Saul: true believer or spouter of lies?

[_sabotage_]

Ok, and here is the other, the one that I will now ignore since he didn't answer my question.

[2dimes]

So you don't like Galatians. Is there specific parts that are ok and others that are really bad or is the whole thing just wrong?

[_sabotage_]

Look, if a guy came out explaining how to fight like Bruce Lee and half the people that listened to the guy broke their wrists because the guy's technique was both wrong and different from the technique drawn, written about and filmed by Bruce Lee, I wouldn't take him as an instructor. If 2000 years passed and his work was more prominent than Bruce's in the dojo's, but people were still breaking their wrists, I wouldn't think it great because of its tradition, nor how well he praised Bruce Lee nor because he had long managed to have the techniques of Bruce Lee that he didn't agree with hidden nor because one of Bruce Lee's other students said how good a fighter this guy was, I still wouldn't take him as an instructor. Especially when I can go directly to the writings of Bruce Lee and if more of the writings appeared, the one's that were intentionally hidden and they further highlighted the faults in the guys' technique while being in a distinct form of Bruce Lee, I would follow both the previous known works of Bruce and the uncovered ones and ignore the guy trying to explain him.

How much more important is this when it is your everlasting soul?

[notyou2]

Are you guys warring over religion?????





That's been done to death. So much so, that the rest of us ARE SICK OF IT.




Go war with yourself in a corner where we can't hear you.

[_sabotage_]

Don't worry, you won't hear if you don't want to.

[2dimes]

Fairly nice analogy but, I'm not trying to convert you to become a follower of anyone.

I'm confused about the fact that you seem almost angry with the guy and keep claiming he condemns women. The only thing he said about Women in my opinion was they should not go into "church" and ask questions. I'm pretty sure he was talking about Jewish Church. I don't see how it supports the Roman Catholic thing other than, "But, he said church."

Sure he did but at the time he said it there was no such thing as The Blessed Sepulture of our Lady or what ever over on third avenue, so he probably meant Jewish churches.

I don't believe he was suggesting women should not participate in gatherings. I'm fairly sure he was only trying to tell them not to go to Synagogues to make trouble. There was more to the verse than just the, "women should remain silent." but none of it seemed to be oppressing women further.

I wish I could find stuff written by Paul I could use to tell my wife and her mom to submit to me. That would come in handy. Please give me some chapters and verses here.

[2dimes]

Go war with yourself in a corner where we can't hear you.

We got kicked out of the Swedish forum last time.

[_sabotage_]

Why aren't women allowed to preach in the Roman Catholic Church? Why are priests to remain celibate? Why were Paul's works chosen to be included and other's not?

Jesus said that not one word of the law will disappear. Though there are many minor differences in describing Jesus's tos and fros, something's written in some gospels and not others, the words Jesus spoke are common throughout with additions found in some and not others. I believe this was the meaning, that his message and the other messages sent by God would remain. And if you know of the discovery of the Gospel of Thomas, it is amazing that it is intact. Jesus did not say, no false works will be attached to mine. In fact he warned of it, but let us know how to recognize it: by its fruits.

Many terrible things have been done supposedly for his sake, or with his guidance. How well are we receiving his word, and how much is confused by the addition of Paul's writings?

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Jesus did not say, be silent and only ask questions of your husband at home. Notice how it's his disciples trying to silence her?

I asked the question of Rishaed several times while doing my best to answer his questions and yet he would not reply. If Jesus said that those who follow God's will are his brothers and sisters, and this is a spiritual relationship, since the other part of the quote has him saying this in regards to his physical brothers and sisters, then why would he elevate someone to that relationship and then relegate them to follow the lowest of the low?

Woman who has been molested throughout her life and then was lost in a bet to an abusive pagan alcoholic, looks up the Christian works and falls upon the floor in front of the priest, "Father, I have suffered in misery my entire life but have found the will of God through the words of Jesus." "Woman, remain silent and ask questions of your pagan alcoholic husband at home, for so it is written in Corinthians."

