Congratulations people of Crimea

[mrswdk]

Tiananmen Square, 1989 - a perfect example of people power at work. The People's Liberation Army lived up to their name and liberated the political heart of China from its unlawful and unrepresentative occupiers.

The Ukranian government should learn from their friends in China, who have a solid history of competently putting down violent secessionism and civil disorder. The only fitting response to the usurpation of government authority is a hail of bullets.

[saxitoxin]

This just in - the Kiev regime has used violence on civilian protesters. In light of this frightening new development, Russia is left with no choice but to immediately send in peacekeeping troops to restore order. Russia can't stand by as Ukraine turns into Europe's Rwanda.

An estimated 300 people attacked a Ukrainian military base in the country's southeast on Thursday, the nation's interior minister said on his Facebook page.
According to Arsen Avakov, three of the attackers have been killed, 13 wounded and 63 others detained.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/17/world/eur ... index.html

[Qwert]

odessa also declared independent from Kiev

[saxitoxin]

The giant corporations running Kiev have stopped pretending and have just decided to raise their own mercenary armies to unleash on the protesters.

Dnipropetrovsk Oblast governor and billionaire Igor Kolomoisky is offering cash bonuses for those who fight against pro-Russian separatists. Freeing any government building will lead to a $200,000 reward, disarming separatists of their weapons could to allow earn an additional $1,000-2,000, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Administration press officer Kateryna Shovkova told the Kyiv Post.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 43970.html

Kolomoyskyi is a pro-Israel billionaire who owns PrivatBank and a couple of airlines. If this doesn't prove the validity of the Neo-Gramscian perspective, nothing does.

[DoomYoshi]

The giant corporations running Kiev have stopped pretending and have just decided to raise their own mercenary armies to unleash on the protesters.

Dnipropetrovsk Oblast governor and billionaire Igor Kolomoisky is offering cash bonuses for those who fight against pro-Russian separatists. Freeing any government building will lead to a $200,000 reward, disarming separatists of their weapons could to allow earn an additional $1,000-2,000, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast Administration press officer Kateryna Shovkova told the Kyiv Post.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 43970.html

Kolomoyskyi is a pro-Israel billionaire who owns PrivatBank and a couple of airlines. If this doesn't prove the validity of the Neo-Gramscian perspective, nothing does.

You are correct. Nothing does:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=181792

[Phatscotty]

Why not finding Malaysian airplane is breaking news for 3 weeks straight...

[GoranZ]

In the long-run Russia needs to establish a land-bridge to fellow Slavic peoples in Serbia and Macedonia to protect them from the U.S. So either Romania, Hungary, or Bulgaria need a baseball bat to their knees. That may be impossible, however. (Unless the Nazi movements in Hungary spin out of control and get into government, then NATO may need to impose a cordon sanitaire on Hungary which would be an opportunity for Russia to strike.)

While Serbia was under strong Russian influence, Macedonia in whole history never was. When it comes to US and Russia, the influence is similar for Macedonia... mainly fair from both.

Back on topic... What makes people rich? Trade and Cooperation. Can Ukraine as it is become Switzerland in the East? Yeah, they could become super rich by only trading with Russia and EU and not allying with anyone. But unfortunately for Ukrainians they dont have politicians capable of fulfilling such simple task. I bet if Putin is nominated for president of Ukraine he will win atm On top substantial percentage of Ukrainians oligarchs will end up in prison

[DoomYoshi]

I bet if Putin is nominated for president of Ukraine he will win atm

Never mind atm. Putin has consistently polled higher than any Ukrainian politician since 2008.


Anyways, it is pretty clear that all of my predictions have turned out correct.

Prediction 1:

Seems a lot of the civilians (at least in Kiev) don't want to be closely tied to Russia, but would rather have closer ties to the Western Part of Europe. Military action by others looks doubtful, but sanctions certainly seem to be close to happening. Story seems similar to the Egyptian protests/riots as well. Started off with peaceful protesting, and then something set it off and so far at least 100 people have been killed and many more wounded.

Thoughts on what will happen in Ukraine?

I think the pull of Russia will be too great and Ukrainians can look forward to another 20 years of developing.

Reality: Ukraine is rapidly going back to the stone age. It will take at least 20 years of being a third-world country before it is civilized again.

Prediction 2:

The Russian economy has too much to lose from Ukraine to back down.

Civilized people will lose interest before Russia - no matter how many resources we have to begin with.

