Coming Messiah

[mrswdk]

I bet DY wishes his threads could rack up a reply count as considerable as chiro's do.

[Gweeedo]

Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus has been on earth since nineteen-fourteen. Moorish Muslims believe Dr. Drew Ali was the last prophet.
Some people believe that our current technology of tracking is the mark of the beast.

Questions
[color=#FF0000]Why would God come to earth in the form of a human[/color] an allow himself to be crucified?
Wouldn't a just and loving God just set up heaven on earth at that moment instead of letting millions upon millions to die in the future?
Wasn't religion created out of ignorance. A man of God needs no formal religion. I don't see the difference between the wrong a d the wrong.

God did not come to Earth in the ''form of a Human (as Jesus).''
Jesus was brought forth by birth...he entered and exited this world in the same design, as us all.
God came to earth in word (the word).
Jesus devoted himself to every word (the word) of God, he became ''the word'' in the flesh (the living word)...the word became flesh.
How could God kill his only Son?
Lets take a look at Abram and Isaac; God told Abram to sacrifice his Son (kill him). Abram had to do it, he had no choice but to obey Gods command.
OK, So how Is it God had to kill his Son Jesus, why didn't he just intervene (stop the sacrifice) like he did with Isaac?
Abraham had to obey Gods word...God told Abraham to STOP!
God is all loving.
Before Jesus was Brought to the Cross (long, long before) God had said, ''Cursed is he who hangs from a tree,''
Jesus became a Curse, God had no choice...same as Abraham.
Jesus always had a choice, he could have pulled out at anytime...He is the ''word of God.''

Anyhow, That is as I remember, my understanding how a Father could Sacrifice his Child and still be seen as a loving father.

Don't quote me, ''Cursed is he who hangs from a tree,'' it reads something to that effect.
I haven't touched a bible in years...I'm a bad man; a bad man that knows the truth makes all the difference in the eyes of God.
The truth being Jesus...not my own understanding.

[Dukasaur]

Why wouldn't it bring forth juniper berries?

[degaston]

God told Abram to sacrifice his Son (kill him). Abram had to do it, he had no choice but to obey Gods command.

These days, most of us understand that people who actually believe that God is talking to them, whether it's to kill their children, or anything else, are genuinely insane.

[PLAYER57832]

Every generation has claimed the time is near, what makes this generation different that the coming Messiah is near. There are many signs and fulfilled prophecies indicating we are near, here is a brief list of some signs:

1. Israel becoming a nation. Israel hasn't been a nation for 2,500 years until 1948. But Israel didn't have Jerusalem.
2. Israel captures capital city Jerusalem in 1967.
3. Euphrates river will dry up to allow 200 million man army to march from far East. Turkey has built many damns and threatens a water tax to lower countries or they'll stop the flow.
4. China boasted 200+ million man army in late 1980's.
5. People will go to & fro quickly. For 5,900 years the fasted mankind traveled was the speed of one horse, now we cross the Atlantic in hours. This speed of travel exponentially increased in last 100 years.
6. Knowledge will increase. The last 100+/- years knowledge has exponentially increased compared to the previous 5,900 years.
7. One world religion. Pope recently announced that if an atheist or agnostic obey their moral conscience, they'll go to heaven. This has unified all religions under the umbrella of obey moral conscience & heaven awaits you. Bible says Nope, Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
8. Armeggedon will have such destruction that elements will melt, flesh melting, nuclear weapons explains this.
The list keeps going.
Bible says, "no one knows the day or hour... when the fig tree sprouts leaves you know the harvest is near". The signs have started, the time is near. Get ready. The creator of the Universe, Jesus, is coming soon!

Except, the Bible also says that Satan, when he comes again, will be in the guise of light.. and will fool many people. In other words, the place you need to look, and lecture is your church, not here.

If that's true, then we should doubt your advice for it may be the Words of Satan.

Nice try, except I label no one, and certainly make no claims to being any messiah. I merely refer you to the ultimate source of truth for Christians, the Bible.