Does this reflect the good news?

[2dimes]

The guy in your example is a priest. That should be red flag number one. If she's going there you should expect problems. Is she going to go see a psychic next, or did she just come back from there? The son of man came to shut down religion because the time of another man even a seemingly good one between you and God was finished. God is directly accessible to everyone through the messiah.

Do you see what was said there in line 24 and 26. She doesn't even argue or get upset. She instead figures out a way to reply that she understands and still wants help since he is her only hope and not a priest. That was while the veil had not been torn yet and a priest would still have access to God.

[jonesthecurl]

Supplementary question, mainly aimed at sab.
Remember, all, I don't have a horse in this race: I am genuinely interested, not backing a particular side.

So, if Paul should not be considered as canonical, and he was included by the guys that decided what ought to be IN the Bible and what should be OUT, what causes you to believe that they were correct in the rest of their decisions?
Revelations for instance: does that belong? Whether the answer is yes or no, how do you know?

[jonesthecurl]

And for every christian, a wider question - how do you know that the bits that got into the bible are the right bits?

[2dimes]

Good call and it could be a whole other thread. I'm with him in wondering what other books are worthy of being included.

I know there is a warning not to add to The Book of Revelation but does that apply to the bible like so many claim, or is it just a warning not to mess about with that particular book?

[hahaha3hahaha]

-deleted-

[mrswdk]

every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven

The Bible is a really fucked up book. Makes me want to do mushrooms.

[universalchiro]

And for every christian, a wider question - how do you know that the bits that got into the bible are the right bits?

This is a valid question and everyone should ask this question and know the answer.
The first five books were accepted as the words of God, because the writer after claiming to have spoken with God and received a list of 10 commandments, glowed. The writers name: Moses. So the people were pretty freaked out and understood that this was something supernatural that couldn't be faked (Exodus 34:29-35). So the first criteria is the author had to claim to of spoken with God or received a divine word from the Lord. Why? All scripture is inspired by God, God breathed into them what to write (2 Timothy 3:16).

Many of the authors had face to face contact with God in the flesh, Jesus.

Many authors were corroborated by other authors that also walked and talked with God in the flesh face to face (2 Peter 3:15-19), Peter acknowledges all of Paul's writings as scripture and all the Old Testament. Paul quotes Deuteronomy and Luke in 1 Timothy 5:18. So being quoted was a measuring stick.
The prophets, to authenticate what they were saying was true about the distant future, they would prophesy something in the near-term. If they got it wrong, they would be stoned (Deuteronomy 18:20-22). So an author when prophesying, had to be true as a test of coming from God.
The authors had to direct people to God. If anyone wrote or spoke directing the people away from God and to other gods, they had to be stoned (Deuteronomy 13: 1-5). So another test was whether their writings led people to God or away from God.
Another standard is that God can't lie (Titus 1:2), therefore since the Word is from God, it has to be truth. Truth about history, science, nature, biology, truths about the cause and effect of mankind's actions and thoughts while on earth and truths about God for mankind to know God.
Some of the authors had supernatural abilities for a brief period of time to authenticate they were speaking from God; Such as to call fire down from Heaven (1 Kings 18:20-46), raise the dead (Acts 9:40), cause droughts (James 5:17)
Completeness: The books of the Bible are complete.
(these are just some that I know of, I wasn't there when the early church canonized the Word of God)

The nature of God: How someone responds to the Bible will determine their fate for eternity, so God in His sovereignty kept His word faithful, truthful and complete.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

[rishaed]

every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven

The Bible is a really fucked up book. Makes me want to do mushrooms.

You didn't read carefully enough. That is in the gnostic book of Thomas, not in any book in any normal Bible you will find printed, I don't know which "movement" uses it, but I seem to do just fine with a KJV.

[mrswdk]

You mean different varieties of Christian pick and choose which writings they want to listen to and which they want to ignore? A la carte morality - perfect!

[2dimes]

You mean different varieties of Christian pick and choose which writings they want to listen to and which they want to ignore? A la carte morality - perfect!

