Politics in Canada

[Dukasaur]

Do you guys believe Harper when he says he didn't know about the check?

Of course he knew. That is not the kind of money Wright would have released without consulting others, and even if the "others" did not immediately include Harper, he would have been consulted at some point.

Should we condemn him based on that? Of that, I'm not so sure. It happens all the time that someone is caught stealing from their employer, and the employer decides to avoid publicity by agreeing to accept repayment of the funds and not prosecuting the offender. I'm sure that with a private employer that's a perfectly valid choice, theirs to make. Is it still a valid choice when the employer is the Senate, and indirectly the taxpayers? I'm not completely convinced yea or nay.




ps. If you're Canadian, why don't you spell it "cheque"? Are you a closet Yankee?

[mrswdk]

Maybe someone should check(!) that out.

[Lootifer]

Another arrogant asshole who can't actually debate, so they make rude comments to make themselves feel better... Basically, your initial post states nothing that can even be compared, due to location, polling entities, occupations of the mentioned, etc. so I'll let this thread die, just as I should have done to begin with. I suppose I misconstrued that since you posted this you may want to have a real discussion about it, but that is having high hopes for you, and I'll remember not to do that anymore.

[Baron Von PWN]

Do you guys believe Harper when he says he didn't know about the check?

Of course he knew. That is not the kind of money Wright would have released without consulting others, and even if the "others" did not immediately include Harper, he would have been consulted at some point.

Should we condemn him based on that? Of that, I'm not so sure. It happens all the time that someone is caught stealing from their employer, and the employer decides to avoid publicity by agreeing to accept repayment of the funds and not prosecuting the offender. I'm sure that with a private employer that's a perfectly valid choice, theirs to make. Is it still a valid choice when the employer is the Senate, and indirectly the taxpayers? I'm not completely convinced yea or nay.




ps. If you're Canadian, why don't you spell it "cheque"? Are you a closet Yankee?

I think we should.

I think most private employer would fire any employee caught stealing/abusing funds even if they were paid back, they might not press charges. I think a CEO who tried to cover up the abuses of one of their subordinates and then lied to shareholders about it would at a minimum be fired and maybe even be liable for criminal charges. I think a PM should be held to just as high a standard.

We currently have a Prime minister who is avoiding questions when he does answer questions he is in all likely hood outright lying to parliament and the public. What he's lying about is actual outright criminal activity (basically bribing a sitting senator), not just run of the mill shitty policy.

[keiths31]

Do you guys believe Harper when he says he didn't know about the check?

Of course he knew. That is not the kind of money Wright would have released without consulting others, and even if the "others" did not immediately include Harper, he would have been consulted at some point.

Should we condemn him based on that? Of that, I'm not so sure. It happens all the time that someone is caught stealing from their employer, and the employer decides to avoid publicity by agreeing to accept repayment of the funds and not prosecuting the offender. I'm sure that with a private employer that's a perfectly valid choice, theirs to make. Is it still a valid choice when the employer is the Senate, and indirectly the taxpayers? I'm not completely convinced yea or nay.




ps. If you're Canadian, why don't you spell it "cheque"? Are you a closet Yankee?

I think we should.

I think most private employer would fire any employee caught stealing/abusing funds even if they were paid back, they might not press charges. I think a CEO who tried to cover up the abuses of one of their subordinates and then lied to shareholders about it would at a minimum be fired and maybe even be liable for criminal charges. I think a PM should be held to just as high a standard.

We currently have a Prime minister who is avoiding questions when he does answer questions he is in all likely hood outright lying to parliament and the public. What he's lying about is actual outright criminal activity (basically bribing a sitting senator), not just run of the mill shitty policy.

If there is proof he knew and was part of the whole scheme, then he should resign as PM (and I am a Conservative supporter). But what has happened in Ontario is criminal to the extent of one billion dollars. There is a huge difference between one billion dollars and $90,000. Both are wrong and should be punished. But the sitting government in Ontario is almost getting a free pass on this right now. It is barely brought up in the media and there has been no one held accountable as of yet and I have my doubts anyone ever will.

[Dukasaur]

Do you guys believe Harper when he says he didn't know about the check?

Of course he knew. That is not the kind of money Wright would have released without consulting others, and even if the "others" did not immediately include Harper, he would have been consulted at some point.

Should we condemn him based on that? Of that, I'm not so sure. It happens all the time that someone is caught stealing from their employer, and the employer decides to avoid publicity by agreeing to accept repayment of the funds and not prosecuting the offender. I'm sure that with a private employer that's a perfectly valid choice, theirs to make. Is it still a valid choice when the employer is the Senate, and indirectly the taxpayers? I'm not completely convinced yea or nay.




ps. If you're Canadian, why don't you spell it "cheque"? Are you a closet Yankee?