[crispybits]

Christians have a different version of truth than non-christians?

(Sorry, but having read that book I find it impossible to believe it's the personal message of a perfect divine mind to their most special creations...)

[Metsfanmax]

Christians have a different version of truth than non-christians?

It's certainly possible that there's no objective truth.

[crispybits]

True, except that we are talking in the context of objective truths here (either there is a God or there isnt, either the end times are here or they are not) and that applies to everyone. The realm of "are we brains in jars" philosophical arguments are moot in that context.

[PLAYER57832]

Christians have a different version of truth than non-christians?

(Sorry, but having read that book I find it impossible to believe it's the personal message of a perfect divine mind to their most special creations...)

Christians beliefs differ from non-Christians, yes.

Christians include as truth things in the Bible. Most Christians accept standard proofs as well, see them as complementing and in no way disputing the Bible, though folks like univers, etc. may not accept anything that they see as disagreeing with what they feel the Bible says.

(that is, most of us Christians think that while the Bible purveys truth, our understanding of it can well lack and when there has been a "conflict" with science, it winds up being a human misunderstanding of the Bible, not a real Biblical problem. Some see their understanding as "the" truth.. and dismiss anything that disagrees).

Anyway, I spoke thus because the OP is a Christian. BBS is a universal disputer (don't actually know his religious beliefs, but he seems to dispute anything but market economics trumping all). Not getting into another "is the Bible correct debate". That issues is irresolvable and debated already in other threads. Revive one of them, if you wish.

[PLAYER57832]

Christians have a different version of truth than non-christians?

It's certainly possible that there's no objective truth.

On some subjects, yes.

Even the most fundamental scientific pronouncements are provisional... as in , usually they contain the addendum "in this universe", or "on Earth", etc. At some point, the distinctions become irrelevant. Anything true in this universe is "fundamentally true" because we don't leave our universe.

The debate is mostly in areas where there is no real proof possible. They can be fun to debate, but its basically esoteric discussion.

When talking to another Christian, a fundamental is that the Bible is true. I , of course, understand, that not everyone agrees and generally couch my language to make that clear. I just did not above, because the reference was so specific. There have, however, been several threads on that set of topics already.

[crispybits]

It's perfectly relevant Player, the OP is that the bible predicts that we are in the end times, for yadda yadda yadda reasons. Now, one approach is to examine the reasons in detail and ask "are these coming to pass?" and that sort of thing. The more basic question though is "why should we trust that book to be accurate anyway?".

The claim about the book within the book is that it is the personal message of the perfect divine mind to their most special creations. OK I've paraphrased a whole lot for brevity, but that's the very basic assertion made which (if you believe some) gives any argument based on it's content objective truth (rather than it being fiction).

To know whether we believe the OP, we can get bogged down in the details about hyper-inflation or seven year peace treaties, or we can examine whether there is any actual foundation to believe that even if all of these things can be clearly shown to be happening there is any reason to believe that the book has genuine predictive power.

Thankfully for us, a lot of the work has already been done for us on this point, and in the nearly two millenia since it was written there has been found no reason why biblical prophecies are any more accurate than quranic prophecies or talmudic prophecies or nostradamus' prophecies. Sure with hindsight we can go back and find things that we can bend to fit into an interpretation of recent events, but then we've been able to do that about revelations and the end times for centuries now. History is littered with individuals and groups who thought Jesus was coming back to walk the earth during their lifetimes and so far they have a precisely 0% success rate at predicting the end of the world. I have yet to see any reason in this thread either that the predictions are correct in this case, just baseless assertions and hyperbole.

In conclusion, this thread is yet another way for a religious person or two to get up on their soap box and shout their ranty shouts. And we're allowed to shout back at them, so no I will not go off to another thread and revive that. This bullshit must be called what it is wherever it pops up.

[AndyDufresne]

Christians have a different version of truth than non-christians?

It's certainly possible that there's no objective truth.

The only truth that exists, is the truth of the almighty SaxBuck.