Not exactly the modern Bible is the Old Testament. Which is the Torah translated from Hebrew. It is what you find inside the ark in a synagog. (Jewish church or temple)

Then also included is the New Testament or new covenant. Much is translated from Greek some from Hebrew. It's made up of the four gospels, various books, letters to churches and people, it ends with a book titled the revelation of John. The whole thing is usually printed in a single language as a Holy Bible.

What was included was chosen by a comity a few centuries ago. Then there are some books and gospels that were excluded. Most people are either happy with it or have no idea. Some think a few or all of the excluded works are equal, some think they have been suppressed.

[hahaha3hahaha]

-deleted-

[universalchiro]

Did Jesus affirm himself as God in the flesh?

Jesus testifying about Himself said, (John 5:39) "39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,". Exactly what scriptures was Jesus talking about? The entire Old Testament, but you'll never find the name Jesus, why? He was known as Lord, God, Almighty, Yahweh, I AM.
Jesus declared Moses wrote about Jesus: (John 5:46 ) " If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me." Where did Moses write about Jesus? Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God". That word God is Elohim, plural form of God, ie The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Genesis 1:27 "Let us make man in our image according to our likeness". Moses wrote us, our, our. Hear the plural personal pronouns? Why? God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Moses wrote about God appearing to Abraham in Genesis 15-17 where Abraham washed God's feet and fed in while God sat under a tree.
Jesus declared He walked and talked with Abraham (John 8:56), the Pharisees said, you're not even 50 years old, and you walked and talked with Abraham? Jesus took it up a notch and said He was the I AM of Exodus 3:11-15. So the Pharisees picked up stones to stone Him for declaring He was Yahweh. Jesus declared He is the Great I AM that gave Moses the 10 Commandments and led Israel out of Egypt.
Matthew 1:23 declares Jesus was called Immanuel which means God is with us. Angels affirmed Jesus was God in the flesh.
John 1: declared that the Word was with God from the beginning and the Word was God...and became flesh and dwelt among us, that Jesus is the Word that was with God from the beginning and all things were created through Jesus and nothing was made that wasn't made through Jesus, and He became flesh and dwelt among us.

Who led Israel out of Egypt and was King of Israel? 1 Samuel 8:7 The Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them". So God is King of Israel. When Pilate asked Jesus (Luke 23:2-3) "We found this man ...saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.” 3 So Pilate asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?” And He answered him and said, “It is as you say.”.. So Christ affirms He is King of the Jews.

Angels will refuse to be worshiped, (Revelation 19:10), John wrote "Then I fell at his (angel) feet to worship him. But he *said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Since angels refuse to be worshiped, then who is this being in Joshua 5: 13 Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” 14 He said, “No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord.”.... At this point we don't know if this is an angel..... " And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?”..... Joshua is now worshiping this being, if this is an angel, he will say get up and worship God, but listen to what this being says...." 15 The captain of the Lord’s host said to Joshua, “Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.".... This being accepts Joshua's physical bowing and verbal worship, but declares it's not sufficient, now take off your sandals. But it's not where they were that was holy, for they weren't in the promise land yet, it was who was standing there. For up to that point in time, only 5 books, by Moses, had been written, and everyone knew of the burning bush story, where God told Moses, "remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy". This being in front of Joshua quotes the Exodus 3 burning bush saying. this is God in the flesh, Jesus. Why? Because no one has ever seen God the Father at any time (1 John 4:12, John 1:18, Exodus 33:20), why? Because God the Father is invisible (Colossians 1:15).

This is how I know for certain that Jesus is God in the flesh. Jesus declared it, angels proclaimed it, writers of both the Old and New Testament wrote about it.

