Congratulations people of Ukraine

[Arama86n]

As I was reading the news-feed about Ukraine a few minutes ago tears came unbidden to my eyes, something that surprises me more than anyone, as it's a very very rare thing for me. In a way, that in itself makes me sad because the people of Ukraine are hardly the only ones suffering out there, and I don't exactly sit every morning and shed tears for the people of numerous counties in Africa or Asia that deserve them just as much or more. But ofc, that is understandable, for if one was to continually reflect over the atrocities of the world, then one would not have time for much else than tears.

Whatever the case, it would seem the people of Ukraine are going to get their will through, to some degree anyway. And it is a truly fantastic thing to see democracy at work. And I don't mean elections, that sort of democracy is simply the best we have, but oh so flawed. I mean the people taking to the streets as if it was the 18th century and demanding that their will be obliged, risking injury or death.
I sincerely hope that if the day should come in Sweden that I have the courage to face the bullets.

People of Ukraine, I salute you!

[BigBallinStalin]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

[Arama86n]

I am under no illusion that there will be some hollywood ending, there never is.
The point is the here and now, the moment: The police have backed off, the president has fled, and the people seemingly have their victory. Ofc things will revert back to the usual corrupt "democracy" sooner or later, but this moment, today, is beautiful. They have risked their lives to try and DO something about their situation. To try and change the course their country is on, and for better or for worse they have done so.
But if one cannot see greatness in the rise of the people, then... well then one has taken cynicism a level to far in my opinion.
Yes, one can argue that it's all pointless, that those with vision know what it will revert back to sooner rather than later. but that is missing the point.

[GoranZ]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

Another most important thing that Western media intentionally forget to mention...

Who is the opposition in Ukraine?
1. "Svoboda" translated: Freedom... They are Nazis in every aspect of the word, starting from their National Socialist background and celebration of holiday for SS brigades(yes the one that were sending Jews to concentration camps)
2. Vitali Klitschko... Former Boxer and heavily backed by Germany
3. "Batkovishcina" translated: Fatherland... Moderate party, and only one that has enough brain to keep Ukraine out of civil war.

So to whom is Arama86n congratulating? To the Nazis?

P.S. For now Round 1 of Ukrainian crisis has ended but the crisis is far from over, there will be few more rounds this year.

[BigBallinStalin]

I am under no illusion that there will be some hollywood ending, there never is.
The point is the here and now, the moment: The police have backed off, the president has fled, and the people seemingly have their victory. Ofc things will revert back to the usual corrupt "democracy" sooner or later, but this moment, today, is beautiful. They have risked their lives to try and DO something about their situation. To try and change the course their country is on, and for better or for worse they have done so.
But if one cannot see greatness in the rise of the people, then... well then one has taken cynicism a level to far in my opinion.
Yes, one can argue that it's all pointless, that those with vision know what it will revert back to sooner rather than later. but that is missing the point.

Well, "the people" really equals <1%; you're under this hollywood vision of "the people" rising up. It's far from the truth.

Those few certainly have 'done something'--along with their 'friends', but as you say, things will revert to a corrupt democracy.

If you step back from your romantic vision of "the people" implementing "change," then maybe you can see how this is not at all beautiful or inspiring. Once we update your definition of 'the people', then you'll have led yourself to the cynical conclusion.

[BigBallinStalin]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

Another most important thing that Western media intentionally forget to mention...

Who is the opposition in Ukraine?
1. "Svoboda" translated: Freedom... They are Nazis in every aspect of the word, starting from their National Socialist background and celebration of holiday for SS brigades(yes the one that were sending Jews to concentration camps)
2. Vitali Klitschko... Former Boxer and heavily backed by Germany
3. "Batkovishcina" translated: Fatherland... Moderate party, and only one that has enough brain to keep Ukraine out of civil war.

So to whom is Arama86n congratulating? To the Nazis?

P.S. For now Round 1 of Ukrainian crisis has ended but the crisis is far from over, there will be few more rounds this year.

