All your children belong to us!

[Metsfanmax]

This is the NYT piece:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/opini ... beral.html

This is the journal article Mr. Gross is referring to:

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2 ... 2717011231

I can't openly post a link to a PDF copy of the full article though.

So you guys do agree that Universities are dominated by Liberals, right? Not about why or why not or any of that, just the simple fact. Agree?

I don't know that "liberal" is the correct term. Studies like the one above typically ask people whether they think they're on the "left" or "right," which may differ from liberal or conservative depending on who you ask. But yes, I don't think there's any question that university faculty members are much more likely to identify with liberal ideas than conservative ones.

[Phatscotty]

I will read your links tomorrow I have to crash, but just a follow up question.

so the Liberals have an immense amount of power over what students see, hear, think, and say. And they do not use that power? Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

[crispybits]

But the point is that it doesn't matter what you or I or anyone else THINKS they do, what matters is what they ACTUALLY do, and the study being discussed is quite clear in it's conclusion that they don't actually do much of anything (isolated cases aside). That's why wider studies take place and we don't rely purely on rhetoric and extrapolation to work out what goes on (in any walk of life, not just re this subject)

[Lootifer]

Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

I would pass that chance up, but im a weirdo

Also remember PS, very few schools at college actually address politics in their syllabus, and if they do they have to be very careful as there is undoubtedly some libtard or conservatard filming them ready to be famous on youtube (pretty sure many of those guys extremists you linked have little chances of succeeding career-wise).

Science, Engineering, Finance, Law, Medicine and many others don't deal with politics and in the rare situations they do (say macro-economics) any teacher worth listening to should always present the content with no bias (even if the content is bias).

[Metsfanmax]

I will read your links tomorrow I have to crash, but just a follow up question.

so the Liberals have an immense amount of power over what students see, hear, think, and say. And they do not use that power? Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

The data doesn't necessarily imply that liberal or conservative teachers don't ever try to influence the political views of their students (though, as Lootifer and I have pointed out, they really don't when it comes to courses that don't have explicit political content). It does imply is that if the professors are trying it, they're not being successful. If they are trying it, it might just mean that teenagers are set in their views and aren't going to change just because of what their professor thinks.

[thegreekdog]

OH, THREE ANTI-PHATSCOTTY SMACKDOWNS IN THREE MINUTES!!!! OHHHHH!!!!!

Hey guys - I covered this with PS earlier in this thread.

I refer you to:

You've actually shown no evidence at all. You linked to a study (that, incidentally, you didn't read). Further, the conclusion you provided doesn't actually prove your point.

Students do become Liberal/more Liberal (although he finds it's not substantial, he does find it's true)

Your point (provided in the other thread) and the point of conservatives who believe in university liberal indoctrination, is that such influence is pervasive and effective in indoctrinating students to the liberal persuasion.

But let's look at this dude's study. Did you read the PDF? Do you know what it says? Before you have a chance to go back and read it, it doesn't say anything about the influence professors have over students; rather, it merely discusses the views of professors taking the survey.

In sum, you've provided no proof of any position except that more college professors are liberal than conservative (although the highest percentage is moderate). Your point from the other thread is not any more valid because of the PDF you provided here and the conclusion the professor provided (above) also doesn't help your position.

So, again, spend less time trying to figure out if I'm a stalker who lacks credibility and more time reading your supposed support and thinking about how that supposed support actually helps (or in this case, doesn't help) your position.[/quote]

I normally hate parsing out posts, but I'm going to do it here.

Greek, I notice you keep going on about "indoctrination", and that's fine. I just want to make sure we both understand, that is an opinion and it falls into the "how and why" it is that students leave college Liberal/more Liberal.

Do you have an opinion as to how or why it is students leave college more Liberal? Or do you disagree with that altogether?

I don't know because you haven't provided any evidence of whether students leave college more or less liberal. You keep referring to videos and books, but all you've done from an evidence perspective is post a PDF of a study that shows that there are more liberal professors than conservative professors.

I'm also waiting for an apology (especially considering I read that 76-page PDF looking for any evidence of the students being more liberal point). You haven't shown evidence of any of your points (in this thread). And the indoctrination point is from the other thread that you posted in. If you've changed your mind about that point of view, please do tell.

I have not changed my mind. There are college professors who do in fact make it their life mission to indoctrinate as many students as possible. There is indoctrination. I have witnessed it and one time went along with it for the grade and another time I didn't. But, of course that isn't true for every single person, or every single professor.