The Time magazine spread shows evidence of that.

I can't find the quote for my third prediction but to paraphrase:

Whoever wins in Ukraine will not be a traditional political party. It will be some newcomer with a public break from the (Ukrainian) oligarchy system.

Putin is definitely a newcomer in Ukrainian politics.

[Baron Von PWN]

For Moscow the situation in East Ukraine is perfect. By raising the spectre of civil war/ parts of the east breaking away, they can make "concessions" and everyone forgets about the Crimea.

[saxitoxin]

For Moscow the situation in East Ukraine is perfect. By raising the spectre of civil war/ parts of the east breaking away, they can make "concessions" and everyone forgets about the Crimea.

excellent analysis!

[GoranZ]

http://ru-facts.com/news/view/34141.html

Something funny, I dont think its true... but if it is true we all have problems

[mrswdk]

Ultimately, this is not a in example of Putin 'winning'. Seizing control of a tiny and fairly inconsequential territory right on the Russian border is not much of an achievement. All he has really achieved is to undermine the idea of international law and order.

Will anyone important (the US, EU, China etc.) be more scared of Russia, now that they've seen Putin rubbing his knuckles on Kiev's head? No.
Will the seizure of Crimea win Russia greater support from anyone else in future? No.
Has it alarmed a bunch of the other small countries who border Russia and started pushing them closer to the US? Yes.

Sure, the US bullies people too, but it does so in a way that builds friends as well as enemies. Obama is the rich kid who is a jerk and annoys a lot of people, but is also surrounded by a gang of friends and hangers on. Putin is the big ape sat outside the school gates stealing lunch money from 7th graders.

[Dukasaur]

Ultimately, this is not a in example of Putin 'winning'. Seizing control of a tiny and fairly inconsequential territory right on the Russian border is not much of an achievement. All he has really achieved is to undermine the idea of international law and order.

Will anyone important (the US, EU, China etc.) be more scared of Russia, now that they've seen Putin rubbing his knuckles on Kiev's head? No.
Will the seizure of Crimea win Russia greater support from anyone else in future? No.
Has it alarmed a bunch of the other small countries who border Russia and started pushing them closer to the US? Yes.

There is no new information being provided by Putin's latest move. Most of us saw though him from Day 1, but after the murder of Alexander Litvinenko and the refusal to bring his killer to justice, every thinking person on the planet knew that Perestroika was dead as a doornail and the butchers of the Lubyanka were back in the drivers's seat.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/12/suspect-alexander-litvinenko-inquest-andrei-lugovoi

[saxitoxin]

Reuters just released an excellent special report on how Bush and Obama's warmongering and treaty violations created an environment in which Russia had no choice but to act and how everything that has happened is a result of American aggression and lies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... OQ20140419

[mrswdk]

Russia is just a dog shit in a park. It smells and no one likes it, but ultimately it's fairly inconsequential.

[DoomYoshi]

Reuters just released an excellent special report on how Bush and Obama's warmongering and treaty violations created an environment in which Russia had no choice but to act and how everything that has happened is a result of American aggression and lies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... OQ20140419

Doesn't that make it your fault?

[GoranZ]

Ultimately, this is not a in example of Putin 'winning'. Seizing control of a tiny and fairly inconsequential territory right on the Russian border is not much of an achievement.

Actually you are wrong, Crimea is important for Russia, and to Ukriane. For others it is not very important but Western media made it look like very important. So Putin achieved substantial victory

All he has really achieved is to undermine the idea of international law and order.

Hahaha, that was undermined long time ago, there is no need for Russia to honor it, when others do not

Will anyone important (the US, EU, China etc.) be more scared of Russia, now that they've seen Putin rubbing his knuckles on Kiev's head? No.

Was that Putin's goal? I think seizure of Crimea was in order to consolidate Russia, especially securing Russias western border. But if US, EU or China are scared from his move then that would be a plus.

Will the seizure of Crimea win Russia greater support from anyone else in future? No.

Maybe yes maybe no, only future will tell.

Has it alarmed a bunch of the other small countries who border Russia and started pushing them closer to the US? Yes.

WRONG, now smaller countries have two options, not just US. And if US failed to protect Ukraine what guaranties will smaller countries get that they will be protected. None in my eyes

Sure, the US bullies people too, but it does so in a way that builds friends as well as enemies. Obama is the rich kid who is a jerk and annoys a lot of people, but is also surrounded by a gang of friends and hangers on. Putin is the big ape sat outside the school gates stealing lunch money from 7th graders.

