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Congratulations people of Crimea

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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby Pope Joan on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:49 am

GoranZ wrote:
Pope Joan wrote:Their ideal outcome would be a larger degree of autonomy, large investment, and a transparent, democratically elected local government. It is not immediately clear how they should play their hand but they are not doing it right.

Why they are not doing that right? Because they are making a referendum instead of rebellion like their former EU sponsored countrymen?


IMHO, they should have stuck to their original referendum, scheduled on 25/3/2014 about return to the 1992 constitution. That one would be harder for the international community to reject as illegal, and give them enough autonomy to conduct their own affairs, more international legitimacy and a safe arm length from the russian big brother.

saxitoxin wrote:McCain calls for U.S. to go to war against Russia.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... ?hpt=hp_t2

As horrible as a president Barack Obama is, the U.S. dodged a bullet by not electing John McCain in 2008. The election of Obama over McCain proves the validity of Condorcet's Jury Theorum. McCain is a total nutzoid. He clearly has all of his screws loose and should not be in the Senate or even the Phoenix Municipal Water Board.
.

McCain never stood a chance. All sorts of clowns of minor political relevance are trying to make political capital on the crisis:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572015/Russian-Embassy-denies-country-deployed-forces-Ukraine-extraordinary-Twitter-exchange-Louise-Mensch.html
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby GoranZ on Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:11 pm

Pope Joan wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
Pope Joan wrote:Their ideal outcome would be a larger degree of autonomy, large investment, and a transparent, democratically elected local government. It is not immediately clear how they should play their hand but they are not doing it right.

Why they are not doing that right? Because they are making a referendum instead of rebellion like their former EU sponsored countrymen?


IMHO, they should have stuck to their original referendum, scheduled on 25/3/2014 about return to the 1992 constitution. That one would be harder for the international community to reject as illegal, and give them enough autonomy to conduct their own affairs, more international legitimacy and a safe arm length from the russian big brother.

Illegal, yea rite :D 83.5% voter turnout and 93% of them voted for merger with Russia, all western politicians can dream of such high voters percentage. Interesting but good part of nonRussians also voted for merger with Russia.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:36 pm

The dictator of Ukraine has said "the ground will burn under their [the people of Crimea's] feet" because of the democratic referendum.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... E820140316

So, yeah, that's the lunatic Obama and the EUnuchs are supporting.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby Pope Joan on Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:01 pm

GoranZ wrote:
Pope Joan wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
Pope Joan wrote:Their ideal outcome would be a larger degree of autonomy, large investment, and a transparent, democratically elected local government. It is not immediately clear how they should play their hand but they are not doing it right.

Why they are not doing that right? Because they are making a referendum instead of rebellion like their former EU sponsored countrymen?


IMHO, they should have stuck to their original referendum, scheduled on 25/3/2014 about return to the 1992 constitution. That one would be harder for the international community to reject as illegal, and give them enough autonomy to conduct their own affairs, more international legitimacy and a safe arm length from the russian big brother.

Illegal, yea rite :D 83.5% voter turnout and 93% of them voted for merger with Russia, all western politicians can dream of such high voters percentage. Interesting but good part of nonRussians also voted for merger with Russia.


It was not me who called it illegal but giving only 10 days to campaign without giving the other side a chance to campaign and completely skewed questions does not help their case. The point is that the pro-Russian campaign would have won this referendum anyway anytime, so they should have taken their time and let a proper democratic debate to be had...
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:53 pm

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Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby tzor on Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:30 pm

chang50 wrote: Perhaps he has never really recovered from his POW experiences,he did pick that dreadful Palin woman after all..


I think it is a combination of establishment syndrome and old fart nostalgia.