I think we should.

I think most private employer would fire any employee caught stealing/abusing funds even if they were paid back, they might not press charges. I think a CEO who tried to cover up the abuses of one of their subordinates and then lied to shareholders about it would at a minimum be fired and maybe even be liable for criminal charges. I think a PM should be held to just as high a standard.

We currently have a Prime minister who is avoiding questions when he does answer questions he is in all likely hood outright lying to parliament and the public. What he's lying about is actual outright criminal activity (basically bribing a sitting senator), not just run of the mill shitty policy.

If there is proof he knew and was part of the whole scheme, then he should resign as PM (and I am a Conservative supporter). But what has happened in Ontario is criminal to the extent of one billion dollars. There is a huge difference between one billion dollars and $90,000. Both are wrong and should be punished. But the sitting government in Ontario is almost getting a free pass on this right now. It is barely brought up in the media and there has been no one held accountable as of yet and I have my doubts anyone ever will.

I don't know about "barely mentioned". I've seen plenty of mention.

There is, of course, a pro-Liberal bias in the media, and I'm sure that is what you think is at play here. Personally, though, I think the Liberal bias is not the main factor here. I think, for the most part, that this is mainly an application of Parkinson's Law at work. Everyone can imagine themselves stealing 90,000 in fake travel expenses from their employer. Most people, I suspect, are completely stupefied at the thought of how to spend a billion dollars on not building a generating station. It hasn't caught the public's mind because it defies comprehension.

[saxitoxin]

Rob ford is the most hilarious and most embarrassing. Whats your take on the senate scandal sax man?

Bring me up to speed on the detes!

[Baron Von PWN]

Do you guys believe Harper when he says he didn't know about the check?

Of course he knew. That is not the kind of money Wright would have released without consulting others, and even if the "others" did not immediately include Harper, he would have been consulted at some point.

Should we condemn him based on that? Of that, I'm not so sure. It happens all the time that someone is caught stealing from their employer, and the employer decides to avoid publicity by agreeing to accept repayment of the funds and not prosecuting the offender. I'm sure that with a private employer that's a perfectly valid choice, theirs to make. Is it still a valid choice when the employer is the Senate, and indirectly the taxpayers? I'm not completely convinced yea or nay.




ps. If you're Canadian, why don't you spell it "cheque"? Are you a closet Yankee?

I think we should.

I think most private employer would fire any employee caught stealing/abusing funds even if they were paid back, they might not press charges. I think a CEO who tried to cover up the abuses of one of their subordinates and then lied to shareholders about it would at a minimum be fired and maybe even be liable for criminal charges. I think a PM should be held to just as high a standard.

We currently have a Prime minister who is avoiding questions when he does answer questions he is in all likely hood outright lying to parliament and the public. What he's lying about is actual outright criminal activity (basically bribing a sitting senator), not just run of the mill shitty policy.

If there is proof he knew and was part of the whole scheme, then he should resign as PM (and I am a Conservative supporter). But what has happened in Ontario is criminal to the extent of one billion dollars. There is a huge difference between one billion dollars and $90,000. Both are wrong and should be punished. But the sitting government in Ontario is almost getting a free pass on this right now. It is barely brought up in the media and there has been no one held accountable as of yet and I have my doubts anyone ever will.

I don't know about "barely mentioned". I've seen plenty of mention.

There is, of course, a pro-Liberal bias in the media, and I'm sure that is what you think is at play here. Personally, though, I think the Liberal bias is not the main factor here. I think, for the most part, that this is mainly an application of Parkinson's Law at work. Everyone can imagine themselves stealing 90,000 in fake travel expenses from their employer. Most people, I suspect, are completely stupefied at the thought of how to spend a billion dollars on not building a generating station. It hasn't caught the public's mind because it defies comprehension.

I think there is another angle here. What the Mcguinty government did was merely incompetent. I don't believe it was illegal. Deleting emails maybe, but just cancelling the plants was legal if stupid. Another thing Mcguinty already resigned allegedly for other reasons but he's no longer premier or even an mpp, and as a result has dropped off the political radar somewhat.

Contrast that with the senate scandal. The government originally denied there was any wrong doing. Then said ok there's something wrong Duffy and others will pay us back. Then It turns out that Duffy got a 90k present from the PMO's chief of staff (Illegal if undeclared which it was), Steve and crew praise Wright for his principled but regrettable resignation, oh btw Harper has no idea what's going on in his office. Now Wright is a deceiver and was "dismissed" and a "few" people knew about it, but def not Steve! They then decided to kick the senators in question out of the senate after they start to talk, they do this by simply voting them out with a majority vote of senators who have their jobs thanks to Steve, who knew nothing.