--Andy

[oVo]

Our planet is located within the Milky Way, a 100,000 lightyear wide spiral galaxy containing 300 billion stars with a peanut shaped core.

Can you find God in the peanut.

[PLAYER57832]

It's perfectly relevant Player, the OP is that the bible predicts that we are in the end times, for yadda yadda yadda reasons. Now, one approach is to examine the reasons in detail and ask "are these coming to pass?" and that sort of thing. The more basic question though is "why should we trust that book to be accurate anyway?".

Its a belief, religion. Its not possible to prove it to someone who does not wish to believe.

I have discussed this at length with you previously. I am generally happy to do so, but this thread had a different topic .

The claim about the book within the book is that it is the personal message of the perfect divine mind to their most special creations. OK I've paraphrased a whole lot for brevity, but that's the very basic assertion made which (if you believe some) gives any argument based on it's content objective truth (rather than it being fiction).

not really, that is your paraphrasing shortchanges to such an extent its almost false, but you are free to think this.

To know whether we believe the OP, we can get bogged down in the details about hyper-inflation or seven year peace treaties, or we can examine whether there is any actual foundation to believe that even if all of these things can be clearly shown to be happening there is any reason to believe that the book has genuine predictive power.

The trouble is you are now attempting to group my and the beliefs of all other Christians with the OP. You cannot do that with integrity. We differ significantly.

Thankfully for us, a lot of the work has already been done for us on this point, and in the nearly two millenia since it was written there has been found no reason why biblical prophecies are any more accurate than quranic prophecies or talmudic prophecies or nostradamus' prophecies. Sure with hindsight we can go back and find things that we can bend to fit into an interpretation of recent events, but then we've been able to do that about revelations and the end times for centuries now. History is littered with individuals and groups who thought Jesus was coming back to walk the earth during their lifetimes and so far they have a precisely 0% success rate at predicting the end of the world. I have yet to see any reason in this thread either that the predictions are correct in this case, just baseless assertions and hyperbole.

This is just not true. Again, you take what a few people have thought in time and attempt to equate it with all Biblical belief. You begin with a false assumption, so your conclusions are just irrelevant.

In conclusion, this thread is yet another way for a religious person or two to get up on their soap box and shout their ranty shouts. And we're allowed to shout back at them, so no I will not go off to another thread and revive that. This bullshit must be called what it is wherever it pops up.

Well, I agree in referense to Universe. However, your attempt to equate all other Christians or even just myself, with that is wrong and insulting... and you have read enough of my posts on the subject to know I differ. (as do several other Christians here, though I am not going to go through and name them all).

I have answered you with integrity in debates. We disagree, but your views are no more logical than mine... and if you choose to disagree, well.. there are plenty of other threads already for that. No need to hijack this one for that same old debate.

[crispybits]

I've not mentioned or stated that all christians are deluded or crazy here (other places sure), my statements here have been about end time biblical prophecy and perfectly valid in that context. If you want to put yourself under the banner of those who are trying to use the bible to herald the end times then that's your problem not mine. I haven't touched on any aspect of biblical theory except as to how it relates to end times predictions in this thread.

Every single statement you've quoted there is quite clearly in reference to the OP claim and how we can judge whether to take it seriously or not. The fundamental question of whether the bible is the word of God IS relevant in that conversation. In fact it's the MOST relevant thing. Any book may contain passages about the signs that the end of the world is coming, and any book may portray those signs in such a way that we could interpret them to modern events. Any book can then make predictions about what happens next. The claim that this particular set of predictions is accurate relies entirely (but not solely) on establishing this otherwise there is no reason to believe that the author has any precogniscent ability.

The only bit I can see you may have valid reason to pull me up is my paraphrasing of the bible down to a single sentence, but if my paraphrasing is not accurate and the bible isn't a personal message from a perfect divine mind to its most special creations then where does that leave it? What is it if not that?

