Congratulations people of Crimea

[patches70]

And in very recent events (in the last hour) units of the Russian 76th Chernihov division have landed in Crimea. The Ukraine acting president is claiming that 2,000 Russian troops have just invaded the Ukraine.

The 76th is a famous division. If we recall it was elements of the 76th that went into Georgia and kicked the shit out of the Georgians. This is a full time, professional division, not a bunch of conscripts.

Oh Christ, I bet Reuters is already getting their boilerplate atrocity stories ready.

[INSERT VICTIM COUNTRY] is reeling from a [INSERT BELLIGERENT COUNTRY] invasion that White House officials claimed have left more than [CHOOSE ONE: 10,000 / 100,000 / one million] civilians dead and thousands more [CHOOSE ONE: HOMELESS / HUNGRY / HOMOSEXUAL]. A State Department source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said U.S. satellite photos showed scenes of devastation as [INSERT BELLIGERENT COUNTRY]'s troops [INSERT ONE: RAPED / RAMPAGED / REGURGITATED] their way across [INSERT VICTIM COUNTRY].

Without a doubt.

[The Bison King]

Indeed this is getting interested.

As for that show of hands, definitely count me out. They can settle this matter on their own. It sounds like Crimea, doesn't want to be a part of the new Ukraine, so why should we stand in their way. Like you said theres pretty much nothing Ukraine can do about it. Sure it's important to Ukraine but what significance is a small peninsula to the rest of the world. Certainly not enough to start a war over.

Nah way, preserve the balance. Let it play out.

I like this quote:

If we are really all about democracy then why not sit back and let the referendums be and let the chips fall where the people want them?

[DoomYoshi]

Thanks to Reuters, I now have a use for the word I invented: homelessexual

(patent pending)

[Phatscotty]

Indeed this is getting interested.

As for that show of hands, definitely count me out. They can settle this matter on their own. It sounds like Crimea, doesn't want to be a part of the new Ukraine, so why should we stand in their way. Like you said theres pretty much nothing Ukraine can do about it. Sure it's important to Ukraine but what significance is a small peninsula to the rest of the world. Certainly not enough to start a war over.

Nah way, preserve the balance. Let it play out.

I like this quote:

If we are really all about democracy then why not sit back and let the referendums be and let the chips fall where the people want them?

they are rebalancing the natural gas pipelines and Black sea ports.

Sweet drop

[AslanTheKing]

Russians have sent 2000 special troops to crimea five hours ago,
there is certainly something big cooking there,
i dont know how much EU and Nato want to do,
but one thing is for sure,
they cant just open a bag of popcorn and watch.

[BigBallinStalin]

Map o' Fukraine?

[GoranZ]

American... always intentionally missing what matters the most.
Crimean peninsula was Russian for almost 2 centuries until Soviets gifted it to Ukraine in 1954 as token of friendship between Ukrainian and Russian nations... Thats why majority of the population is from Russian origin. Now if Ukraine wants to turn their back on Russia they should return the gift, at least that's how Russian eyes see the current situation.

I'm not sure what your first sentence means, I was just telling The Bison King what was going on is all, cause he asked. I'm not missing anything.

You missed this(or better said everything)... http://youtu.be/hTIw_hw2Z_g

As it stands now the EU is an economic dictatorship, something the Greeks learned the hard way as she has been systematically plundered by Brussels and living under technocrat rule for years now.

Word.

But virtually the entire world lives under economic dictators of one kind or another, for the most part but that's a completely different subject.

At least we in most Western nations have a greater degree of democratic representation at the highest levels of government compared to the EU. MEPs Daniel Hannan and Nigel Farage have been preaching about this for years.

By accident or artifice it's increasingly appearing Russia may have totally outmaneuvered the United States.

Two months ago Russia was looking at economic integration with rich eastern Ukraine and her ugly step-sister poor western Ukraine.

Today it's looking at economic integration with rich Ukraine only, while saddling the EU with the albatros of a newly landlocked poor Ukraine.