And this is anecdotal evidence that others have provided. I've provided anecdotal evidence from law school, for example. You have NOT provided any link to any study showing that this has been proven.

The only thing I missed in making the overall point "College turns out Liberals" is leave out a key phrase.

"Indoctrination.....amongst other things"

The evidence I guess you are ignoring at this point was done in a survey that tracked college Freshman until their senior year. It found Students are overall more Liberal in their senior year. If that isn't a piece of evidence, then what is it?

I have an idea. Why don't you attempt to talk about this, and not about me.

The political scientist Mack Mariani and the higher education researcher Gordon Hewitt analyzed changes in student political attitudes between their freshman and senior years at 38 colleges and universities from 1999 to 2003. They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left

I think you are confusing the term "evidence" with the phrase "what Phatscotty posted." For the fourth (?) time here, I'm going to state that you did not provide evidence... no study, no link to a study, no video, no link to a video... indicating that a survey was done of college freshmen finding that students are overall more liberal in their senior year. You've merely said it was done. That's not enough for me. I need to be able to read the study to determine whether there are any flaws in it. For example, if the study exists, did the study asks respondents why they are more liberal? As another example, if the study exists, how many students were polled? As a third example, did the study answer the question of why there are conservatives who aren't swayed by liberal professores?

In order to adequately and accurately determine whether the conclusion has merit, I need the evidence. You haven't provided it, despite your many posts in this thread. I'm not just going to take your quoted language above and try to make an argument. I've already stated that "on average, students shifted somewhat to the left" is not really evidence supporting your rather strong indoctrination theories from the other thread. First, it's a conclusion. Second, it doesn't support your argument at all; if anything, it tells me that we shouldn't really care all that much if students shifted "somewhat to the left" "on average." Which reinforces my theory that this is all paranoid nonsense.

p.s. At least you admit that there are more Liberal professors than Conservatives. Now, if you can understand it's more like 10-1 in certain areas, and even as high as 33 Liberals for every 1 Conservative, we can stop trying to minimize the truth into "okay, so there are a couple more Liberal professors than Conservative professors"

I think "admit" is the wrong word. I held no conclusion or theory one way or another on what political persuasion professors are. Based on anecdotal evidence (my own), I found that I could not determine most of my professors' political affiliations, but where I could, they was a smattering of liberal and conservative. Also based on anecdotal evidence (again my own), I found that most of my law school professors were liberal. That's all been posted in this thread.

So, I read the study you linked to (the 76 page PDF). It survey more than 1,000 professors and asked them their political views. The result was that more were liberal than conservative (although more were moderate than liberal).

so let me summarize your point as I understand it. "18 year olds enter the most Liberal dominated institutions in America, stay there for 4 years, but that has no influence on 18 and 19 and 20 year olds"

See above in this post where I ased this question - Why are students more liberal? Is it because of their professors? Is it because of their peers? Is it because they want to bang strangers and experiment with illegal drugs?

I'll summarize my points for you (since you did a bad job):

(1) The study shows that more professors are liberal than conservative by a wide margin;
(2) You've provided no evidence showing that on average students are slightly more liberal (you posted the conclusion... not evidence);
(3) Your theory in the other thread about indoctrination is not supported by evidence.
(4) Your theory in the other thread about indoctrination is not supported by the conclusion (i.e. (2)) that you've provided.
(5) The conclusion you posed "somewhat more liberal on average" makes me think I shouldn't care about this issue.
(6) Anecdotally, my own experience has led me to conclude that the classes I attended in college were taught by professors that I could not classify politically and that classes I attended in law school were taught by liberal professors.
(7) Anecdotally, the liberal professors in law school had no effect on political persuasions of the students.

[thegreekdog]

I will read your links tomorrow I have to crash, but just a follow up question.

so the Liberals have an immense amount of power over what students see, hear, think, and say. And they do not use that power? Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

Just a point of emphasis: according to the study you provided on page one, liberal professors do not dominate post-secondary education (moderates are the highest percentage).

But if we're going to ignore evidence some more, if colleges make students more liberal, why are there college-educated people who are conservative? You don't have any evidence (see above) (except anecdotal) and your theory doesn't make sense given the political results in the United States.

I wonder how many people who did not attend college are liberal? Here's some preliminary data from the 2012 election (won handily by President Obama):

http://www.cnn.com/election/2012/result ... exit-polls

Vote by Education

High school graduate - 51% Democrat, 48% Republican
Some college - 49% Democrat, 48% Republican
College graduate - 47% Democrat, 51% Republican
Postgraduate - 55% Democrat, 42% Republican

How do you explain these results and your theory?