[universalchiro]

Another sign of the coming Messiah: The Bible describes in the end times, Israel would be the land flowing with milk and honey. Yet in 1948 when Israel was born again, the land was desolate, a waste land of desert, fast forward 60 years, Israel is the world leader in milk production per cow. It was known that the European Holstein cattle were the top producers of milk, not so fast. Israel milk production is 2,000 gallons more per cow than American counterparts. Israel use to pay high tariff tax for importing honey, but having just traveled to Israel, they have initiated multiple bee farms and now produce their own honey. Indeed the land is flowing with milk and honey.

@BigBallinStallin: Agreed the Bible is foolishness to the non-believer. As the Bible says the unsaved person is not capable of understanding the truths contained in the Bible because they are spiritual and therefore requires the Holy Spirit to reveal the truths within.

@crispybits: I watched your video. If this was the spokes person for God, I would join with crispybits and BBS. This guy saying that Barack Obama is connected with #44 is beyond me. And his connecting Whitney Houston's death as a warning to America and the 9 bullets fired from an AK47 indicates a sign is crazy.
I accept that you view the Bible as not inspired by God and all followers as fools. And you are correct, either there is a God or there isn't. So just keep your eyes open and if you see signs fulfilled that the Bible says would occur and do occur, then maybe search out further. Just keep an open eye, though the skepticism is welcomed

@gweeedo: The first appearance of Jesus was Genesis 1:1, He shed His immortal God status to take on mortal flesh with His birth via Mary. At which time He was 100% man and 100% God. Also, Abraham doubted God's abilities to give him a son multiple times and even took measures in his own hands by bearing Ishmael with Egyptian Hagar. So God tested Abraham to see if he fully trusted God.

[Gweeedo]

God told Abram to sacrifice his Son (kill him). Abram had to do it, he had no choice but to obey Gods command.

These days, most of us understand that people who actually believe that God is talking to them, whether it's to kill their children, or anything else, are genuinely insane.

That's the way it has been from the beginning.
John the Baptist, Elisha, Enoch, Noah, Jesus, many more...they were freaks.
You think anybody knew what the hell they were talking about? Jesus own disciples did not know what he was talking about half the time.


Jesus has always been, God has always been, believers have always been.
Everlasting life has no relevancy when you are ''in'' eternity. So yes, every believer was with Jesus and God when God created man.
Our Carnal body's are bound in time.
Once you are born again you are no longer limited to time itself, now you have entered into eternity (no limit..eternal life).
Only thing is, our body doesn't know it is dead. Everything (time) is dead! all will pass away...be wiped completely out of existence.
Believers (Jesus) will take on a new form (body and spirit), while unbelievers will have no body, just a spirit separated from GOD.
That would be Hell!

[BigBallinStalin]

Every generation has claimed the time is near, what makes this generation different that the coming Messiah is near. There are many signs and fulfilled prophecies indicating we are near, here is a brief list of some signs:

1. Israel becoming a nation. Israel hasn't been a nation for 2,500 years until 1948. But Israel didn't have Jerusalem.
2. Israel captures capital city Jerusalem in 1967.
3. Euphrates river will dry up to allow 200 million man army to march from far East. Turkey has built many damns and threatens a water tax to lower countries or they'll stop the flow.
4. China boasted 200+ million man army in late 1980's.
5. People will go to & fro quickly. For 5,900 years the fasted mankind traveled was the speed of one horse, now we cross the Atlantic in hours. This speed of travel exponentially increased in last 100 years.
6. Knowledge will increase. The last 100+/- years knowledge has exponentially increased compared to the previous 5,900 years.
7. One world religion. Pope recently announced that if an atheist or agnostic obey their moral conscience, they'll go to heaven. This has unified all religions under the umbrella of obey moral conscience & heaven awaits you. Bible says Nope, Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
8. Armeggedon will have such destruction that elements will melt, flesh melting, nuclear weapons explains this.
The list keeps going.
Bible says, "no one knows the day or hour... when the fig tree sprouts leaves you know the harvest is near". The signs have started, the time is near. Get ready. The creator of the Universe, Jesus, is coming soon!

Except, the Bible also says that Satan, when he comes again, will be in the guise of light.. and will fool many people. In other words, the place you need to look, and lecture is your church, not here.