The U.S.' European client states will spin this as a major win because of freedom, even as their bank accounts are being drained trying to support Europe's newest third-world hell hole. In Britain, the UKIP will use the specter of new EU equity transfers to the rump Ukrainian state to help win over more voters, further endangering one of America's beachheads in the EU Commission; this situation will repeat elsewhere. This may be the biggest blunder for the U.S. in 30 years.

I agree with everything you say except the part about it being a US blunder. Obviously this isn't a positive development as it relates to the West/US, but what could/should they have done differently? I wouldn't support military intervention and would be critical of large financial aid as well, considering the current situation in the US & EU.

Probably nothing. This was a brilliant strategic play by Russia. The U.S. was simply outclassed at every level. All alternative actions the U.S. could take would still result in a likely Russian win, the only difference being the degree of victory. It appears Russia's best friends through this whole thing were the useful idiots in the anti-Russian opposition. Had it not been for them, Yanucovich wouldn't have been toppled and the stage wouldn't be set to amputate the bad Ukraine and dump it in the EU's lap while Russia takes good Ukraine to the bank.

The funniest part is how U.S. media is still running this story as "Ukraine slipping away from Russia" and "Russia making a last ditch attempt to keep Ukraine." If they watch the NBC Nightly News in the Kremlin, they must be dying of laughter. After you extract the wealth and population of eastern Ukraine, what's left for the EU is a country twice the size of the Netherlands but with the per capita GDP of Nicaragua.

What you said is all true except one thing... This is EU's mess not US one, that's why they are outmaneuvered. Of course EU will pay the bill for this endevour. I think that US never truly wanted Ukraine for themselves, US were always supper happy with the undecided status(Not with Russia and not with EU/US).

Really EU never was and probably never will be force that other will consider as equal... I mean the problems with Greece were top news headlines for 5 years instead one simple sentence "Yes there was a problem with one of our members but we solved it" demonstrate its abilities.

[mrswdk]

the problems with Greece were top news headlines for 5 years instead one simple sentence "Yes there was a problem with one of our members but we solved it"

You might be surprised how few problems can be solved that quickly.

[GoranZ]

the problems with Greece were top news headlines for 5 years instead one simple sentence "Yes there was a problem with one of our members but we solved it"

You might be surprised how few problems can be solved that quickly.

Economical problems usually don't come suddenly... So if someone is choosing to ignore the signals then its quite justified suddenly to be left without money(actually it will be suddenly for him but it wont be for the others).
So when ever some sign appear preparations for the bad outcome should start. Then you will have solution that is solved quickly for everyone, except for those that actually solved it.

[mrswdk]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Greece's various mishaps, but one thing that added to the scale of their collapse was the fact that they'd been including black economy money in their official GDP figures, thus inflating them. Which would mean the rest of the EU wasn't informed enough to fully anticipate all the possible effects of a Greek collapse.

[BigBallinStalin]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Greece's various mishaps, but one thing that added to the scale of their collapse was the fact that they'd been including black economy money in their official GDP figures, thus inflating them. Which would mean the rest of the EU wasn't informed enough to fully anticipate all the possible effects of a Greek collapse.

Um... if you could accurately include black market sales as GDP figures, then you're actually stating a closer value to one's real GDP. GDP is the value of final sales per year within one's country. Measurements of GDP typically underestimate the true GDP because they tend to not include black market activities, cash exchanged under the table (babysitting), the labor value of stay-at-home parents, etc.

Greece was bullshitting its numbers to get into the EU and was bullshitting them throughout its stay. Other than being fraudulent, its biggest problem was spending more than it earned. Some talk of tax evasion, but tax evasion doesn't matter if the government doesn't spend more than it has. It's just simply bad politics which continued their deficit spending to win over voters and to put their employees in select bureaucracies. Also, the financial crisis didn't help, but it's not like their scheme was sustainable.

[muy_thaiguy]

Well, something big may be about to go down in the Ukraine. UN to meet Monday on what to do.

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-approves-m ... 15025.html

[patches70]

In the city of Kharkiv, pro Russia protesters have stormed the city administration building. Kiev is about to lose control of another city and province. Kharkiv is located just a few miles from the Russian border and is home to some of Ukraine's biggest mega corporations and industrial companies.