As for Palin, she should have told him to go shove it and refuse to run as VP. I don't think McCain wanted to win anyway. Had he won he would have been out of office (and thus power) in eight years as opposed to the senate where he could be a Senator until he died. Why did he run then? Well look at what happened afterwards. He used his unused presidential campaign contributions to outspend his primary opponent for the senate ten to one. He ran for the money. Given that, and his exceptionally stupid political advisers, Palin was ill prepared to face a hostile media that wanted to crucify her because she did not fit the media mantra that all women/minorities are liberal progressive. It is ironic that the only "stupid" quote most people know from Palin actually comes from a comedian who impersonated her and not Palin herself. (She never said "I can see Russia from my house.")
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby saxitoxin on Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:56 pm

tzor wrote:Palin was ill prepared to face a hostile media that wanted to crucify her


She shoulda started ringin' those bells and sendin' those warnin' shots (and bells)! :P

Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:51 am

Pope Joan wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
Pope Joan wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
Pope Joan wrote:Their ideal outcome would be a larger degree of autonomy, large investment, and a transparent, democratically elected local government. It is not immediately clear how they should play their hand but they are not doing it right.

Why they are not doing that right? Because they are making a referendum instead of rebellion like their former EU sponsored countrymen?


IMHO, they should have stuck to their original referendum, scheduled on 25/3/2014 about return to the 1992 constitution. That one would be harder for the international community to reject as illegal, and give them enough autonomy to conduct their own affairs, more international legitimacy and a safe arm length from the russian big brother.

Illegal, yea rite :D 83.5% voter turnout and 93% of them voted for merger with Russia, all western politicians can dream of such high voters percentage. Interesting but good part of nonRussians also voted for merger with Russia.


It was not me who called it illegal but giving only 10 days to campaign without giving the other side a chance to campaign and completely skewed questions does not help their case. The point is that the pro-Russian campaign would have won this referendum anyway anytime, so they should have taken their time and let a proper democratic debate to be had...

we see how US bring democracy in Iraq-Libya-Afghanistan.
And if i read correct in US people not directly decide who will be president, instead some delegates decide that. So instead that President become person who get most people vote,,you can get president who have less people votes.

(2000 presidential Election in US,, Al Gore had 500000 votes more then Bush, but BUsh become president??? )
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:08 am

Good ol' Qwert! Pictorial representation of his post.

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--Andy
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:32 am

AndyDufresne wrote:Good ol' Qwert! Pictorial representation of his post.

Image


--Andy


I understand your mocking,, because you dont have any normal argument who will defend US intervention in Iraq_afghanistan_Libya.
If in Iraq live several milions of US citizens, then US invasion will have some legal reason(protection of US people), but when Russia try to protect hes own people in Crimea, then this its ilegal?
And when we compare how much US soldier kill Iraq civilians, and how much Russian soldiers kill Crimeans, then you can realised how US forced democracy could be very dangerous for people.
Putin dont send drones, and dont bombard civilians,like US do.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:45 am

Qwert wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Good ol' Qwert! Pictorial representation of his post.

Image


--Andy


I understand your mocking,, because you dont have any normal argument who will defend US intervention in Iraq_afghanistan_Libya.
If in Iraq live several milions of US citizens, then US invasion will have some legal reason(protection of US people), but when Russia try to protect hes own people in Crimea, then this its ilegal?
And when we compare how much US soldier kill Iraq civilians, and how much Russian soldiers kill Crimeans, then you can realised how US forced democracy could be very dangerous for people.
Putin dont send drones, and dont bombard civilians,like US do.


I don't think Andy was mocking you. One can win the US presidential election without winning the popular vote because each state has a certain amount of electoral college votes. I believe it was created, at least partially, to avoid tyranny of the majority.

Most US citizens either don't care or don't know. The ones that know and care don't have enough clout to do anything about it. For example, I care because, selfishly, I don't like the cost in lives and dollars associated with these types of activities that the United States regularly engages. But I don't care enough to do anything about it other than to vote for people who won't prosecute costly wars or engagements for no discernible national interest. Unfortunately, the people who won't prosecute costly wars or engagements with no discernible national interest generally aren't members of the Republican or Democratic parties.

