetoric, studies show that going to college does not make students substantially more liberal.

So, finally, you are pointing out to me that college makes students Liberal, just not substantially. So let's settle this

Is "somewhat more Liberal, but not substantially"

a) more Liberal
b) less Liberal

[Metsfanmax]

This is another reading comprehension issue. The article claims that studies show that college does not make students substantially more liberal. That doesn't mean it makes students "somewhat" more liberal. It could mean that students are not at all affected, or even that they're more likely to be conservative as a result of college. There's literally no way for you to know what the actual result is since you didn't read the linked study -- the only thing you know is that they're not "substantially" more liberal. Which I can only assume is what you expected given your 49:1 ratio.

[Lootifer]

Students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Non-students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Hypothesis test for: Is there left indoctrination occurring within College. Answer: No.

[BigBallinStalin]

Students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Non-students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Hypothesis test for: Is there left indoctrination occurring within College. Answer: No.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phatscotty]

Students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Non-students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Hypothesis test for: Is there left indoctrination occurring within College. Answer: No.

therefore a 49-1 Liberal to Conservative professor ratio has zero influence.

Niel Gross asked a lot more specific question in this study: his answer: yes.

Hmm, what to do now?

p.s. I don't ignore your study or other studies or try to pick them apart. Do you ignore this study because it has a different answer?

[Phatscotty]

Students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Non-students become more liberal between the ages of 18 and 24.

Hypothesis test for: Is there left indoctrination occurring within College. Answer: No.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe one day when I pull stuff straight outta my butt you will let me off the hook as easily.

I remember a few pages ago you were challenging me to give you the answer to what the self described Progressive Liberal's definition of Liberal was.

heh