Not only that, and you might not hear about this in US media, but there are anti government protests (anti this new government that just seized power via coup) in Odessa, Dnipro and Donetsk. Donetsk is Yanukovich's home town by the way.

Ukraine is in a real pickle now. If they try to stop all this with force that will give the Russians all the justification they need to give the new government in Kiev a good face stomping as there are a fair number of Russian citizens living in the Ukraine. And before people jump all over Russia for this, this is the exact same reasoning the US used for it's invasion of Grenada if you recall. To protect American citizens there. I know, that was a long time ago and people have likely forgotten all about that, but much more recently was Russia smacking Georgia for the exact same reasoning, to protect Russian citizens.

Maybe the Ass. Sec of State was right about the boxer not getting a position of power, Klitschko is calling for a Ukrainian military mobilization. He wants to fight the Russians! Hahahaha!

Yeah, well he's going to have some problems with that because the Ukrainian military isn't going to fight the Russians, they see each other as comrades so to speak. There are close ties between the Ukrainian military and the Russian military, it's not likely that the Ukrainian military is going to be willing to put up much of a fight against Russian forces. Not that they'd stand a chance anyway.

Yep, Ukraine is falling apart along ethno nationalist lines. The Russian speaking people don't want anything to do with this new government that took power via coup.

If people would just be honest that Yanukovich was ousted by a coup, a very undemocratic means, then a lot of this could have been avoided. As it stands we had McCain cheer leading the coup and calling it "democracy". This is the kind of stuff that ends up getting a whole lot of people killed. The opposition should have gone with the peaceful option they were provided with instead of opting for violence.
Yanukovich provided the means for a peaceful resolution to this weeks ago with the offers of coalition government with the final result to be determined by electoral vote later. This new government in Kiev could have taken power by actually getting the votes instead of storming the Bastille so to speak. It didn't turn out well for the French Revolution and it won't turn out well for this one.

So, should Obama, the UN, the new government in Kiev and the rest of the world let Democracy be and allow for referendums and let that decide or should it be decided by the bayonet?

[patches70]

Well, something big may be about to go down in the Ukraine. UN to meet Monday on what to do.

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-approves-m ... 15025.html

What can the UN do? Russia has a permanent seat on the Security council, and veto power over any measure.

[DoomYoshi]

Yep, Ukraine is falling apart along ethno nationalist lines. The Russian speaking people don't want anything to do with this new government that took power via coup.

If people would just be honest that Yanukovich was ousted by a coup, a very undemocratic means, then a lot of this could have been avoided.

Paragraph 1 is false. Klitschko speaks Russian at home with his wife. As he has admitted, he speaks better German than Ukrainian, klitschko is the Russian people, everyone else is just a wannabe.

Which people do you want to be honest?

Why do you keep brining up McCain? Isn't he a failed presidential candidate? What the f*ck does he have to do with anything? He hasn't been on the news for 3 years at least.

[AndyDufresne]

MyAtomic Platters cold war mix is really going to get some more play now.


--Andy

[patches70]

Why do you keep brining up McCain? Isn't he a failed presidential candidate? What the f*ck does he have to do with anything? He hasn't been on the news for 3 years at least.

I'm bringing him up because American politicians, including Obama, cheer lead like idiots and it results in needless deaths. To the American government it wasn't a coup in Ukraine, it was democracy in action.
Remember back to Egypt, the military runs the country no matter who is in office. They get sick of Morsi and then boot him out of power and arrest him. It was a coup, there is no other word to describe it. Sec of State Kerry comes out and says it's not a coup but the Egyptian military is "restoring democracy".

So we get this coup in Ukraine and the politicians start jumping up yelling Democracy and get a bunch of people riled up to support the "democratic" movement and as a result we are seeing the consequences of a coup. War, civil strife and chaos.

Paragraph 1 is false. Klitschko speaks Russian at home with his wife. As he has admitted, he speaks better German than Ukrainian, klitschko is the Russian people, everyone else is just a wannabe.