Huffington Post had a fun article about how the protest has become more nationalist and anti-Semitic:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/oleksandr ... 88507.html

Does the OP imply that he supports this? Most likely not, but it's interesting to compare his romantic vision of "the people rising up" with neo-fascists and anti-Semites rising up.

[chang50]

Sometimes it's not easy to see who the good guys are,Syria is another good example of this..

[mrswdk]

Seeing as this is Eastern Europe we're talking about we have to remain open to the idea that a bunch of neo-fascists and anti-Semites actually are pretty representative.

If Ukraine elects a fascist party and the fascists turn Ukraine into a fascist state then does Ukraine continue to count as a democracy, seeing as everyone voted for fascism?

[patches70]

As I was reading the news-feed about Ukraine a few minutes ago tears came unbidden to my eyes, something that surprises me more than anyone, as it's a very very rare thing for me. In a way, that in itself makes me sad because the people of Ukraine are hardly the only ones suffering out there, and I don't exactly sit every morning and shed tears for the people of numerous counties in Africa or Asia that deserve them just as much or more. But ofc, that is understandable, for if one was to continually reflect over the atrocities of the world, then one would not have time for much else than tears.

Whatever the case, it would seem the people of Ukraine are going to get their will through, to some degree anyway. And it is a truly fantastic thing to see democracy at work. And I don't mean elections, that sort of democracy is simply the best we have, but oh so flawed. I mean the people taking to the streets as if it was the 18th century and demanding that their will be obliged, risking injury or death.
I sincerely hope that if the day should come in Sweden that I have the courage to face the bullets.

People of Ukraine, I salute you!

Look upon this moment. Savor it! Rejoice with great gladness! Great gladness! Remember it always, for you are joined by it. You are One, under the stars. Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, "I was there that night!" For it is the doom of men that they forget.
Merlin

[oVo]

People of Ukraine, I salute you!

and hope for the best.

Put the stereotypes momentarily out of your mind mrswdk,
quit jumping to conclusions and let's just see where this goes.

[DoomYoshi]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

"God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion."
-T. Jefferson

[BigBallinStalin]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

"God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion."
-T. Jefferson

Why doesn't a revolution happen every 20 years? Should be easy enough for "the people" to pull that off, right?

[RiskTycoon]

what burns me is I don't think the original post was there to provoke you guys into this discussion.

You can have your own ideas but to come here and almost belittle someone for feeling for another human and basically
saying they haven't a clue what is going on is pretty much ignorant on your part no matter how informed you like to
pretend you are.

The post was put out there by someone who felt the need to say something after an emotional episode.

Not to mention with your attitude of know all you are just an insignificant rant that hasn't a feeling
of human compassion. Just the need to boost your own feeling of self worth by pretending you are informed.

[DoomYoshi]

what burns me is I don't think the original post was there to provoke you guys into this discussion.

You can have your own ideas but to come here and almost belittle someone for feeling for another human and basically
saying they haven't a clue what is going on is pretty much ignorant on your part no matter how informed you like to
pretend you are.

The post was put out there by someone who felt the need to say something after an emotional episode.

Not to mention with your attitude of know all you are just an insignificant rant that hasn't a feeling
of human compassion. Just the need to boost your own feeling of self worth by pretending you are informed.

So...

[saxitoxin]

quit jumping to conclusions and let's just see where this goes.

said von Papen to Hindenberg

[BigBallinStalin]

what burns me is I don't think the original post was there to provoke you guys into this discussion.

You can have your own ideas but to come here and almost belittle someone for feeling for another human and basically
saying they haven't a clue what is going on is pretty much ignorant on your part no matter how informed you like to
pretend you are.

The post was put out there by someone who felt the need to say something after an emotional episode.

Not to mention with your attitude of know all you are just an insignificant rant that hasn't a feeling
of human compassion. Just the need to boost your own feeling of self worth by pretending you are informed.

[GoranZ]

what burns me is I don't think the original post was there to provoke you guys into this discussion.