[Phatscotty]

OH, THREE ANTI-PHATSCOTTY SMACKDOWNS IN THREE MINUTES!!!! OHHHHH!!!!!

Hey guys - I covered this with PS earlier in this thread.

I refer you to:

You've actually shown no evidence at all. You linked to a study (that, incidentally, you didn't read). Further, the conclusion you provided doesn't actually prove your point.

Students do become Liberal/more Liberal (although he finds it's not substantial, he does find it's true)

Your point (provided in the other thread) and the point of conservatives who believe in university liberal indoctrination, is that such influence is pervasive and effective in indoctrinating students to the liberal persuasion.

But let's look at this dude's study. Did you read the PDF? Do you know what it says? Before you have a chance to go back and read it, it doesn't say anything about the influence professors have over students; rather, it merely discusses the views of professors taking the survey.

In sum, you've provided no proof of any position except that more college professors are liberal than conservative (although the highest percentage is moderate). Your point from the other thread is not any more valid because of the PDF you provided here and the conclusion the professor provided (above) also doesn't help your position.

So, again, spend less time trying to figure out if I'm a stalker who lacks credibility and more time reading your supposed support and thinking about how that supposed support actually helps (or in this case, doesn't help) your position.

I normally hate parsing out posts, but I'm going to do it here.

Greek, I notice you keep going on about "indoctrination", and that's fine. I just want to make sure we both understand, that is an opinion and it falls into the "how and why" it is that students leave college Liberal/more Liberal.

Do you have an opinion as to how or why it is students leave college more Liberal? Or do you disagree with that altogether?

I don't know because you haven't provided any evidence of whether students leave college more or less liberal. You keep referring to videos and books, but all you've done from an evidence perspective is post a PDF of a study that shows that there are more liberal professors than conservative professors.

I'm also waiting for an apology (especially considering I read that 76-page PDF looking for any evidence of the students being more liberal point). You haven't shown evidence of any of your points (in this thread). And the indoctrination point is from the other thread that you posted in. If you've changed your mind about that point of view, please do tell.

I have not changed my mind. There are college professors who do in fact make it their life mission to indoctrinate as many students as possible. There is indoctrination. I have witnessed it and one time went along with it for the grade and another time I didn't. But, of course that isn't true for every single person, or every single professor.

And this is anecdotal evidence that others have provided. I've provided anecdotal evidence from law school, for example. You have NOT provided any link to any study showing that this has been proven.

The only thing I missed in making the overall point "College turns out Liberals" is leave out a key phrase.

"Indoctrination.....amongst other things"

The evidence I guess you are ignoring at this point was done in a survey that tracked college Freshman until their senior year. It found Students are overall more Liberal in their senior year. If that isn't a piece of evidence, then what is it?

I have an idea. Why don't you attempt to talk about this, and not about me.

The political scientist Mack Mariani and the higher education researcher Gordon Hewitt analyzed changes in student political attitudes between their freshman and senior years at 38 colleges and universities from 1999 to 2003. They found that on average, students shifted somewhat to the left

I think you are confusing the term "evidence" with the phrase "what Phatscotty posted." For the fourth (?) time here, I'm going to state that you did not provide evidence... no study, no link to a study, no video, no link to a video... indicating that a survey was done of college freshmen finding that students are overall more liberal in their senior year. You've merely said it was done. That's not enough for me. I need to be able to read the study to determine whether there are any flaws in it. For example, if the study exists, did the study asks respondents why they are more liberal? As another example, if the study exists, how many students were polled? As a third example, did the study answer the question of why there are conservatives who aren't swayed by liberal professores?

In order to adequately and accurately determine whether the conclusion has merit, I need the evidence. You haven't provided it, despite your many posts in this thread. I'm not just going to take your quoted language above and try to make an argument. I've already stated that "on average, students shifted somewhat to the left" is not really evidence supporting your rather strong indoctrination theories from the other thread. First, it's a conclusion. Second, it doesn't support your argument at all; if anything, it tells me that we shouldn't really care all that much if students shifted "somewhat to the left" "on average." Which reinforces my theory that this is all paranoid nonsense.

p.s. At least you admit that there are more Liberal professors than Conservatives. Now, if you can understand it's more like 10-1 in certain areas, and even as high as 33 Liberals for every 1 Conservative, we can stop trying to minimize the truth into "okay, so there are a couple more Liberal professors than Conservative professors"

I think "admit" is the wrong word. I held no conclusion or theory one way or another on what political persuasion professors are. Based on anecdotal evidence (my own), I found that I could not determine most of my professors' political affiliations, but where I could, they was a smattering of liberal and conservative. Also based on anecdotal evidence (again my own), I found that most of my law school professors were liberal. That's all been posted in this thread.