To sum up - Andy wasn't mocking you. A lot of us don't like it either. There's not much we can do about it.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby rishaed on Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:48 am

thegreekdog wrote:
Qwert wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:Good ol' Qwert! Pictorial representation of his post.

Image


--Andy


I understand your mocking,, because you dont have any normal argument who will defend US intervention in Iraq_afghanistan_Libya.
If in Iraq live several milions of US citizens, then US invasion will have some legal reason(protection of US people), but when Russia try to protect hes own people in Crimea, then this its ilegal?
And when we compare how much US soldier kill Iraq civilians, and how much Russian soldiers kill Crimeans, then you can realised how US forced democracy could be very dangerous for people.
Putin dont send drones, and dont bombard civilians,like US do.


I don't think Andy was mocking you. One can win the US presidential election without winning the popular vote because each state has a certain amount of electoral college votes. I believe it was created, at least partially, to avoid tyranny of the majority.

Most US citizens either don't care or don't know. The ones that know and care don't have enough clout to do anything about it. For example, I care because, selfishly, I don't like the cost in lives and dollars associated with these types of activities that the United States regularly engages. But I don't care enough to do anything about it other than to vote for people who won't prosecute costly wars or engagements for no discernible national interest. Unfortunately, the people who won't prosecute costly wars or engagements with no discernible national interest generally aren't members of the Republican or Democratic parties.

To sum up - Andy wasn't mocking you. A lot of us don't like it either. There's not much we can do about it.

This. Simply put the tune doesn't change for who you vote for, so either voting D/R doesn't do anything. The only thing I might consider voting for would be the local governments or state governments. It seems the only thing that being one of the most educated (colleges anyways) countries in the world is that our politicians are among the smartest crooks in the world.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby mrswdk on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:00 pm

Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:31 pm

mrswdk wrote:Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.


If Crimea wanted a referendum to leave the Ukraine, why did they wait until now for it? Wouldn't a year between 1991 and 2013 been suitable? The referendum is at gun point.

inb4 'merica hypocrisy.

Until you can show me why America should be treated equally in any sense, that argument has no merit.

Let's say you have 2 daughters. One daughter gets As in school, is in a church youth group and is pretty much perfect except she listens to Rush Limbaugh. She asks for $200 to serve as a float at a charity gala.
The other daughter is a crack whore before she is 12 and brings home a random "boyfirend" to meet at 16 and asks for $200 for "groceries".

Why should you treat them the same?

It is not like USA and Russia are totally pristine newcomers onto the geopolitical scene. I am allowed (and it would be unreasonable not to) treat them differently.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby mrswdk on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:46 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.


If Crimea wanted a referendum to leave the Ukraine, why did they wait until now for it? Wouldn't a year between 1991 and 2013 been suitable? The referendum is at gun point.


I imagine they would say that at no point between 1991 and 2013 has there been a time when their president has been forced from office at gun point.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby muy_thaiguy on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:55 pm

mrswdk wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.


If Crimea wanted a referendum to leave the Ukraine, why did they wait until now for it? Wouldn't a year between 1991 and 2013 been suitable? The referendum is at gun point.


I imagine they would say that at no point between 1991 and 2013 has there been a time when their president has been forced from office at gun point.

Actually, he ran as soon as shots were fired (both police and protestors, if I remember right), none at him.

I guess he didn't like people questioning his actions?
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:59 pm

Guys, I think we're setting a dangerous precedent here.

For instance, I was playing Europa Universalis 4 -- I was playing as an ahistorical Byzatine Empire that conquered the Ottomans, spanning from Bosnia to Judea, to Tehran to surrounding the Black Sea (thus Crimea was a part of my empire).

Unfortunately, while I was expanding my empire in all other directions other than Muscovy / Russia, they managed to gobble up Lithuania, Finland, and parts and Norway and Sweden -- not to mention most of Central Asia.

They were tremendously powerful, and they got to a point where they essentially overran my border and defense with 'claims' that my provinces around the Black Sea, which I had own for a couple hundred years, were rightly theirs.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, they invaded Ukraine and started breaking it up, piece by piece.