You can have your own ideas but to come here and almost belittle someone for feeling for another human and basically
saying they haven't a clue what is going on is pretty much ignorant on your part no matter how informed you like to
pretend you are.

The post was put out there by someone who felt the need to say something after an emotional episode.

Not to mention with your attitude of know all you are just an insignificant rant that hasn't a feeling
of human compassion. Just the need to boost your own feeling of self worth by pretending you are informed.

What emotional episode, where did you get that idea from?

Some things are common knowledge, so you can be informed as everyone else(We don't want you to get emotional episodes, they lead you to wrong conclusions)
1. Government established from rebellion can never be considered as democratic... True Democrats know that in order for one government to be recognized as democratic its legitimacy must come from free elections, but never from rebellion.
2. Prorussian government in Ukraine was legitimately elected few years ago, on elections that no one found illegal.
3. Nacis did most of the dirty work last 2-3 months in Kiev.

[saxitoxin]

The bitch is back. Apparently "opposition leader" Yulia Tymoshenko has broken out of jail and is now in Kiev ready to take over the government on behalf of the "protesters."

Back in 2009 this is what Foreign Policy wrote about her brief term as Prime Minister ...

Tymoshenko is quite a different breed of politician -- a fiery speaker and a shrewdly manipulative populist, an avowed admirer of Eva Peron who seems to believe more in the force of her own theatrics than in the niceties of democratic give-and-take. One of her close advisors was fired when he refused to go along with her party's policy of using noisemakers to drown out opponents in parliament.

And yet this is the same woman who's known, at other times, to have created opaque structures that funneled profits from the lucrative energy sector to her cronies. During the privatization battles of the 1990s, Tymoshenko formed a close alliance with Pavel Lazarenko, who was later convicted of money-laundering in a U.S. court. At one point, thanks to her gas-related maneuverings, she may have controlled as much as 20 percent of the country's gross national product.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... et_over_it

Welcome to your future, Ukraine -

[Phatscotty]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

why can't it be mutual exploitation? ie win-win or at least better than the alternative

[Phatscotty]

I am under no illusion that there will be some hollywood ending, there never is.
The point is the here and now, the moment: The police have backed off, the president has fled, and the people seemingly have their victory. Ofc things will revert back to the usual corrupt "democracy" sooner or later, but this moment, today, is beautiful. They have risked their lives to try and DO something about their situation. To try and change the course their country is on, and for better or for worse they have done so.
But if one cannot see greatness in the rise of the people, then... well then one has taken cynicism a level to far in my opinion.
Yes, one can argue that it's all pointless, that those with vision know what it will revert back to sooner rather than later. but that is missing the point.

I feel you bro

[Phatscotty]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

"God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion."
-T. Jefferson

Why doesn't a revolution happen every 20 years? Should be easy enough for "the people" to pull that off, right?

We have cultural revolutions

[Dukasaur]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

"God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion."
-T. Jefferson

Why doesn't a revolution happen every 20 years? Should be easy enough for "the people" to pull that off, right?

We have cultural revolutions

So does China!

[Phatscotty]

what burns me is I don't think the original post was there to provoke you guys into this discussion.

You can have your own ideas but to come here and almost belittle someone for feeling for another human and basically
saying they haven't a clue what is going on is pretty much ignorant on your part.

The post was put out there by someone who felt the need to say something after an emotional episode.

....and we didn't even have to talk in secret or conspire coordination.

[BigBallinStalin]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

why can't it be mutual exploitation? ie win-win or at least better than the alternative

If you can explain how those coercive exchanges will be positive-sum, I'd be interested in reading about it.

[BigBallinStalin]

What's so great about a small minority pushing out one set of exploiters for another set of exploiters? Why do so many possess that romantic vision of the vaguely defined 'democracy'?

"God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion."
-T. Jefferson

Why doesn't a revolution happen every 20 years? Should be easy enough for "the people" to pull that off, right?

We have cultural revolutions

Go on...