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American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

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American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:32 am

United States: A recent survey by Princeton University and Northwestern University has found that the United States more closely resembles an oligarchy than a democracy. Analyzing the results of 1,779 survey questions asked between 1981 and 2002 on public policy issues and the results of related policy proposals, the researchers concluded, “Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.” They therefore describe the American government as a system of “biased pluralism” where policy outcomes “tend to tilt towards the wishes of corporations and business and professional associations.” This study comes amid record-low approval ratings of Congress and a recent controversial Supreme Court decision that abolishes campaign-contribution limits. The report, titled “Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens,” can be found here.


I really suggest you read the report too.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby saxitoxin on Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:01 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
United States: A recent survey by Princeton University and Northwestern University has found that the United States more closely resembles an oligarchy than a democracy. Analyzing the results of 1,779 survey questions asked between 1981 and 2002 on public policy issues and the results of related policy proposals, the researchers concluded, “Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.” They therefore describe the American government as a system of “biased pluralism” where policy outcomes “tend to tilt towards the wishes of corporations and business and professional associations.” This study comes amid record-low approval ratings of Congress and a recent controversial Supreme Court decision that abolishes campaign-contribution limits. The report, titled “Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens,” can be found here.


I really suggest you read the report too.


That's a good find, DY.

THAT SAID, after reading the first half of the report, I note they reference C. Wright Mills' The Power Elite. Saxi has previously (and before the date of this study), here in the Conquer Club, referenced that old, little regarded book The Power Elite and people just roll their eyes and say "oh that's just ol' Sax - what's he jibber-jabberin' about?" So do I need to sign my posts "Saxi - presented by Princeton" in the future or what?
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby DoomYoshi on Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:02 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:
United States: A recent survey by Princeton University and Northwestern University has found that the United States more closely resembles an oligarchy than a democracy. Analyzing the results of 1,779 survey questions asked between 1981 and 2002 on public policy issues and the results of related policy proposals, the researchers concluded, “Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.” They therefore describe the American government as a system of “biased pluralism” where policy outcomes “tend to tilt towards the wishes of corporations and business and professional associations.” This study comes amid record-low approval ratings of Congress and a recent controversial Supreme Court decision that abolishes campaign-contribution limits. The report, titled “Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens,” can be found here.


I really suggest you read the report too.


That's a good find, DY.

THAT SAID, after reading the first half of the report, I note they reference C. Wright Mills' The Power Elite. Saxi has previously (and before the date of this study), here in the Conquer Club, referenced that old, little regarded book The Power Elite and people just roll their eyes and say "oh that's just ol' Sax - what's he jibber-jabberin' about?" So do I need to sign my posts "Saxi - presented by Princeton" in the future or what?


Kind of, yeah.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby mrswdk on Tue Apr 22, 2014 1:05 pm

Reports like this are just the ghost of Karl Marx coming back to do some more coveting of his neighbor's ass.

The power to control policy would lie very squarely in the hands of 'ordinary people' if they were to actually get organized and do some counter-lobbying. However, they don't.

Why? Maybe 'the bourgeoisie elites' are simply better at getting organized and bringing pressure to bear on their nation's policy-makers than 'the proletariat masses' are. Or maybe the average man on the street just doesn't care that much.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Wed Apr 23, 2014 9:34 pm

mrswdk wrote:Reports like this are just the ghost of Karl Marx coming back to do some more coveting of his neighbor's ass.

The power to control policy would lie very squarely in the hands of 'ordinary people' if they were to actually get organized and do some counter-lobbying. However, they don't.

Why? Maybe 'the bourgeoisie elites' are simply better at getting organized and bringing pressure to bear on their nation's policy-makers than 'the proletariat masses' are. Or maybe the average man on the street just doesn't care that much.


Yes, the Koch brothers are finger-painting some picket signs in their kitchen right now to petition [Policy X] as we speak. Their hard work and dedication to stopping [policy x] with hours of tireless hardship with like-minded individuals exercising the freedom of assembly is going to stop that [Policy X].

Or...they can just slip some [x]million dollars at someone and keep their interests vested. If not at the policymakers, to someone else who can. The amount of money these people have is mind-boggling. It's simply proven to be a more effective strategy.

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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby mrswdk on Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:49 pm

The poor, down-trodden proletariat collectively have enough votes that they can deny political power to any politicians who put the wishes of on rich lobbyist over the wishes of the general electorate. However, they don't. They keep on voting for those politicians. Which sure sounds like a big 'we don't really care' to me.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby DoomYoshi on Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:53 am

mrswdk wrote:The poor, down-trodden proletariat collectively have enough votes that they can deny political power to any politicians who put the wishes of on rich lobbyist over the wishes of the general electorate. However, they don't. They keep on voting for those politicians. Which sure sounds like a big 'we don't really care' to me.