So, I read the study you linked to (the 76 page PDF). It survey more than 1,000 professors and asked them their political views. The result was that more were liberal than conservative (although more were moderate than liberal).

so let me summarize your point as I understand it. "18 year olds enter the most Liberal dominated institutions in America, stay there for 4 years, but that has no influence on 18 and 19 and 20 year olds"

See above in this post where I ased this question - Why are students more liberal? Is it because of their professors? Is it because of their peers? Is it because they want to bang strangers and experiment with illegal drugs?

I'll summarize my points for you (since you did a bad job):

(1) The study shows that more professors are liberal than conservative by a wide margin;
(2) You've provided no evidence showing that on average students are slightly more liberal (you posted the conclusion... not evidence);
(3) Your theory in the other thread about indoctrination is not supported by evidence.
(4) Your theory in the other thread about indoctrination is not supported by the conclusion (i.e. (2)) that you've provided.
(5) The conclusion you posed "somewhat more liberal on average" makes me think I shouldn't care about this issue.
(6) Anecdotally, my own experience has led me to conclude that the classes I attended in college were taught by professors that I could not classify politically and that classes I attended in law school were taught by liberal professors.
(7) Anecdotally, the liberal professors in law school had no effect on political persuasions of the students.

[/quote]

This isn't about indoctrination, like I told you at least 5 times already, so you are still just wasting a bunch of time. What I am looking for is evidence from you that colleges do not teach students Liberalism, and that colleges do not have an impact on students becoming more Liberal.

The truth about education and the Liberal impact on it has nothing to do with what I bring up or what I don't bring up, and it's completely foolish for you to act that way. The truth is the truth. I have seen the truth myself, I know other people who have seen it themselves. For the most part, everyone I know had at least 1 Liberal professor in college who tried to push their politics on the entire classroom. and really, that's all it takes, is 1 Liberal professor at every University. But the truth is that there are over 20 liberals for each Conservative on average. So things are not really leading to colleges turning out Conservative students.

The entire purpose of this thread, for the 5th time, is to focus on 1 aspect, 1 piece of the puzzle. That one piece being students who attend daily, for 4 years, an institution that is the most Liberal dominated institution in America, teaches students to be Liberal/more Liberal.

Greekdog, look at all the things you have to ignore to take your position.

1) It's in Liberal professors best monetary interests to do what they can to push Liberalism on students as much as possible.
2) It's in Liberal professors best national interests to do what they can to push Liberalism on students as much as possible
3) It's in Liberal professors best interests to do what they can to mock, misrepresent, and lie about Conservatism
4) You have to ignore all the examples of Liberal professors doing exactly what you say they are not doing. But you see them doing it, don't you? You can say like Mets, they are just isolated instances. When do they stop being isolated instances and become something more? After 100 examples? 1000? And those are only the ones that are caught on camera. We can easily assume that for every 1 Liberal professors attempting to bully the young students into Liberal positions, there is at least 1 more Liberal professor who is doing it but isn't caught on tape, and it's probably more like 5 to 1.
5) There is hardly even a Conservative presence on campus, so it's pretty hard for you to make the argument (not that you have, but you are supposed to be able to) that Conservatism is even represented, and represented correctly at that.

The problem with what you keep asking is you know an answer cannot be found, and I have even said that this is impossible to prove, and we can only break it down to what is likely and what is unlikely.

See above in this post where I ased this question - Why are students more liberal? Is it because of their professors? Is it because of their peers? Is it because they want to bang strangers and experiment with illegal drugs?

There are a lot of reasons why. But, again for the 5th time, so long as you backtrack and admit that students become more Liberal (which is my theory), THEN we can start looking at the reasons why, and THAT is what the PDF on the OP mostly deals with. And if you want to make the case that in areas where there are 49 Liberal professors for each 1 Conservative professor, and you want to make a case that THAT has nothing whatsoever to do with why it is students become more Liberal, that will be entertaining. Just to be clear, I'm asking you to back up how you can say the # unbelievably over-represented Liberal professors has no impact on students becoming more Liberal.

