What video/computer game are you currently playing?

[AndyDufresne]

Only silly people purchase games for more than like $25 anyways. Though unfortunately, sales aren't always available outside of the USA and Canada.


--Andy

[Gillipig]

Yeah...I started developing software professionally in 1992...I gave up pirating a number of years before that. Pirating used to be discouraged in the software development community, so it was a choice I made to help me professionally. I just happen to agree with it now that I'm a little older and wiser.

I started pirating software in the early 1980's (on an Atari 8-bit machine with a 300 baud modem and an exterior 5.25" floppy drive). Most pirating was done on BBS's or in person in those days.

Okay grandpa.

Thankfully, I don't have children. But it's been a pleasure enlightening the young and naive.

I'm happy that your genes were not spread to the next generation.

Hahaha!!

Thanks for caring. Humanity will just have to suffer without the participation of my bloodline.

Maybe someday theft will be morally acceptable for everyone and you won't have to be an insulting douche bag just because someone disagrees with your unethical behaviour.

I am a douche bag there's no point in denying that, but I would contest your statement that I disagree with you on the morality of downloading copyrighted material. I never said I thought it was morally okay to download copyrighted material, I do it anyway of course, but I realize that I'm watching/using/playing something I haven't paid for. I haven't de facto "stolen" anything as nobody's game is missing because I took it from them, so theft is not the right word, I've been a leech however, watching/playing a movie/video game I haven't paid for is similar to reading a newspaper over someone elses shoulder. I haven't paid for the newspaper, and yet I'm reading the words the man next to me paid to be able to read. If you are going to be consistent you'd have to accuse me of "stealing" that newspaper just by reading it. And for some reason I doubt you'd do that. But perhaps I'm wrong, I know old folks really don't like it when someone glances at their newspaper.

[TheProwler]

So your assertion is that downloading or copying music is theft as it's, what, denying money from the artist? So we can infer that the trade of copyrighted material is theft?

The law defines what is theft and what isn't theft.

What's your stance on pawn shops and used record stores? Should we shut them down for theft? The artist sees not a dime from the sale of used records/cds, ergo in your definition it is theft.

Hahahaha!!! You are making a lot of assumptions.

What's your stance on pawn shops and used record stores?
Pawn shops are fine...I think we are part of a wasteful society and reusing items is a good thing in a lot of cases.

Should we shut them down for theft?
I am not a part of a law enforcement agency so I should not even consider shutting them down for theft, assuming they stole something...?

The artist sees not a dime from the sale of used records/cds, ergo in your definition it is theft.
I don't have the power to re-define the word "theft". It's interesting that you think you do...

And sure, if I had the know-how and the machining equipment, I would totally manufacture more engines and sell them. Isn't this pretty much how off-brands make money? I can go to the store and buy a Microsoft xbox controller for $50, or I can buy the cheaper no-name version for $20. Should we charge mechanic shops with theft because they're buying burnt out engines and rebuilding them for a profit, or the game controller manufacturers for ripping off a design?

Your lack of understanding of intellectual property is astounding.

3d printers are gonna be a nightmare for you, aren't they?

You are projecting your heightened emotional involvement of this subject onto me. I am not that worried about it. I choose to support the industry that creates software for profit. I don't think it's right or ethical to steal something, including non-tangibles, just because it's easy to steal it.

You seem to have a guilty conscience.

[TheProwler]

i'm not defending piracy but a huge part of the world would not be able to use any software if it weren't for torrents.

if a game in usa costs 60USD then in my country that is automatically transformed into 60EUR plus whatever the retailer ads to get his share. to pay 60eur or more for a new game is insane, considering last month the average salary in my country was 362eur.
who in the right mind would pay more than a 6th of his salary to get a game?

imagine a kid asking his parents for that kind of money. "hey, mom, dad, let's not eat for 10 days cause i want to play the new call of duty."

of course this does not justify piracy. in theory if you can't afford it, then you don't buy it and that's it.
but what if everybody around you is pirating and listening to the newest music, seeing the latest movies and playing all the cool games? could you resist the temptation knowing nothing will happen to you? heck, piracy is so widespread that even big companies have pirated software on their computers and nobody gives a damn.

if prices were made differently for each country as a percentage of the average salary, and if laws against piracy were really applied, then i'd surely pay for original games. of course i'd play a lot less than i do now.

PS: photoshop cs6 is ~840 EUR. so if you have an average salary you'd have to pay 2 and a half months' wage for this software.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about countries where the cost for software is disproportionately high. I can understand how you don't have much choice in that situation.