You doubt what I said? Then take it up with Reuters. I don't know what Klitschko's angle is but whatever it is he better hope the counter coup doesn't succeed before he gets whatever it is he wants.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 6460,d.b2I

Which people do you want to be honest?

I want the people who were "outstanding! The Ukrainian people are finally standing up for themselves!" to be honest. They got their opinion from propaganda. There is plenty of it being thrown around, but calling a coup "democracy" is about as far from honest as one can get.

Just call a coup a coup and understand what kind of people it is that launches coups. Power hungry mongers who are willing to sacrifice lives so that they can take control today instead of winning power through elections based in ideas.

The people who took Kiev couldn't risk actually being voted into power, thus the reason they turned down all requests of power sharing and compromise.
Aren't we supposed to be big on compromise? Well, things are spiraling now to the point where compromise is going to be very difficult and the result is going to be a lot of deaths.
Will those who were cheering all this on in the beginning accept responsibility for their small part in the deaths that follow?

One of the very few things I've ever actually approved of from Obama was when he kept his mouth shut during the not so long ago Iranian revolt a few years ago. The Republicans were calling him names for not at least supporting the movement publicly. It would have served no purpose, it was doomed to failure. To egg them on would only increase the death toll. Not to mention it wasn't any of our business anyway!

Unless the US is ready to go to war to support the coup then we should shut the hell up and stay out of the mess all together. But the politicians have to constantly redefine things like what "coup" means so they can appear pro democracy as if that's some sort of catch all of redeeming qualities in a politician.

[patches70]

And Doom, after thinking about it, I think I might understand your confusion about McCain. As in, you probably didn't know that McCain went to the Ukraine, back in December he was in the Ukraine meeting with protesters.



While there he told Ukrainians that their destiny "lay in Europe". He said- "We are here to support your just cause, the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently. And the destiny you seek lies in Europe"

Emboldening, eh? With the implied promise that "we" (as in the US) would stand with the protesters.

You probably don't remember way back when, when Russia invaded Georgia. McCain said the famous "We are all Georgian, now". Ha! I'm not Georgian, but whatever. It was nice of him to offer such words of support to Georgia while Russia kicked them like a mangy dog while the US just watched. It's not like we could have or would have done anything anyway.

Just like the Ukraine.

Now what's McCain's angle? Why did he have to go in stirring the pot? For who's benefit? Certainly not the protesters. He just egged them on into a mob frenzy. Sure, they took Kiev, but they are about to lose half of the Ukraine that didn't want to go in with all that coup business in the first place! Was McCain speaking for all those people as well?
Did McCain warn the protesters that they are risking confrontation with Russia and that if such a confrontation happened that the US wasn't going to be able to do anything about it?
Would that knowledge have mattered anyway?

I don't know, but wouldn't it be nice if people would just take a minute and think "hold on a minute...."?

So I am compelled to remember such things that apparently you either forgot about or didn't know about. What did you say? That McCain hadn't been in the news for years? He was in the news when he was in Kiev Square egging on the protesters to launch a coup! Oh, sorry about that, to launch Democracy.

What a hoot.

[BigBallinStalin]

Now what's McCain's angle? Why did he have to go in stirring the pot? For who's benefit? Certainly not the protesters. He just egged them on into a mob frenzy. Sure, they took Kiev, but they are about to lose half of the Ukraine that didn't want to go in with all that coup business in the first place! Was McCain speaking for all those people as well?
Did McCain warn the protesters that they are risking confrontation with Russia and that if such a confrontation happened that the US wasn't going to be able to do anything about it?
Would that knowledge have mattered anyway?

I don't know, but wouldn't it be nice if people would just take a minute and think "hold on a minute...."?

It seems that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians did use their brains, but unfortunately they fell prey to a bunch of useful idiots and rent-seekers. Some may object to the claim that a minority swayed political change in Ukraine by citing some survey, but I'm not convinced about a survey which asks people to verbally express support for whoever (who cares; the cost of anonymous words is negligible). In hindsight, it seems that a lot of Westerners were being childish about this event.