[Phatscotty]

I will read your links tomorrow I have to crash, but just a follow up question.

so the Liberals have an immense amount of power over what students see, hear, think, and say. And they do not use that power? Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

Just a point of emphasis: according to the study you provided on page one, liberal professors do not dominate post-secondary education (moderates are the highest percentage).

But if we're going to ignore evidence some more, if colleges make students more liberal, why are there college-educated people who are conservative? You don't have any evidence (see above) (except anecdotal) and your theory doesn't make sense given the political results in the United States.

I wonder how many people who did not attend college are liberal? Here's some preliminary data from the 2012 election (won handily by President Obama):

http://www.cnn.com/election/2012/result ... exit-polls

Vote by Education

High school graduate - 51% Democrat, 48% Republican
Some college - 49% Democrat, 48% Republican
College graduate - 47% Democrat, 51% Republican
Postgraduate - 55% Democrat, 42% Republican

How do you explain these results and your theory?

That only deals with 1 part of my theory, that being, the more college a person attends, the more Liberal they become. There are only a couple % points difference in highschool-college, most definitely within the margin of error, but the post graduate finding is clear, and backs up my theory.

[Teflon Kris]

If a 'liberal' position does not challenge the status quo, then are you saying that 'liberal' is actually 'conservative'?

For example, a (welfare) liberal stance supports further welfare programs. Welfare programs are part of the status quo of the USG. Therefore, that 'liberal' is actually conservative.

Your welfare is probably about 1% of what welfare could be. Both your liberals and conservatives are conservative on this issue (so you are almost right) - they either want a minor tweak from 1% to 0.1%, or stick at 1% current status quo.

Your thing has a very narrow political perspective (as does the 51st state thing). Liberals are just wet lettuces, they daredn't follow their heart properly and perpetually submit to the blue meanies with pathetic compromises.

[Phatscotty]

Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

I would pass that chance up, but im a weirdo

Also remember PS, very few schools at college actually address politics in their syllabus, and if they do they have to be very careful as there is undoubtedly some libtard or conservatard filming them ready to be famous on youtube (pretty sure many of those guys extremists you linked have little chances of succeeding career-wise).

Science, Engineering, Finance, Law, Medicine and many others don't deal with politics and in the rare situations they do (say macro-economics) any teacher worth listening to should always present the content with no bias (even if the content is bias).

Maybe you do have a heart of gold!

Why would you try to make the case that everything a professor says or does would be foreshadowed in the syllabus? And you are wrong about them worrying about becoming famous. Do you remember the "stomp on Jesus" professor? The school tried to defend him at first, even though it was on camera. And I don't blame them because they are used to Conservatives just dealing with it and not fighting back. But this time and from now on we are fighting back, and it took a little while but eventually the stomp on Jesus professor was reprimanded. And then there is the "stomp on American flag" professor, who was defended. I see what you are saying there and it has some credence, but I don't think they are as worried about it as you are. If they were that worried, they would be doing something like stop shunning Conservative professors in an attempt to make their faculty a bit more fair and balanced, as opposed to completely lopsided into the most Liberal dominated institution in America. and I think the stomp Jesus guy was promoted after he got back. not within the school system, but he got a much better job at some 'officially' trying to turn people into Liberals.

You are right at face value, those subjects you named do not any reason for politics to be in the subject matter. But that doesn't mean that they aren't. My biggest brainwashers were Logic and English composition, they also have no reason to deal with politics, but we had politics and religion crammed down our throats over 90% of the time, and that is the honest truth. The English professor was probably more like 95%+ and he also taught a few other subjects. But you are assuming far too much about those professors, as you have no idea how they teach their class. Your point that those subjects do not require politics to learn about them is true, but the assumption that because politics are not needed means there are no politics is a wild assumption. btw, the only known Conservative professor I had has macro.

[Phatscotty]

I mean, everyone I know that went to college has a story about a Liberal professor trying to bully the class. I really did think that more people around here would chime in and tell us about their experiences. I will ask for it

[Metsfanmax]

Greekdog, look at all the things you have to ignore to take your position.

1) It's in Liberal professors best monetary interests to do what they can to push Liberalism on students as much as possible.
2) It's in Liberal professors best national interests to do what they can to push Liberalism on students as much as possible
3) It's in Liberal professors best interests to do what they can to mock, misrepresent, and lie about Conservatism
4) You have to ignore all the examples of Liberal professors doing exactly what you say they are not doing. But you see them doing it, don't you? You can say like Mets, they are just isolated instances. When do they stop being isolated instances and become something more? After 100 examples? 1000? And those are only the ones that are caught on camera. We can easily assume that for every 1 Liberal professors attempting to bully the young students into Liberal positions, there is at least 1 more Liberal professor who is doing it but isn't caught on tape, and it's probably more like 5 to 1.
5) There is hardly even a Conservative presence on campus, so it's pretty hard for you to make the argument (not that you have, but you are supposed to be able to) that Conservatism is even represented, and represented correctly at that.