Initially Russia build up a lot of enemies with Ukraine crisis, bit those enemies were never friends in the first place, they only pretended they were friends. Knowing who is your true friend is more valuable then not knowing.

[Dukasaur]

Reuters just released an excellent special report on how Bush and Obama's warmongering and treaty violations created an environment in which Russia had no choice but to act and how everything that has happened is a result of American aggression and lies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/ ... OQ20140419

Excellent summation of the situation.

Probably the single biggest turning point:

The 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq, without U.N. authorization and over the objections of France, Germany and Russia, was a turning point for Putin. He said the war made a mockery of American claims of promoting democracy abroad and upholding international law.

Illegal and immoral actions by governments are as old as time, but until the unprovoked attack on Iraq there was a feeling among most people that the West in general, and the United States specifically, tended to respect the rule of law more often than not. The completely cynical dismissal of all international law in the attack on Iraq cost the West the moral high ground. Before Iraq, every war that the U.S. had gone into had at least some moral justification -- sometimes a bit thin, but always defensible on some grounds. Iraq cost the U.S. its ability to bring any kind of moral suasion to bear when other bullies like the Russians take what they want.

Another very important point is this:

Bush and Putin's post-2001 camaraderie foundered on a core dispute: Russia's relationship with its neighbors. In November 2002, Bush backed NATO's invitation to seven nations - including former Soviet republics Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - to begin talks to join the Western alliance. In 2004, with Bush as a driving force, the seven Eastern European nations joined NATO.

Putin and other Russian officials asked why NATO continued to grow when the enemy it was created to fight, the Soviet Union, had ceased to exist. And they asked what NATO expansion would do to counter new dangers, such as terrorism and proliferation.

"This purely mechanical expansion does not let us face the current threats," Putin said, "and cannot allow us to prevent such things as the terrorist attacks in Madrid or restore stability in Afghanistan."

Thomas E. Graham, who served as Bush's senior director for Russia on the National Security Council, said a larger effort should have been made to create a new post-Soviet, European security structure that replaced NATO and included Russia.

"What we should have been aiming for - and what we should be aiming for at this point," Graham said, "is a security structure that's based on three pillars: the United States, a more or less unified Europe, and Russia."

The expansion of NATO after the collapse of the Soviet Union is horribly similar to the Athenian misuse of the Delian League after its raison d'etre evaporated with the victory at Salamis. It has, however ineffectively, become an instrument to try to perpetuate American control of European foreign policy after any mutual benefit has been lost. And like the Delian League, I fear that it will end badly.

As the article notes, any genuine organization for stability in Europe and its environs would have tried to include, not exclude, the Russians. The continuation of NATO is just an attempt to preserve the wonder years when BigBrother could get anything he wanted.

[mrswdk]

It is incidents like this that demonstrate exactly why Mao Zedong is still widely revered within China.

Old colonial powers such as the USA and Russia know nothing except brute force. Until contact with the barbarian imperial powers, China enjoyed a peaceful existence. It was the most refined civilization on the face of the planet, a land of the most exquisite and sophisticated culture ever known to man.

Unfortunately, a refined culture was no match for the cannons of the knuckle-dragging gorillas who came from abroad. As the world slowly succumbed to the Great Powers and their insatiable quest to subjugate all others, China soon found itself in the firing line, encircled by the vicious armies of Europe, Russia, Japan and the USA. It experienced a century of humiliation at the hands of the barbarians, and its great civilization was trampled, tattered and torn. It was a time of heart-breaking sorrow for the Chinese people.

The warmongering of the imperialists eventually reached such dizzying heights that they started to target each other, and with two great wars ripped their filthy empires apart. However, even the immense pain and self-destruction of the world wars taught the barbarians nothing. Since 1945 there has been a lengthy series of crises which demonstrate that a sword is still the only instrument simple enough for the barbarians’ dull minds to comprehend.

And so, China has corrected its course. The Chairman empowered the people of China to finally expel the imperial powers once and for all, and start again. This time, China will defend its great civilization and will not be subject to the rapine and looting that the barbarians continue to inflict upon their old colonial subjects around the world. Gone are the days of the Unequal Treaties and foreign concessions – the US, Japan and Russia may continue to bully many of their historic victims but they will not find a punch bag in China.