[patches70]

And before people start with the "Well Russia shouldn't have their nose it it either!" Let's go back to McCain again, shall we? He said these exact words on December 15, 2013 while in Ukraine-

There's no doubt that Ukraine is of vital importance to Putin. I think it was [Henry] Kissinger, I'm not sure, said that Russia, without Ukraine it's an eastern power, with Ukraine it's a western power. This is the beginning of Russia, right here in Kiev. So Putin views it as most highly important

And there you have it, straight from the dodgy odd foggy's mouth. "Kiev is the beginning of Russia". Hell, Russia has actual national interests in Ukraine. What are the United States interests in Ukraine?
McCain is right for once on that, though. The Ukraine is very important to Russia.

For those who just dismiss Russia's involvement in Ukraine is to deny the truth that Ukraine falls squarely within the realm of Russian influence. To deny that is to deny the US' realms of interest in the world. Unless one is dishonest that is.

The US certainly has vital interests in the world, so acknowledge Russia's interests as well. Instead of just buying into whatever propaganda is spouted at any given moment, take a moment to step back and try to actually understand.

What's going to happen in Ukraine is a direct result of the coup. If one supported the coup and didn't realize what the price of that coup was going to be, then shame on them for not understanding. And you also support and agree with John freaking McCain, the old bastard who sang "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" to the tune of the Beach Boys like a doddering fool.
Good Job!

And damned be to those who think for a minute we (as in the US) should go stepping in there with military force against Russia on the side of people who took power by force to begin with.

Remember the cold war is over, but the need to create bogey men appears to be in full swing.

[DoomYoshi]

I guess it depends what news you read. McCain never made it into any of my feeds.

[patches70]

Now what's McCain's angle? Why did he have to go in stirring the pot? For who's benefit? Certainly not the protesters. He just egged them on into a mob frenzy. Sure, they took Kiev, but they are about to lose half of the Ukraine that didn't want to go in with all that coup business in the first place! Was McCain speaking for all those people as well?
Did McCain warn the protesters that they are risking confrontation with Russia and that if such a confrontation happened that the US wasn't going to be able to do anything about it?
Would that knowledge have mattered anyway?

I don't know, but wouldn't it be nice if people would just take a minute and think "hold on a minute...."?

It seems that the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians did use their brains, but unfortunately they fell prey to a bunch of useful idiots and rent-seekers. Some may object to the claim that a minority swayed political change in Ukraine by citing some survey, but I'm not convinced about a survey which asks people to verbally express support for whoever (who cares; the cost of anonymous words is negligible). In hindsight, it seems that a lot of Westerners were being childish about this event.

Go tell Yoshi that. Or better yet, go tell McCain and the rest of the politicians in DC to shut the f*ck up. I'd rather them figure out new ways to waste our money bickering with each other here without getting a bunch of people killed on the other side of the world for no good reason.

I feel bad for the Ukrainians, but the actions of this current government and their supporters in the last few months, all I can see is they've brought this on themselves. I'm ashamed of the role our own politicians had in this debacle. That's what happens when we let the neocon, tranzi interventionalists run off at the mouth and even worse, have some power!
It ain't our job to remake the world in our image. We don't have the ability, the wisdom or frankly the ideal situation to make such decisions for people everywhere.
Let people and countries figure their own shit out.

If we want people around the world to be more like us, the best way to do it is to simply provide the example. And the example our nation has been giving of late is pretty piss poor IMO.
"Remove the plank in your own eye before removing the splinter from your neighbor's eye."

[DoomYoshi]

Tell me what?

[patches70]

I guess it depends what news you read. McCain never made it into any of my feeds.

And that's my fault somehow that you don't know what's going on? What the hell do you think I'm trying to do now? Why don't you just ask honest questions and I'll answer them to the best of my ability if you want to actually learn more instead of trying for some sort of gotcha interwebz trolling BS?

And what about Klitschko, any comment to the evidence I offered that he is indeed calling for mobilization in Ukraine? Or do you still have some sort of problem with my simple reporting of his actual freaking words?