On the other hand, you have to ignore reality to take your position. Despite all of your arguments, reality does not work how you think it must, as evidenced by the study we discussed. So what are you going to do -- dig in and deny the actual truth because it doesn't reflect your intuition, or accept that there are things you didn't consider?

[Phatscotty]

OH, THREE ANTI-PHATSCOTTY SMACKDOWNS IN THREE MINUTES!!!! OHHHHH!!!!!

Hey guys - I covered this with PS earlier in this thread.

No, you didn't. You are just covering how you are trying to turn this into something it isn't. This thread is not about indoctrination.

[tzor]

When I see a Democrat astrology professor bashing Republicans and taking advantage of impressionable young minds, it really pisses me off.

I'm sorry, you lost me at "astrology." Then you combined it with "professor" ...

Don't even get to the Democrat or the Republican bashing ... That's a intellectual virus in and of itself ... and should be isolated from anyone under the age of 25.

What's next? Flat earth professor?

[tzor]

Anyway, time for my general theory of everything. One of the problems in many institutions of higher learning is the "bubble boy" environment. Many disciplines are so caught up in the internal world of higher education that they never actually go out into the real world and put their ideas to the test. Why the whole idea of "peer review" is nothing but a good old boys system. Who reviews the peers? Why the peers themselves! Without ever having to "prove" their ideas in the real world, they "progress" to ever higher liberal states.

While those who get out of Plato's cave of education and actually have to "prove" their ideas in the real world "progress" to more efficient states (or become flat out broke) and become more and more conservative in the process.

[Phatscotty]

I will read your links tomorrow I have to crash, but just a follow up question.

so the Liberals have an immense amount of power over what students see, hear, think, and say. And they do not use that power? Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

The data doesn't necessarily imply that liberal or conservative teachers don't ever try to influence the political views of their students (though, as Lootifer and I have pointed out, they really don't when it comes to courses that don't have explicit political content). It does imply is that if the professors are trying it, they're not being successful. If they are trying it, it might just mean that teenagers are set in their views and aren't going to change just because of what their professor thinks.

of course it doesn't. The data is simply unable to know what is in Liberal professor's hearts, and is unable to know if the professors are being truthful. But did I hear you right? Liberals have a heart of gold and just don't try to influence politics? Even though their paychecks depend on politics? their employment future? When evil Republicans make a cut to the school budget...Liberals teachers don't explode? I don't buy it for a second, I have witnessed personally the opposite far too many times.

And you are taking Lootifer's assumption (which is based on???) as the truth? You guys saying Liberal professors do not try to influence political views is exactly the same as me saying they do, which will get Greekdog and BBS all over your ass. Oh wait probably not.

You also falsely assume that professors stick to the syllabus 100%. Does the syllabus for any class say that it's gonna skip chapter 2-5, chapter 7, and 11? But in almost every class I have had, chapters are skipped.

If a teenager is set in their views, then a professor cannot change a students views? That's one hell of a statement!

Do you have any better assumptions than:
-"if its not in the syllabus, it isn't mentioned"
-"professors don't talk about politics"
-"teenagers already have everything figured out"

[Phatscotty]

When I see a Democrat astrology professor bashing Republicans and taking advantage of impressionable young minds, it really pisses me off.

I'm sorry, you lost me at "astrology." Then you combined it with "professor" ...

Don't even get to the Democrat or the Republican bashing ... That's a intellectual virus in and of itself ... and should be isolated from anyone under the age of 25.

What's next? Flat earth professor?

pretty good observation. Turns out he wasn't teaching astrology at all!

[Metsfanmax]

I will read your links tomorrow I have to crash, but just a follow up question.

so the Liberals have an immense amount of power over what students see, hear, think, and say. And they do not use that power? Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

The data doesn't necessarily imply that liberal or conservative teachers don't ever try to influence the political views of their students (though, as Lootifer and I have pointed out, they really don't when it comes to courses that don't have explicit political content). It does imply is that if the professors are trying it, they're not being successful. If they are trying it, it might just mean that teenagers are set in their views and aren't going to change just because of what their professor thinks.

of course it doesn't. The data is simply unable to know what is in Liberal professor's hearts, and is unable to know if the professors are being truthful. But did I hear you right? Liberals have a heart of gold and just don't try to influence politics? Even though their paychecks depend on politics? their employment future? When evil Republicans make a cut to the school budget...Liberals teachers don't explode? I don't buy it for a second, I have witnessed personally the opposite far too many times.