Both are bad. The senate scandal is more interesting as the government has been all over the place on it and it directly implicates the Prime minister.

[saxitoxin]

James Carville is recommending Obama start smoking crack to shore-up his collapsing poll numbers -

Democratic strategist James Carville said Monday in light of President Barack Obama’s declining poll numbers, maybe he should take a page from an infamous Canadian mayor.

“I think the best thing he can do is take a toke on the mayor of Toronto’s crack pipe, because his numbers are about 48”

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/11/j ... z2kMiBboW1

[Baron Von PWN]

Rob ford is the most hilarious and most embarrassing. Whats your take on the senate scandal sax man?

Bring me up to speed on the detes!

basic run down.

1. 3 conservative(all appointed by Harper) and 1 Liberal senator start being questioned over their expense claims.
2. Government initialy backs the conservative senators up, but then says they have to pay the money back.
3. The senators more or less agree to pay money back, PMO/ Conservative party says "Nothing to see here taxpayers got their money back!"
4. It surfaces that one of the conservative senators was given a cheque for 90k dollars form the chief of staff of the PMO(Prime ministers office) which he then used to pay the money owed the government. In exchange for this "gift" Duffy would be silent about the affair.
5. PMO initially tries to back the chief of staff, but eventually he resigns. The Prime minister, a notorious control freak, claims he and no one else in his office had any idea his chief of staff gave Duffy a 90k present over a politically sensitive issue. The PMO and party all lament the loss of the former chief of staff.
6. It then emerges the conservative party of Canada was going supposed to pay duffy, but it balked when it turned out it was 90k. It was only willing to pay a smaller amount.
7. Duffy reveals he had spoken to more people than just the Chief of staff. the Prime minister continues to deny any knowledge.
8.Now that duffy and other sentors now are making noise, the former chief of staff was "dismissed" and had "deceived", also it is suddenly important that the senate vote to expel the 3 senators before an investigation can be conducted (the senate is full of the PMO's appointees how convenient).

This i around where things are atm.
Oh and the RCMP is investigating the whole thing.

[saxitoxin]

Rob ford is the most hilarious and most embarrassing. Whats your take on the senate scandal sax man?

Bring me up to speed on the detes!

basic run down.

1. 3 conservative(all appointed by Harper) and 1 Liberal senator start being questioned over their expense claims.
2. Government initialy backs the conservative senators up, but then says they have to pay the money back.
3. The senators more or less agree to pay money back, PMO/ Conservative party says "Nothing to see here taxpayers got their money back!"
4. It surfaces that one of the conservative senators was given a cheque for 90k dollars form the chief of staff of the PMO(Prime ministers office) which he then used to pay the money owed the government. In exchange for this "gift" Duffy would be silent about the affair.
5. PMO initially tries to back the chief of staff, but eventually he resigns. The Prime minister, a notorious control freak, claims he and no one else in his office had any idea his chief of staff gave Duffy a 90k present over a politically sensitive issue. The PMO and party all lament the loss of the former chief of staff.
6. It then emerges the conservative party of Canada was going supposed to pay duffy, but it balked when it turned out it was 90k. It was only willing to pay a smaller amount.
7. Duffy reveals he had spoken to more people than just the Chief of staff. the Prime minister continues to deny any knowledge.
8.Now that duffy and other sentors now are making noise, the former chief of staff was "dismissed" and had "deceived", also it is suddenly important that the senate vote to expel the 3 senators before an investigation can be conducted (the senate is full of the PMO's appointees how convenient).

This i around where things are atm.
Oh and the RCMP is investigating the whole thing.

Whose $90K was it?

[notyou2]

Rob ford is the most hilarious and most embarrassing. Whats your take on the senate scandal sax man?

Bring me up to speed on the detes!

basic run down.