It might be a "we don't care". It's a really scary time we are living in. All over the world, people are choosing to give up fundamental freedoms. All over the world, totalitarianism is on the rise. I don't understand how in the internet era, polled Russians can say they don't give 2 shits about Ukraine but then a month later when the troops roll in, Russians "deeply care" about Ukraine. It's like watching yourself in a puppet show.

I do understand how the American situation is unfolding. Basically, the American middle class doesn't realize it is being eaten away at. They are in a kind of stupor, as if Conquer Stars represent an increase in the quality of life.

On the other hand, the march against modernity that is politics in most countries isn't entirely unappealing to me. The best possible outcome is thermonuclear warfare. Right now I am at the right age, with enough skills, resources and contacts to capitalize on this. I also don't have enough to lose, as I simply am not old enough to have acquired piles of material goods.

Basically, everyone who doesn't support nukes wants me to live a suboptimal life.

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On an entirely different note, my question is how do you find a politician who will not put the interests of lobbyists over general electorate? It seems like a rather inpractical thing. The problem isn't the politicians. I doubt very many of them wake up and say "How can I do what is not in the public's interest today?". The problem is systemic, in that there isn't a reasonable system in place to evaluate policies. All the think tanks create noise, noise, noise. The only real political check is losing for 4 years. Not a biggie (yes, in Washington terms it is; but not really).

This stems down to American culture. It's not only the politicians. There is not a single thing in American culture which holds people accountable for their actions. For those of you skimming: There is not a single thing in American culture which holds people accountable for their actions. I drive a truck at work. If I run somebody over, it's not an automatic firing (it happens all the time lol). Instead my employer's insurance company pays the person/vehicle's insurance company. Doesn't that seem totally fucked to you? If it doesn't, you are the worst part of American society. You ruined it for the rest of us.

Men are abandoning children all over the place, people are getting tatoos, animals are being abandoned. Of the 13 billion birds in North America, 5 billion are killed every year by F. domesticus. Who has been punished for this? What system even exists to ask that question? Instead of responsibility, we have liability.

------------------------------

I would propose an every 12 years accountability fest. Basically, everyone registers as they vote. A random punishment is drawn and that's what they get. Punishments run from acquittals, to being locked in a factory chicken-farm with a barely sublethal dose of LSD; to dismemberment and death; to fines and prison time.

You probably did something wrong in the preceding 12 years. The twin gods of Luck and Chance will know what punishment you deserve. Really, 95% of the choices should be genital mutilation, for those of you who voted for either Bush or Obama. However, I am willing to concede this point.

Please note that I am fully in favor of US invading Canada prior to this implementation. It would make smokes a lot cheaper.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby mrswdk on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:43 am

DoomYoshi wrote:Men are abandoning children all over the place, people are getting tatoos, animals are being abandoned


#wat
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby mrswdk on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:53 am

People with a lot of power/privilege have always sought to maximize their advantage, just the same as people with less power/privilege do the same thing. That won't go away, whatever system you install. You gotta just accept that.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby rdsrds2120 on Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:25 am

mrswdk wrote:People with a lot of power/privilege have always sought to maximize their advantage, just the same as people with less power/privilege do the same thing. That won't go away, whatever system you install. You gotta just accept that.


Scale matters. You can't ignore the relative differences in power, shrug your shoulders, and say "meh happens."

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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby mrswdk on Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:33 am

Well as we have already discussed, America's politicians can only get into power with the explicit support of America's people. Average Americans already have the power to change their system. The fact they don't is not because they can't but because they don't really care.

Black people used to be totally, systemically marginalized and disenfranchised in the US, and they managed to change their situation and the way their government treated them. The only thing stopping the entire population of the US from taking on a few rich old men is apathy.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:56 pm

mrswdk wrote:Well as we have already discussed, America's politicians can only get into power with the explicit support of America's people. Average Americans already have the power to change their system. The fact they don't is not because they can't but because they don't really care.

Black people used to be totally, systemically marginalized and disenfranchised in the US, and they managed to change their situation and the way their government treated them. The only thing stopping the entire population of the US from taking on a few rich old men is apathy.


Actually it was New York Jews and the Zionist lobby that pulled out that win. A black man in the US has a 40% chance of going to prison. That's not total systemic marginalization, but it's not far from it either.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:26 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:the Zionist lobby that pulled out that win


SAY WAT
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:32 pm

WAT.
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby Jmac1026 on Fri Apr 25, 2014 1:43 pm

Wat.
Army of GOD wrote:I should stop posting...
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby notyou2 on Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:21 pm

Angkor WAT?
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Re: American Oligarchy: Do you agree?

Postby DoomYoshi on Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:45 pm

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