And you are taking Lootifer's assumption (which is based on???) as the truth? You guys saying Liberal professors do not try to influence political views is exactly the same as me saying they do, which will get Greekdog and BBS all over your ass. Oh wait probably not.

You also falsely assume that professors stick to the syllabus 100%. Does the syllabus for any class say that it's gonna skip chapter 2-5, chapter 7, and 11? But in almost every class I have had, chapters are skipped.

If a teenager is set in their views, then a professor cannot change a students views? That's one hell of a statement!

Do you have any better assumptions than:
-"if its not in the syllabus, it isn't mentioned"
-"professors don't talk about politics"
-"teenagers already have everything figured out"

This has nothing to do with what professors claim about what they do. You obviously still haven't read the study or even the New York Times summary. I'm done with you.

[Phatscotty]

Anyway, time for my general theory of everything. One of the problems in many institutions of higher learning is the "bubble boy" environment. Many disciplines are so caught up in the internal world of higher education that they never actually go out into the real world and put their ideas to the test. Why the whole idea of "peer review" is nothing but a good old boys system. Who reviews the peers? Why the peers themselves! Without ever having to "prove" their ideas in the real world, they "progress" to ever higher liberal states.

While those who get out of Plato's cave of education and actually have to "prove" their ideas in the real world "progress" to more efficient states (or become flat out broke) and become more and more conservative in the process.

Yup! I touched on that way earlier, but I used the 'jargon' example. When there are 15-25-35-49 Liberal professors for every 1 Conservative, that changes the conversations in the teachers lounge and the posters hung up in the hallways. In that environment, you will find that redistributing the wealth is pretty popular, and Republicans are evil and greedy. And that metriculates through the system. I guess it's possible that all teachers follow all rules and leave the politics in the personal conversations. However, I know and have known plenty of Liberals. I know how they are. And being quiet and respectful and tolerant of other ideas is NOT the M.O. Trying to 'fix' republicans or teasing and mocking them if they don't get on board with their way of thinking IS their M.O..

[Phatscotty]

I will read your links tomorrow I have to crash, but just a follow up question.

so the Liberals have an immense amount of power over what students see, hear, think, and say. And they do not use that power? Because I would think that those who have conviction in their Liberal values truly do believe they are making the world a better place by re-enforcing Liberal values into young minds. And they pass that chance up?

The data doesn't necessarily imply that liberal or conservative teachers don't ever try to influence the political views of their students (though, as Lootifer and I have pointed out, they really don't when it comes to courses that don't have explicit political content). It does imply is that if the professors are trying it, they're not being successful. If they are trying it, it might just mean that teenagers are set in their views and aren't going to change just because of what their professor thinks.

of course it doesn't. The data is simply unable to know what is in Liberal professor's hearts, and is unable to know if the professors are being truthful. But did I hear you right? Liberals have a heart of gold and just don't try to influence politics? Even though their paychecks depend on politics? their employment future? When evil Republicans make a cut to the school budget...Liberals teachers don't explode? I don't buy it for a second, I have witnessed personally the opposite far too many times.

And you are taking Lootifer's assumption (which is based on???) as the truth? You guys saying Liberal professors do not try to influence political views is exactly the same as me saying they do, which will get Greekdog and BBS all over your ass. Oh wait probably not.

You also falsely assume that professors stick to the syllabus 100%. Does the syllabus for any class say that it's gonna skip chapter 2-5, chapter 7, and 11? But in almost every class I have had, chapters are skipped.

If a teenager is set in their views, then a professor cannot change a students views? That's one hell of a statement!

Do you have any better assumptions than:
-"if its not in the syllabus, it isn't mentioned"
-"professors don't talk about politics"
-"teenagers already have everything figured out"

This has nothing to do with what professors claim about what they do. You obviously still haven't read the study or even the New York Times summary. I'm done with you.

If that's the 'headlines' one I posted and have read it 3 times..... That's the New York Times article which does not at all try to spin the headlines, right?