[TheProwler]

I am a douche bag there's no point in denying that, but I would contest your statement that I disagree with you on the morality of downloading copyrighted material. I never said I thought it was morally okay to download copyrighted material, I do it anyway of course, but I realize that I'm watching/using/playing something I haven't paid for. I haven't de facto "stolen" anything as nobody's game is missing because I took it from them, so theft is not the right word, I've been a leech however, watching/playing a movie/video game I haven't paid for is similar to reading a newspaper over someone elses shoulder. I haven't paid for the newspaper, and yet I'm reading the words the man next to me paid to be able to read. If you are going to be consistent you'd have to accuse me of "stealing" that newspaper just by reading it. And for some reason I doubt you'd do that. But perhaps I'm wrong, I know old folks really don't like it when someone glances at their newspaper.

I don't know the laws around newspapers, but I don't think reading over someone's shoulder is breaking any of them. I am pretty sure it is entirely legal for multiple people to read the same copy of a newspaper. Just like with a lot of copyrighted software, multiple users can use the same installation of the software. You can sneak up to your mom's computer and load up a game of "Bonecraft" anytime, and it's perfectly legal.

When something is created and the creator goes through the process (including the cost) of protecting the intellectual property so that it is illegal to copy/share/distribute it by law, then I think it's stealing when those laws are broken.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

So your assertion is that downloading or copying music is theft as it's, what, denying money from the artist? So we can infer that the trade of copyrighted material is theft?

The law defines what is theft and what isn't theft.

What's your stance on pawn shops and used record stores? Should we shut them down for theft? The artist sees not a dime from the sale of used records/cds, ergo in your definition it is theft.

Hahahaha!!! You are making a lot of assumptions.

What's your stance on pawn shops and used record stores?
Pawn shops are fine...I think we are part of a wasteful society and reusing items is a good thing in a lot of cases.

Should we shut them down for theft?
I am not a part of a law enforcement agency so I should not even consider shutting them down for theft, assuming they stole something...?

The artist sees not a dime from the sale of used records/cds, ergo in your definition it is theft.
I don't have the power to re-define the word "theft". It's interesting that you think you do...

And sure, if I had the know-how and the machining equipment, I would totally manufacture more engines and sell them. Isn't this pretty much how off-brands make money? I can go to the store and buy a Microsoft xbox controller for $50, or I can buy the cheaper no-name version for $20. Should we charge mechanic shops with theft because they're buying burnt out engines and rebuilding them for a profit, or the game controller manufacturers for ripping off a design?

Your lack of understanding of intellectual property is astounding.

3d printers are gonna be a nightmare for you, aren't they?

You are projecting your heightened emotional involvement of this subject onto me. I am not that worried about it. I choose to support the industry that creates software for profit. I don't think it's right or ethical to steal something, including non-tangibles, just because it's easy to steal it.

You seem to have a guilty conscience.

Heightened emotional involvement? Lol. You assume too much. I've never pirated copyrighted music. The only music I've ever torrented is music in the public domain (Dvorak, Chopin, Liszt, etc).

I merely pointed out an inconsistency in your position. Like I said, by your definition of theft, (or society's if you wish to be obtuse), then selling used CDs is also theft since you said I don't own the music.

I also don't like gov'ts telling me what I do and don't own.

The use of copyright laws, especially in regards to music, is merely a tool for record distributors to rake in more money. If you wish to buy into the fallacy that copying music is theft, then that's your problem, I guess.

-TG

[TheProwler]

Heightened emotional involvement? Lol. You assume too much.

You're talking about nightmares. For....some......reason....

I've never pirated copyrighted music. The only music I've ever torrented is music in the public domain (Dvorak, Chopin, Liszt, etc).

I watched a DVD that I borrowed from the library earlier this evening.

I merely pointed out an inconsistency in your position.

No, you didn't. You might think you did. But you only asked a bunch of questions and assumed you knew the answers before you heard them.

Like I said, by your definition of theft, (or society's if you wish to be obtuse), then selling used CDs is also theft since you said I don't own the music.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think that if the agreement of ownership of the CD is that the ownership is transferable, then there is no problem selling used CD's.

I also don't like gov'ts telling me what I do and don't own.

You don't own your neighbour's car.

The use of copyright laws, especially in regards to music, is merely a tool for record distributors to rake in more money.

Obviously. That's kinda the whole fuckin' point. They stop making money, they stop making music.

If you wish to buy into the fallacy that copying music is theft, then that's your problem, I guess.

-TG

You are familiar with material that is in the public domain. If the people who made the music wanted it to be released in the public domain, then they would have released it that way. If they didn't, then they wanted people to honour the terms that they stipulate.

It is against the law to copy and distribute certain copyrighted material. That is not a fallacy.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

You're talking about nightmares. For....some......reason....

Um... Context and common idioms? How do you view 3d printers if you're so worried about design copyright?

No, you didn't. You might think you did. But you only asked a bunch of questions and assumed you knew the answers before you heard them.

How are you not getting this? Why do you define copying music as theft?