[saxitoxin]

One thing the article did not mention is the U.S. violation of the obligations it undertook in the 1991 surrender of Germany in which it agreed not to place military forces in eastern Germany. This is essential to Russian security and the U.S. simply ignores it. And yes, the expansion of NATO is also prohibited and intolerable.

The U.S. cannot be trusted not to launch a future attack against Russia so it is unreasonable to expect Russia to sit back and do nothing while the U.S. is maneuvering its forces into optimal striking position. Ukraine, Belarus, and Finland are critical buffer zones and Russia, as a great power, has an absolute right to keep the aboriginal governments in those places nonaligned by hook or by crook.

[DoomYoshi]

It is incidents like this that demonstrate exactly why Mao Zedong is still widely revered within China.

Old colonial powers such as the USA and Russia know nothing except brute force. Until contact with the barbarian imperial powers, China enjoyed a peaceful existence. It was the most refined civilization on the face of the planet, a land of the most exquisite and sophisticated culture ever known to man.

Unfortunately, a refined culture was no match for the cannons of the knuckle-dragging gorillas who came from abroad. As the world slowly succumbed to the Great Powers and their insatiable quest to subjugate all others, China soon found itself in the firing line, encircled by the vicious armies of Europe, Russia, Japan and the USA. It experienced a century of humiliation at the hands of the barbarians, and its great civilization was trampled, tattered and torn. It was a time of heart-breaking sorrow for the Chinese people.

The warmongering of the imperialists eventually reached such dizzying heights that they started to target each other, and with two great wars ripped their filthy empires apart. However, even the immense pain and self-destruction of the world wars taught the barbarians nothing. Since 1945 there has been a lengthy series of crises which demonstrate that a sword is still the only instrument simple enough for the barbarians’ dull minds to comprehend.

And so, China has corrected its course. The Chairman empowered the people of China to finally expel the imperial powers once and for all, and start again. This time, China will defend its great civilization and will not be subject to the rapine and looting that the barbarians continue to inflict upon their old colonial subjects around the world. Gone are the days of the Unequal Treaties and foreign concessions – the US, Japan and Russia may continue to bully many of their historic victims but they will not find a punch bag in China.

You do realize that 40% of so-called Chinese are in fact Mongols, right?

[saxitoxin]

It is incidents like this that demonstrate exactly why Mao Zedong is still widely revered within China.

Old colonial powers such as the USA and Russia know nothing except brute force. Until contact with the barbarian imperial powers, China enjoyed a peaceful existence. It was the most refined civilization on the face of the planet, a land of the most exquisite and sophisticated culture ever known to man.

Unfortunately, a refined culture was no match for the cannons of the knuckle-dragging gorillas who came from abroad. As the world slowly succumbed to the Great Powers and their insatiable quest to subjugate all others, China soon found itself in the firing line, encircled by the vicious armies of Europe, Russia, Japan and the USA. It experienced a century of humiliation at the hands of the barbarians, and its great civilization was trampled, tattered and torn. It was a time of heart-breaking sorrow for the Chinese people.

The warmongering of the imperialists eventually reached such dizzying heights that they started to target each other, and with two great wars ripped their filthy empires apart. However, even the immense pain and self-destruction of the world wars taught the barbarians nothing. Since 1945 there has been a lengthy series of crises which demonstrate that a sword is still the only instrument simple enough for the barbarians’ dull minds to comprehend.

And so, China has corrected its course. The Chairman empowered the people of China to finally expel the imperial powers once and for all, and start again. This time, China will defend its great civilization and will not be subject to the rapine and looting that the barbarians continue to inflict upon their old colonial subjects around the world. Gone are the days of the Unequal Treaties and foreign concessions – the US, Japan and Russia may continue to bully many of their historic victims but they will not find a punch bag in China.

Russia is not a former colonial power, aside from the limited case of the treaty ports. Even the conquest of Siberia integrated the local populations into the Russian nation, and that was the last even pseudo colonial thing and it was 400 years ago. Russia has never attacked anyone who wasn't asking for it.

[DoomYoshi]

It is incidents like this that demonstrate exactly why Mao Zedong is still widely revered within China.

Old colonial powers such as the USA and Russia know nothing except brute force. Until contact with the barbarian imperial powers, China enjoyed a peaceful existence. It was the most refined civilization on the face of the planet, a land of the most exquisite and sophisticated culture ever known to man.