I did read it. That's the one that says "college students do in fact come out of college more Liberal, but not substantially' right? Would you mind pointing out the part you would like to talk about? cuz 'you didn't read the article" doesn't really explain what you are talking about.

Also, what would you say to someone who said "You still haven't read my article from FOX news or even the FOX news summary? Well I guess you cannot be reasoned with then, I'm done with you" What would you say?

[Metsfanmax]

I did read it. That's the one that says "college students do in fact come out of college more Liberal, but not substantially' right? Would you mind pointing out the part you would like to talk about? cuz 'you didn't read the article" doesn't really explain what you are talking about.

It's the one that says that students who graduate from college have about the same political views as other people their age who didn't go to college. Which means that you are wrong. There is no way to sugarcoat it. If the theory doesn't match the data, you revise the theory, not stick your hands over your ears.

Also, what would you say to someone who said "You still haven't read my article from FOX news or even the FOX news summary? Well I guess you cannot be reasoned with then, I'm done with you" What would you say?

The study was done by professional researchers in a peer-reviewed journal article. I linked the NYT article because 1) I don't expect you have much experience reading journal articles and 2) it's not freely available anyway. I can link you plenty of other summaries other than the NYT though.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/03/27/politics
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/do_lib ... _students/
http://www.facultyfocus.com/articles/ed ... d-reality/

After not reading these, I'm sure you'll come up with some other excuse too. You don't seem to actually be interested in enlightening yourself on what happens outside your small circle of friends, so I'm done with this conversation.

[Phatscotty]

I did read it. That's the one that says "college students do in fact come out of college more Liberal, but not substantially' right? Would you mind pointing out the part you would like to talk about? cuz 'you didn't read the article" doesn't really explain what you are talking about.

It's the one that says that students who graduate from college have about the same political views as other people their age who didn't go to college. Which means that you are wrong. There is no way to sugarcoat it. If the theory doesn't match the data, you revise the theory, not stick your hands over your ears.

Is that the case Met's? Because a study says it, it's 100% right and anyone who disagrees is wrong? What if there is a study that has different results? What if your study asked loaded questions? Do you know if that's the case or not? Greek just posted some results that showed data that is different from the data your study shows. There is no way to sugarcoat it. If the theory doesn't match the data, you revise the theory, not stick your hands over your ears.

High school graduate - 51% Democrat, 48% Republican
Postgraduate - 55% Democrat, 42% Republican

btw Greek. I thought 30% of Americans are Independent? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
See Met's, how a study is done and the questions asked make a ton of difference. I would bet a million dollars that data Greekdog posted did not include an independent option, and if it did the results would be turned completely upsidedown.


I'm not quitting the convo. I would love to go into that study and find out how it was done and who did it. Could you either delve into that or post the exact link you are talking about?

[Phatscotty]

I did read it. That's the one that says "college students do in fact come out of college more Liberal, but not substantially' right? Would you mind pointing out the part you would like to talk about? cuz 'you didn't read the article" doesn't really explain what you are talking about.

It's the one that says that students who graduate from college have about the same political views as other people their age who didn't go to college. Which means that you are wrong. There is no way to sugarcoat it. If the theory doesn't match the data, you revise the theory, not stick your hands over your ears.

Also, what would you say to someone who said "You still haven't read my article from FOX news or even the FOX news summary? Well I guess you cannot be reasoned with then, I'm done with you" What would you say?

The study was done by professional researchers in a peer-reviewed journal article. I linked the NYT article because 1) I don't expect you have much experience reading journal articles and 2) it's not freely available anyway. I can link you plenty of other summaries other than the NYT though.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/03/27/politics
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/do_lib ... _students/
http://www.facultyfocus.com/articles/ed ... d-reality/

After not reading these, I'm sure you'll come up with some other excuse too. You don't seem to actually be interested in enlightening yourself on what happens outside your small circle of friends, so I'm done with this conversation.

So you are unable to communicate your point. However, your articles do prove some of my previous points, and this is how I track my success on this topic. Ya see, 6 months ago, people were laughing at me and tearing me a new one for suggesting something as stupid as there are more Liberals than Conservative professors, FAR more. But now it seems like everyone has come around, and they granted me that point, but blow it off and move to the next one. Now it's 'well duh we all know Liberal professors outnumber Conservatives, but that doesn't mean students become more Liberal' and then i got my ass ripped and yelled at and called mean names, but now everyone has come around to 'well duh students come out of college more Liberal, but not substantially'...one day soon we will be at the next point, and eventually we can come around full circle to indoctrination techniques.