If that's true, then we should doubt your advice for it may be the Words of Satan.

Nice try, except I label no one, and certainly make no claims to being any messiah. I merely refer you to the ultimate source of truth for Christians, the Bible.

Which one? Any could be the work of Satan.

[BigBallinStalin]

Another sign of the coming Messiah: The Bible describes in the end times, Israel would be the land flowing with milk and honey. Yet in 1948 when Israel was born again, the land was desolate, a waste land of desert, fast forward 60 years, Israel is the world leader in milk production per cow. It was known that the European Holstein cattle were the top producers of milk, not so fast. Israel milk production is 2,000 gallons more per cow than American counterparts. Israel use to pay high tariff tax for importing honey, but having just traveled to Israel, they have initiated multiple bee farms and now produce their own honey. Indeed the land is flowing with milk and honey.

@BigBallinStallin: Agreed the Bible is foolishness to the non-believer. As the Bible says the unsaved person is not capable of understanding the truths contained in the Bible because they are spiritual and therefore requires the Holy Spirit to reveal the truths within.

Ah, I'm no "true Scotsman." I get it.

When's the next logical fallacy coming up?

[BigBallinStalin]

Jesus was Hungry, heading towered a fig tree (seeing it was full of leaves) he finds (no fruit) nothing but leaves.
This tree was an exception (out of season and full of leaves), it had all the signs of producing fruit, yet there was no fruit.

Even though you can see all the signs, you still don't/wont get it...you will curse God all the same.
Bible is of little use to those who are not hungry in spirit.

Quote, degaston: BTW, I find no mention of hyperinflation in the Bible. Which version should I be searching in. end quote:
Pick any version you wish, pray for understanding and 'go' to God...he will produce fruit.

So you make up the fruit as you wish to see it?

Out with the logic, in with the imagination!

The fig trees around Jerusalem normally begin to get leaves in March or April but do not produce figs until their leaves are all out in June. This tree was an exception in that it was already, at passover time, full of leaves. A tree full of leaves normally should have fruit, but this one was cursed because it had none.

Yes, you make it up as you see it. Without a standard for distinguishing knowledge from nonsense, you won't know how sensible you sound.

[Quirk]

No one ever has lived perfectly according to their words/beliefs/etc.

What a ridiculous statement.

[mrswdk]

lol. 'The reason I know you're wrong is because you aren't a Christian'. Fantastic broadside, and he sinks BBS's battleship.

[universalchiro]

No one ever has lived perfectly according to their words/beliefs/etc.

What a ridiculous statement.

People can be so cold and brash through the keyboard 1,000s of miles away. Quirk it will serve you better if you are more tactful and kind. Also state why you view the statement is in error, rather than just making a blanket statement with no premise.


--------------
Another sign the the Messiah is near: the Bible describes in the end times, during the 7 year tribulation, there will be two witnesses from God that prepare the way for the Messiah. The two witness are murdered and lay dead in the streets for 3 days. The world celebrates and gives gifts because of their death. Then the two witnesses arise from the dead. The kicker is that all the world sees their murder, all the world sees them dead on the street, all the world sees them rise from the dead. No generation has comprehended that until recently. For only with the advent of satellite transmission could the entire world view a real time event. Get ready the time is near!

[degaston]

No one ever has lived perfectly according to their words/beliefs/etc.

Aren't you forgetting someone?

[AndyDufresne]

No one ever has lived perfectly according to their words/beliefs/etc.

What a ridiculous statement.

People can be so cold and brash through the keyboard 1,000s of miles away. Quirk it will serve you better if you are more tactful and kind. Also state why you view the statement is in error, rather than just making a blanket statement with no premise.

If there is one thing I know about Quirk, is that he pretty much doesn't hide behind any anonymity through the internet and his keyboard. He seems pretty kind as well, though my interactions with him have been limited to the Longest Thread, Thread. He seems like a logical fella. Evidence, this post: Subject: the longest thread, thread - Occasionally NSFW


--Andy