And to be precise, it's not actually theft in the eyes of the law, it's copyright infringement. So while you're touting your adherence to law and calling the torrenters thieves, they're actually copyright infringers.

You don't own your neighbour's car.

I also didn't purchase my neighbor's car, a very material object composed of metals and plastics and whatnot. If my neighbor came over and said i don't own parts of my car, I'd tell him to kick rocks. If he wishes to share joint ownership of his car then that's his business.

Obviously. That's kinda the whole fuckin' point. They stop making money, they stop making music.

Lookit, I'm all for them wringing out every last dollar they can get out of it... within limits. When they use the threat of force and punitive damages (by lobbying government to make copyright infringement a crime), they go too far.

If you start a business and your method to guarantee future sales is to throw in with a gang with large guns, then you aren't a business person, you're simply a thug.

-TG

[BigBallinStalin]

Good thing for guys like you who buy them when they're new so the game developers make their money. If everyone were as cheap as me,the industry would fall apart.

actually, i torrent all my games/music/movies/books/software.

Well, I obviously take back what I said. I stopped pirating games software about 25 years ago.

Just because you can steal and get away with it, doesn't mean you should do it...

Cyber content is different; it's non-rivalrous. Once I download it, it's not like yours no longer exists. Instead, we get two--as oppose to theft which results in one.

I haven't been a big fan of intellectual property rights--specifically patents. I view movies, music, and games as all 'try before you buy', and if I really like it, I'll send a check or see them live or what not. Cuts out the unnecessary middlemen.

You're just justifying your theft, in my opinion. If something isn't released as "try before you buy", then the owners didn't want you to have that opportunity. Digital content is easy to copy, so it is easy to steal.

In the big picture, the people producing the movie/software/music are doing it (at least in part) to make money. If they don't make enough money, they'll stop producing it.

Just my opinion, but I think you're a thief.

Then they have to innovate--like the movie business did when televisions were created.

Don't ever use Youtube or any such places--if you take intellectual property rights so seriously. You'll be a thief. Don't sing any songs either. That's copyright infringement. God forbid if you hum any riff or play a drum beat too; we should take you to court for violating someone's copyright.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey, If I see a game like Wolfenstein that I am really unsure will be a great game or a flop game I usually watch people play some of it on http://www.twitch.tv -- That is a great way to see actual gameplay and easy to see if you will enjoy it or not

heres a link to all the people currently streaming wolfenstein
http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Wol ... ew%20Order


fastposted

Sometimes I watch reviews on YouTube in addition to reading reviews of games. It's worth spending a few minutes researching a game to try to get a good idea of whether or not you'll like it..

They're most likely violating the owners' intellectual property rights. If they are, and since you're viewing their videos, then you're contributing to theft. How does that feel? Before viewing any youtube review, did you ensure that the poster did not violate anyone's copyrights? Do you send out emails and contact your local governor?

Outright violation of intellectual property rights greatly contributed to US economic development early on--much like what the Chinese are doing today.

At some point the IP laws made sense, but after decades of rent-seeking, it's gotten out of hand, so I'll just ignore the laws. If you like predatory laws that restrict culture and even economic development and innovation, then please insist on others to follow such laws. I don't see how that leads to any beneficial change, but you know how moral righteousness goes.

edit: sorry, Andy. It's my last off-topic post ITT.

[AndyDufresne]

I finished Doom 1. I'll play Doom 2 sometime, but I probably need a break from shooting hell demons in the face.

Also, Amazon is having a "mayhem" sale likely with deep and steep discounts over the next week or so: http://www.amazon.com/Game-Downloads


--Andy

[DiM]

Very pleasantly surprised with Transistor

PS: the game must be played with quality headphones.

[AndyDufresne]

Very pleasantly surprised with Transistor

PS: the game must be played with quality headphones.

I was looking at the game a little a day or so ago, seeing if it looked interesting. What do you make of it? What does it remind you of, or compare to?


--Andy

[Dukasaur]

Simple Ansewr: You own the disk, the content on the disk is copyrighted and owned by another person. And distributing it without their consent is technically illegal.

So I don't own the engine in my car?

-TG

You own the engine = You own the CD

You do not own the design of the engine = You do not own the music

So I can't make after-market modifications to my engine? Gee, that sucks.

-TG

You can modify your engine.

Assuming that your engine contains at least some patented devices, you cannot build a clone of your engine and sell it to your neighbour, no.

If your engine is old enough that none of the devices in it are under patent anymore, you can clone it.

[TheProwler]

You're talking about nightmares. For....some......reason....

Um... Context and common idioms? How do you view 3d printers if you're so worried about design copyright?

No, you didn't. You might think you did. But you only asked a bunch of questions and assumed you knew the answers before you heard them.