Moral of the story, they took back the lands by force, and there is nothing stopping them from a global empire unless I band together with Serbia, Hungary, Persia, Sweden, the Timurids, and maybe the Ming and Manchu empires in the Far East, and perhaps what remains of Poland. A weak Holy Roman Empire (the german confederation) isn't helping, since they don't see Russia as threat.

Beware guys, beware.


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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby DoomYoshi on Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:02 pm

mrswdk wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.


If Crimea wanted a referendum to leave the Ukraine, why did they wait until now for it? Wouldn't a year between 1991 and 2013 been suitable? The referendum is at gun point.


I imagine they would say that at no point between 1991 and 2013 has there been a time when their president has been forced from office at gun point.


In 2004 Yuschenko was poisoned and the election had to be repeated. That's pretty similar.

And it's hardly "at gunpoint". Since 2004, there has been a demonstration in the Maidan every few months, and constantly since Tymoshenko was imprisoned. The square is basically for demonstrations in the past ten years. The only reason this whole thing turned political and international is because Yanukovich ordered the police to shoot at the protestors. Then he tried to make protesting - a way of life in Kyiv - illegal.

And yes, every Ukrainian politician is a crook, but that doesn't make what he did as President legal.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby saxitoxin on Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:26 pm

LOL, the U.S. imposed its silly, chest-thumping sanctions on a dozen random people relating to their supposed "interests" in the U.S.

Vladislav Surkov just tweeted ...

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All the U.S.' politicians are castrated actors. Not real like Surkov. While Vlad was tweeting that, Ted Cruz was busy tweeting that there aren't enough bibles at the Air Force Academy or some such toothpaste commercial. Barack Obama was just still trying to work up the stock price on the deferred shares he'll be getting from his post-presidency Aetna board membership -

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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby GoranZ on Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:20 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.


If Crimea wanted a referendum to leave the Ukraine, why did they wait until now for it? Wouldn't a year between 1991 and 2013 been suitable? The referendum is at gun point.

For every referendum there is a trigger... counter question for you. Why WW2 didn't started 5 or 10 years before it actually started?
So the trigger for Crimea is the new government of Ukraine which is not legitimate and wants to sign a contract with EU.

In true Democratic society legitimacy is only received from voters. For example voters turnout for last American president is 58.2%, so in reality less then 30% of all American voters actually like Obama to be their president. Its similar with Canadian federal elections(61.1% turnout). So both current governments in US and Canada can be considered as nondemocratic. Majority of the people simply don't want them, or care about them. In contrast Russians in Crimea clearly want to be part of Russia but also ~50% of non Russians in Crimea also want to be part of Russia. Strong numbers for the Crimean government.

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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby Qwert on Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:37 pm

GoranZ wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.


If Crimea wanted a referendum to leave the Ukraine, why did they wait until now for it? Wouldn't a year between 1991 and 2013 been suitable? The referendum is at gun point.

For every referendum there is a trigger... counter question for you. Why WW2 didn't started 5 or 10 years before it actually started?
So the trigger for Crimea is the new government of Ukraine which is not legitimate and wants to sign a contract with EU.

In true Democratic society legitimacy is only received from voters. For example voters turnout for last American president is 58.2%, so in reality less then 30% of all American voters actually like Obama to be their president. Its similar with Canadian federal elections(61.1% turnout). So both current governments in US and Canada can be considered as nondemocratic. Majority of the people simply don't want them, or care about them. In contrast Russians in Crimea clearly want to be part of Russia but also ~50% of non Russians in Crimea also want to be part of Russia. Strong numbers for the Crimean government.

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Unfortunately only Government who are good for US and West Europe, are democratic for them(no mater how they come to power), and now Crimea referendum are illegal and not democratic. Only Kosovo have right to make UID and all other dont have this right.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby tzor on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:03 pm

thegreekdog wrote:I don't think Andy was mocking you. One can win the US presidential election without winning the popular vote because each state has a certain amount of electoral college votes. I believe it was created, at least partially, to avoid tyranny of the majority.