1. 3 conservative(all appointed by Harper) and 1 Liberal senator start being questioned over their expense claims.
2. Government initialy backs the conservative senators up, but then says they have to pay the money back.
3. The senators more or less agree to pay money back, PMO/ Conservative party says "Nothing to see here taxpayers got their money back!"
4. It surfaces that one of the conservative senators was given a cheque for 90k dollars form the chief of staff of the PMO(Prime ministers office) which he then used to pay the money owed the government. In exchange for this "gift" Duffy would be silent about the affair.
5. PMO initially tries to back the chief of staff, but eventually he resigns. The Prime minister, a notorious control freak, claims he and no one else in his office had any idea his chief of staff gave Duffy a 90k present over a politically sensitive issue. The PMO and party all lament the loss of the former chief of staff.
6. It then emerges the conservative party of Canada was going supposed to pay duffy, but it balked when it turned out it was 90k. It was only willing to pay a smaller amount.
7. Duffy reveals he had spoken to more people than just the Chief of staff. the Prime minister continues to deny any knowledge.
8.Now that duffy and other sentors now are making noise, the former chief of staff was "dismissed" and had "deceived", also it is suddenly important that the senate vote to expel the 3 senators before an investigation can be conducted (the senate is full of the PMO's appointees how convenient).

This i around where things are atm.
Oh and the RCMP is investigating the whole thing.

Whose $90K was it?

I believe it belonged to the Conservative Party of Canada.If not then it would be PMO (prime minister's office) money which I think is tax payer money. However, I believe they are saying it was the chief of staff's personal money, perhaps it will be proven in time whose money it actually was.

[saxitoxin]

Rob ford is the most hilarious and most embarrassing. Whats your take on the senate scandal sax man?

Bring me up to speed on the detes!

basic run down.

1. 3 conservative(all appointed by Harper) and 1 Liberal senator start being questioned over their expense claims.
2. Government initialy backs the conservative senators up, but then says they have to pay the money back.
3. The senators more or less agree to pay money back, PMO/ Conservative party says "Nothing to see here taxpayers got their money back!"
4. It surfaces that one of the conservative senators was given a cheque for 90k dollars form the chief of staff of the PMO(Prime ministers office) which he then used to pay the money owed the government. In exchange for this "gift" Duffy would be silent about the affair.
5. PMO initially tries to back the chief of staff, but eventually he resigns. The Prime minister, a notorious control freak, claims he and no one else in his office had any idea his chief of staff gave Duffy a 90k present over a politically sensitive issue. The PMO and party all lament the loss of the former chief of staff.
6. It then emerges the conservative party of Canada was going supposed to pay duffy, but it balked when it turned out it was 90k. It was only willing to pay a smaller amount.
7. Duffy reveals he had spoken to more people than just the Chief of staff. the Prime minister continues to deny any knowledge.
8.Now that duffy and other sentors now are making noise, the former chief of staff was "dismissed" and had "deceived", also it is suddenly important that the senate vote to expel the 3 senators before an investigation can be conducted (the senate is full of the PMO's appointees how convenient).

This i around where things are atm.
Oh and the RCMP is investigating the whole thing.

Whose $90K was it?

I believe it belonged to the Conservative Party of Canada.If not then it would be PMO (prime minister's office) money which I think is tax payer money. However, I believe they are saying it was the chief of staff's personal money, perhaps it will be proven in time whose money it actually was.

If it's 1 or 3 I don't get what the big deal is; if it's 2 then that Ian McKellen lookalike who is Harper's boss should fire the guy.

[Baron Von PWN]

Rob ford is the most hilarious and most embarrassing. Whats your take on the senate scandal sax man?

Bring me up to speed on the detes!

basic run down.

1. 3 conservative(all appointed by Harper) and 1 Liberal senator start being questioned over their expense claims.
2. Government initialy backs the conservative senators up, but then says they have to pay the money back.
3. The senators more or less agree to pay money back, PMO/ Conservative party says "Nothing to see here taxpayers got their money back!"
4. It surfaces that one of the conservative senators was given a cheque for 90k dollars form the chief of staff of the PMO(Prime ministers office) which he then used to pay the money owed the government. In exchange for this "gift" Duffy would be silent about the affair.
5. PMO initially tries to back the chief of staff, but eventually he resigns. The Prime minister, a notorious control freak, claims he and no one else in his office had any idea his chief of staff gave Duffy a 90k present over a politically sensitive issue. The PMO and party all lament the loss of the former chief of staff.
6. It then emerges the conservative party of Canada was going supposed to pay duffy, but it balked when it turned out it was 90k. It was only willing to pay a smaller amount.
7. Duffy reveals he had spoken to more people than just the Chief of staff. the Prime minister continues to deny any knowledge.
8.Now that duffy and other sentors now are making noise, the former chief of staff was "dismissed" and had "deceived", also it is suddenly important that the senate vote to expel the 3 senators before an investigation can be conducted (the senate is full of the PMO's appointees how convenient).

This i around where things are atm.
Oh and the RCMP is investigating the whole thing.

Whose $90K was it?