Sabotage,
You are way off base. There is no contradiction between what Paul wrote and Jesus spoke. For Paul affirmed the deity of Jesus as God in the flesh. Which means all the O.T. appearing of God was Jesus not the Father (Colossians 1:15-18) & all of Paul's writings was inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Peter affirmed Paul as writing the Word of God and affirmed all of pauls writings as scripture just like all the O.T. . Peter also calls Paul our beloved brother who is spotless and blameless. AND PETER REBUKES HARSHLY THE UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE WHO DISTORT PAUL'S WRITTEN WORD(2Peter 3:14-16)

Be careful sabotage, you are in grave error with your public thread.

[mrswdk]

The point remains that different Christians use different teachings to justify different moral stances, hence 'a la carte morality'.

[chang50]

The point remains that different Christians use different teachings to justify different moral stances, hence 'a la carte morality'.

Who'd of thought it?It's almost like it's all man-made

[_sabotage_]

Hahaha,

Forgive me, but I can't find your answer in your post. Was Jesus elevating women who followed God's will to the equal of man? If so, why does Paul then relegate them to following their husbands? I did not write that they cannot enter Church, are you writing that they may preach or saying that the Roman Catholics don't have this rule?

You then go on to quote, a quote I had used previously, to suggest that the Gospel of Thomas has Jesus saying that women are inferior. In the other quote which I asked you to answer, Jesus defines his physical brothers and sisters, and his spiritual ones. The one from Thomas is not different, he can make them as spiritual great as any man.

How does this Paul relate to the Roman Catholic Church? If you can show me where Jesus said that women shall not be priests from the words spoken by Jesus, then I would be happy to agree, but they don't base this rule on one proposed by Jesus, but rather from the works of Paul. The same is true with celibacy. They received this through Paul and maintain it through Paul.

Why was Paul the only one every harmed by Jesus? Also, please remember that Paul was an agent of the Pharisees and very familiar with their law, his task was to destroy the work of Jesus. What better way than co-opt it? If the words of Paul do not match the words of Jesus, whose will you choose? If they are the same, then why bother with Paul at all?

Sure to the Jamie Oliver example, with the same exceptions above. If a lot of crappy recipes appear in the recipe book by one claiming to be guided by Jamie Oliver that are distinctly different and written after he was unavailable, I would judge them as unequal to Jamie Oliver and being crappy, would not cook them.

Not one word of the law will disappear. He does not say, only the law will appear. The words of Jesus have been preserved, not by the Roman Catholic Church and not because of Paul, but despite them. He who has ears, let them hear. Do you feel that this suggests that people are physically deaf or spiritually?

As to the accusation of forgery of the Gospel of Thomas, please clarify. Does it differ from what Jesus said in the other Gospels, or what the Church established? If you feel that God assembled the Church, do you also feel that he retroactively allowed the Church to say that because Noah's son saw him naked, black people should be slaves? This was their justification, while they simultaneously hold that the laws were done away with. Which is it? Are they done away with, or available to cherry pick, or there eternally?

@universalchiro, Jesus repeatedly referred to himself as the son of man and there are many prophecies of his coming. He never referred to himself as God incarnate. God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.

@Jones, you shall know them by their fruits, according to Jesus.

[_sabotage_]

@mrswdk

Around three centuries after Jesus's work, the emperor Constantine decided that perhaps Christianity, which was long persecuted by the Romans, might be useful in reviving the strength of the empire. Two of the perceived problems in the empire was the growing political clout of women and the tendency of their husbands to have sex with boys.

Paul's writings corresponded well with these ideas, and several of the gospels as well. These were chosen for inclusion. Other works, such as the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas did not correspond with the perceived needs of the empire and were disenfranchised and suppressed.

I have met many who have been turned away from believing or following Jesus not because of anything that he has said or done, but rather because of what Paul said and what the Church has done. To these people, I suggest going directly to the source and in the purveyors of the source, Paul and the Church, see their failings to understand that following the law is difficult, but that we are saved through Jesus despite this. If you can find Jesus through Paul's works, then I am pleased to have another brother or sister in Jesus, but ask that you never put their words above those of Jesus.

When I go to Church, I hear the long prayers of the priests and think of Jesus telling his disciples,

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

[hahaha3hahaha]

-deleted-