If you want to really understand the Constitution, you need to forget everything that happened after the Civil War. Under the Constitution, the "United States" is PLURAL. Thus the people of the STATE choose who they want for President (original system had the runner up become Vice President ... this was changed when the result became Adams/Jefferson). The electoral college was developed because of the difficulties of travel at the time. The number of members was, as was the compromise of the house and senate, a compromise between the very large states and the very small states.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby GoranZ on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:42 pm

Qwert wrote:Unfortunately only Government who are good for US and West Europe, are democratic for them(no mater how they come to power), and now Crimea referendum are illegal and not democratic. Only Kosovo have right to make UID and all other dont have this right.

One fundamental difference which should not be neglected... ~50% of total non Russian population in Crimea voted for merger with Russia, something similar can not be said about Kosovo. There the percent of non Albanians who support the independence is at least 50 times smaller. Generally western media want Kosovo and Crimea to be treated the same so they will buy back some of the mistakes their governments make.
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby Pope Joan on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:45 pm

DoomYoshi wrote: The only reason this whole thing turned political and international is because Yanukovich ordered the police to shoot at the protestors.


It would be interesting to see a proof of this. So far, the jury is out on who ordered to shoot:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573923/Estonian-Foreign-Ministry-confirms-authenticity-leaked-phone-call-discussing-Kiev-snipers-shot-protesters-possibly-hired-Ukraines-new-leaders.html
Unfortunately, it is already totally irrelevant (overtaken by events) :(

DoomYoshi wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Have to admit, it is a bit to difficult to side with a regime that came to power after protracted, violent demonstrations and are now trying to stamp on a democratic referendum.


If Crimea wanted a referendum to leave the Ukraine, why did they wait until now for it? Wouldn't a year between 1991 and 2013 been suitable? The referendum is at gun point.


They did have referendums in 1991 and 1992. The latter one is a legal basis for them to be a part of Ukraine but it stipulates a lot of autonomy, which was curtailed over the years by Ukraine. In particular, according to the 1992 law, Crimean parliament had a legal right both to call referendum and to invite Russian army to protect them. To be entirely fair all the rights Crimeans lost were with full approval of the Crimean parliament, which might have been forced but it is a moot point. The Crimean legal position is that because of the revolution in Kyiv, the country is in constitutional vacuum. My legal position is that they should have had a referendum on the return to the 1992 Constitution first. This would give them right to call referendum on independence, which could have done in no hurry, letting the other side to spell their position. IMHO, they would still get a huge (80+ %) majority but, probably, on a lower turnout. :ugeek:
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Re: Congratulations people of Crimea

Postby patches70 on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:23 pm

Aww, why the referendum now, Yoshi? It's probably a good idea to actually understand a little bit better what's actually going on.

It was on Feb 20, 2014 when snipers opened fire at the protests in Kiev. Immediately people blamed Yanukovich for the attack but we know better now, don't we?

The snipers opened fire on the protesters and police. The snipers fired on both sides. But who was responsible for that?

We know now that it was the new coalition government behind the shootings and the US and EU diplomats know this. On March 5, 2014 a phone conversation between EU foreign policy chief Cathy Ashton and Estonia's foreign minister Urmas Paet was leaked. Here is the transcript of that conversation-

Urmas Paet: "All the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among police men and people in the street, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides."
Cathy Ashton: "Well that's, yeah..."
Urmas Paet: "And she also showed me some photos and she said that has medical doctor, she can say that it is the same handwriting..."
Cathy Ashton: "Yeah..."
Urmas Paet: "Same type of bullets... and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition."



Now who would be so evil to do such a thing? The new government in Kiev won't investigate the shootings, so who is in this coalition government?

The most powerful contingent in the coalition government is Svoboda. These are extreme racist, neo nazi thugs, and that's no exaggeration, look into it yourself.
They want to cleanse Ukraine of Muscovite Jewry, their words.