Unfortunately, a refined culture was no match for the cannons of the knuckle-dragging gorillas who came from abroad. As the world slowly succumbed to the Great Powers and their insatiable quest to subjugate all others, China soon found itself in the firing line, encircled by the vicious armies of Europe, Russia, Japan and the USA. It experienced a century of humiliation at the hands of the barbarians, and its great civilization was trampled, tattered and torn. It was a time of heart-breaking sorrow for the Chinese people.

The warmongering of the imperialists eventually reached such dizzying heights that they started to target each other, and with two great wars ripped their filthy empires apart. However, even the immense pain and self-destruction of the world wars taught the barbarians nothing. Since 1945 there has been a lengthy series of crises which demonstrate that a sword is still the only instrument simple enough for the barbarians’ dull minds to comprehend.

And so, China has corrected its course. The Chairman empowered the people of China to finally expel the imperial powers once and for all, and start again. This time, China will defend its great civilization and will not be subject to the rapine and looting that the barbarians continue to inflict upon their old colonial subjects around the world. Gone are the days of the Unequal Treaties and foreign concessions – the US, Japan and Russia may continue to bully many of their historic victims but they will not find a punch bag in China.

Russia is not a former colonial power, aside from the limited case of the treaty ports. Even the conquest of Siberia integrated the local populations into the Russian nation, and that was the last even pseudo colonial thing and it was 400 years ago. Russia has never attacked anyone who wasn't asking for it.

Nice! The Romanovs were asking for it. And the Afghans. And the inuit of Alaska. And the inuit of Russia. And all the Scandanavian countries at one point or another. And the Ottomans. And Turkey. And all the rape victims of Russian oligarch-supported mobsters.

[saxitoxin]

It is incidents like this that demonstrate exactly why Mao Zedong is still widely revered within China.

Old colonial powers such as the USA and Russia know nothing except brute force. Until contact with the barbarian imperial powers, China enjoyed a peaceful existence. It was the most refined civilization on the face of the planet, a land of the most exquisite and sophisticated culture ever known to man.

Unfortunately, a refined culture was no match for the cannons of the knuckle-dragging gorillas who came from abroad. As the world slowly succumbed to the Great Powers and their insatiable quest to subjugate all others, China soon found itself in the firing line, encircled by the vicious armies of Europe, Russia, Japan and the USA. It experienced a century of humiliation at the hands of the barbarians, and its great civilization was trampled, tattered and torn. It was a time of heart-breaking sorrow for the Chinese people.

The warmongering of the imperialists eventually reached such dizzying heights that they started to target each other, and with two great wars ripped their filthy empires apart. However, even the immense pain and self-destruction of the world wars taught the barbarians nothing. Since 1945 there has been a lengthy series of crises which demonstrate that a sword is still the only instrument simple enough for the barbarians’ dull minds to comprehend.

And so, China has corrected its course. The Chairman empowered the people of China to finally expel the imperial powers once and for all, and start again. This time, China will defend its great civilization and will not be subject to the rapine and looting that the barbarians continue to inflict upon their old colonial subjects around the world. Gone are the days of the Unequal Treaties and foreign concessions – the US, Japan and Russia may continue to bully many of their historic victims but they will not find a punch bag in China.

Russia is not a former colonial power, aside from the limited case of the treaty ports. Even the conquest of Siberia integrated the local populations into the Russian nation, and that was the last even pseudo colonial thing and it was 400 years ago. Russia has never attacked anyone who wasn't asking for it.

Nice! The Romanovs were asking for it. And the Afghans. And the inuit of Alaska. And the inuit of Russia. And all the Scandanavian countries at one point or another. And the Ottomans. And Turkey. And all the rape victims of Russian oligarch-supported mobsters.

Well, in the case of Afghanistan, Russia was simply a part of the USSR, a multiethnic nation, and Yuri Andropov was actually Ukrainian or Finnish or Ukrainian-Finnish or something IIRC!

[mrswdk]

Russian troops were one of the main contingent that invaded China during the Boxer Rebellion, captured Beijing and proceeded to loot and rape with abandon. Imperial Russia annexed Tannu Tuva from China in much the same way as they are currently annexing Crimea, and USSR interference is what led to the splitting of Mongolia from China, breaking a bond that had existed since the Yuan Dynasty was established in the 13th century.

Russia's history of expansionism, division and subjugation is every bit as malign as that of the other Great Powers.