I believe it belonged to the Conservative Party of Canada.If not then it would be PMO (prime minister's office) money which I think is tax payer money. However, I believe they are saying it was the chief of staff's personal money, perhaps it will be proven in time whose money it actually was.

If it's 1 or 3 I don't get what the big deal is; if it's 2 then that Ian McKellen lookalike who is Harper's boss should fire the guy.

If the PMO had just owned up to what happened at the beginning it wouldn't have been a big deal. They tried to hide what was going on and then lied about it and are still lying about, that's what makes it a big deal.

[saxitoxin]

If it's 1 or 3 I don't get what the big deal is; if it's 2 then that Ian McKellen lookalike who is Harper's boss should fire the guy.

If the PMO had just owned up to what happened at the beginning it wouldn't have been a big deal. They tried to hide what was going on and then lied about it and are still lying about, that's what makes it a big deal.

That's fair. I'll just say that, when the biggest scandal afflicting your government is that the prime minister once lied about a non-criminal act involving a 5-digit sum of money, things are - overall - going pretty well for your country.

[DoomYoshi]

If it's 1 or 3 I don't get what the big deal is; if it's 2 then that Ian McKellen lookalike who is Harper's boss should fire the guy.

If the PMO had just owned up to what happened at the beginning it wouldn't have been a big deal. They tried to hide what was going on and then lied about it and are still lying about, that's what makes it a big deal.

That's fair. I'll just say that, when the biggest scandal afflicting your government is that the prime minister once lied about a non-criminal act involving a 5-digit sum of money, things are - overall - going pretty well for your country.

It isn't the biggest scandal. The biggest scandal is that we have the most fresh water in the world, one of the biggest oil deposits, the biggest copper, iron, gold, platinum, uranium and diamond deposits. We have nearly unlimited access to wood.

Yet we aren't the world super-power because the government keeps selling land to the Chinese. Our country has about as efficient of a government as those of the west african countries. Our diamonds are like blood diamonds, without the blood. Canada is basically a overgrown colony, with no inhabitants fit to govern. The consensus here is that a morning coat is to be worn with out a hat, and with a long tie. We need the Queen now more than ever. Start up another opium war!

[_sabotage_]

How is it the Chinese fault that Harper keeps trying to sell them our resources? And the Queen is busy striking her own deal with the Chinese, but I don't think it involves opium.

[Baron Von PWN]

If it's 1 or 3 I don't get what the big deal is; if it's 2 then that Ian McKellen lookalike who is Harper's boss should fire the guy.

If the PMO had just owned up to what happened at the beginning it wouldn't have been a big deal. They tried to hide what was going on and then lied about it and are still lying about, that's what makes it a big deal.

That's fair. I'll just say that, when the biggest scandal afflicting your government is that the prime minister once lied about a non-criminal act involving a 5-digit sum of money, things are - overall - going pretty well for your country.

The "gift" itself was criminal. Giving an undeclared gift of over a certain value, 90K is over that value, to a sitting senator is illegal. The money was not declared and Duffy/the PMO claimed it was his own money. When it came out it was actually Nigel Wright's money. The PMO denied all knowledge and said Nigel Wright acted on his own.

I agree this isin't the worst scandal in the world, but this government has really abused the way parliament works, in ways that are against convention but not actually illegal. They put all of their new legislation(healthcare, the budget, law and order you name its in it) in one enormous bill, and then limit debate on that bill and pass it all at once. PMO never answers questions, they limit what federal employees can say to the media, ect ect. So when they've been caught actually unarguably breaking the law, in even a pretty minor way but they trot out absurd lies to cover it, it's sort-of the last straw.

The only thing this government has done which has been good for Canada are the number of trade deals they've signed.

[2dimes]

Canada is basically a overgrown colony, with no inhabitants fit to govern.

What about Ruth Ellen Brosseau?

[mrswdk]

It's got Justin Bieber.

[DoomYoshi]

Canada is basically a overgrown colony, with no inhabitants fit to govern.

What about Ruth Ellen Brosseau?

How did you know she was my favourite?

[notyou2]

Canada is basically a overgrown colony, with no inhabitants fit to govern.

What about Ruth Ellen Brosseau?

How did you know she was my favourite?[/quote

My kind of politician

[2dimes]

How could she possibly not be?

[betiko]

I ve seen some great stuff about the mayor of toronto. Is that a joke???

[DoomYoshi]

I ve seen some great stuff about the mayor of toronto. Is that a joke???

No.

I am thinking that he will agree with my assessment that the best thing in the world is when you pay your hooker, she blows the money on crack and them smokes it with you.