The leader of Svoboda is Oleh Tyahnybok and has openly targeted Jews and Russians in Ukraine many times previously. In 2004 Tyahnybok was kicked out of Viktor Yushenko's government because Tyahnybok called for Ukrainians to rise up and drive the Muscovite Jewry from the country.
In 2005 Tyahnybok sent an open letter to the Ukraine leadership titled- "Stop the Criminal Activities of Organised Jewry". Look it up, you can read the letter for yourself if you like.

In 2012 the EU passed a resolution condemning Svoboda, as "racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic", but the US continues to back Svoboda. We know this is true because if you go back and listen to the leaked tape of Victoria Nulland saying "f*ck the EU". If you listen to the rest of the tape she's discussing putting Tyahnybok in power in the new government and that the US would back him.
The EU on the other hand, well, they did after all condemn Svoboda did they not? Hence "f*ck the EU" from Nulland as the EU balks at Svoboda.

The US thinks she can control these fuckers. We shall see I suppose, except Russia isn't going to take a chance on it.

Also to mention, Alexander Muzychko, whom Nulland can be heard favoring putting him into some high government position, has vowed to fight against "Jews, communists and Russian scum" for as long as he lives. No wonder the US is backing him! Can one start to see from Russia's POV yet? I would hope so, but lets go further, Yoshi.

In March the US put out this statement about Svoboda-
"Since entering the Ukrainian Parliament in October 2012, the Svoboda leadership has been working to take their party in a more moderate direction and to become a modern, European mainstream political party, The leadership has been much more vigilant about expelling or otherwise punishing individual members who engage in xenophobic behavior or rhetoric."

The US had to say something, people have found out who is behind the "peaceful" protesters who burned Kiev square and seized power by the point of a bayonet. But we see that the US acknowledges that they are working with a known, extremist neo nazi party, but they're "getting better" so they say. Let's look into that, shall we?

And then there is Right Sektor, the largest far right political group in Ukraine. Between Right Sektor and Svoboda they hold five senior posts in the Ukraine coalition government, including the Deputy Prime Minister and Dmytro Yarosh, the leader of Right Sektor, is the Deputy Secretary of National Security.

These are extremists, racists, violent people who have it out for Jews, Russians and anyone not Ukrainian. It's no wonder that Crimea and the Eastern Ukraine fear these people.
Tyahnybok ran for President back in 2010, take a look at the results regarding him-

Image

Crimea and the East don't like the guy at all. And he and his allies have taken over the government in Kiev, by force.

It's understanding who these people are, what they represent and who is opposed to them, then you start weeing exactly why Russia is pissed, why Crimea wants this referendum now, not in a year from now, not ten years ago, but now, because the situation for them has changed drastically. There are groups in power in Kiev that would have never won an election on their own because they are too radical, extreme and violent, they had to seize power.

You can look on the interwebz, good ole McCain the blubbering idiot met with Tyahnybok, I should post the pictures of him shaking hands with the racist asshole.

But we in the US (and Canada it appears) gets the watered down version of who these people are. But it's all in the public record. Look into Svoboda, it's leaders, Right Sektor and then come back and say "Yeah, I support those guys". Be sure to read all their anti Jew hate literature, don't forget to look into their calls to violently attack ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Don't forget to take a gander at the BBC's expose Svoboda back in 2012 along with the EU's official condemnation of the group who is the most powerful player in the new government in Kiev.

That's who you are backing, so just be sure you take ownership of backing racists bastards who preach killing Jews, Russians and anyone else who they feel in undesirable and don't belong in the Ukraine.

It's not like the US hasn't back terrorist extremists in the past <cough> Syria, Libya <cough>. It's the same MO as before, but this time is different. Yeah....right.....

Oh, and the original question I asked, who was responsible for those horrible sniper attacks on Feb 20, 2014 in Kiev? Svoboda and Right Sektor. All evidence points straight to them. But since they control the government in Kiev, they have little to fear from anyone and the crimes won't be investigated.

Nice. And that's who you are backing! Murdering scum!
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