How are you not getting this? Why do you define copying music as theft?

And to be precise, it's not actually theft in the eyes of the law, it's copyright infringement. So while you're touting your adherence to law and calling the torrenters thieves, they're actually copyright infringers.

You don't own your neighbour's car.

I also didn't purchase my neighbor's car, a very material object composed of metals and plastics and whatnot. If my neighbor came over and said i don't own parts of my car, I'd tell him to kick rocks. If he wishes to share joint ownership of his car then that's his business.

Obviously. That's kinda the whole fuckin' point. They stop making money, they stop making music.

Lookit, I'm all for them wringing out every last dollar they can get out of it... within limits. When they use the threat of force and punitive damages (by lobbying government to make copyright infringement a crime), they go too far.

If you start a business and your method to guarantee future sales is to throw in with a gang with large guns, then you aren't a business person, you're simply a thug.

-TG

I think you missed the point.

[TheProwler]

Then they have to innovate--like the movie business did when televisions were created.

Don't ever use Youtube or any such places--if you take intellectual property rights so seriously. You'll be a thief. Don't sing any songs either. That's copyright infringement. God forbid if you hum any riff or play a drum beat too; we should take you to court for violating someone's copyright.

It isn't always black and white. You're reasonable enough to understand the difference between humming a song and making an illegal copy of an entire box set, right?

[TheProwler]

They're most likely violating the owners' intellectual property rights. If they are, and since you're viewing their videos, then you're contributing to theft. How does that feel? Before viewing any youtube review, did you ensure that the poster did not violate anyone's copyrights? Do you send out emails and contact your local governor?

Outright violation of intellectual property rights greatly contributed to US economic development early on--much like what the Chinese are doing today.

At some point the IP laws made sense, but after decades of rent-seeking, it's gotten out of hand, so I'll just ignore the laws. If you like predatory laws that restrict culture and even economic development and innovation, then please insist on others to follow such laws. I don't see how that leads to any beneficial change, but you know how moral righteousness goes.

edit: sorry, Andy. It's my last off-topic post ITT.

Reading a review about a game or watching a YouTube video of the game is not the same as stealing the game and playing it.

Why don't you think it's right to pay someone for their hard work?

[TheProwler]

You can modify your engine.

Assuming that your engine contains at least some patented devices, you cannot build a clone of your engine and sell it to your neighbour, no.

If your engine is old enough that none of the devices in it are under patent anymore, you can clone it.

I think he's gonna copy it with a 3D printer and wonder why it doesn't work!!

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I think you missed the point.

I didn't. It's just a stupid point. Whether copyright infringement as defined by law is illegal is beside the point I'm making, also which you've avoided to address in any way outside of law.

Laws change, and gov'ts make laws all the time that are exploitive or take advantage of others for monetary gain.

If this were 150 years ago, would you be prattling on about how slavery is legal, and freeing slaves is theft?

-TG

[Gillipig]

I think you missed the point.

I didn't. It's just a stupid point. Whether copyright infringement as defined by law is illegal is beside the point I'm making, also which you've avoided to address in any way outside of law.

Laws change, and gov'ts make laws all the time that are exploitive or take advantage of others for monetary gain.

If this were 150 years ago, would you be prattling on about how slavery is legal, and freeing slaves is theft?

-TG

I'm still prattling on about that. But you make a good point, laws vary based on time and place, following them may be wise but they are by no means a trumph card when it comes to determining what is moral and what is not. If that was the case your own morality would have to be relative to wherever you stand at the moment. If you step over the border to Mexico your morality would have to change on a number of issues, based on nothing other than lines drawn on a map. Let's say you live in New York and get in your car and drive to Philadelphia, well your view on the death penalty would have to change the moment you drive by a sign saying "Welcome to Pennsylvania". What is legal and what is not legal doesn't dictate what is moral and what is immoral. Laws are ever changing and never at any point free from fault.

[DoomYoshi]

Copyright laws are bullshit ever since Disney pushed them to 75 years. 5 years past the death of the author is good enough.

[TheProwler]

I think you missed the point.

I didn't. It's just a stupid point. Whether copyright infringement as defined by law is illegal is beside the point I'm making, also which you've avoided to address in any way outside of law.

Laws change, and gov'ts make laws all the time that are exploitive or take advantage of others for monetary gain.

If this were 150 years ago, would you be prattling on about how slavery is legal, and freeing slaves is theft?

-TG

- Company spends time and money making a product with the intent of selling it to make a profit to earn a living.

- Company sells product under the terms that it will not be duplicated, because it intends to sell more copies to recover their expenses and hopefully eventually make a profit.

- Purchaser breaks terms and distributes illegal copies.

- TG has no idea how this can be considered unethical and he blames the government

[TheProwler]

I'm still prattling on about that. But you make a good point, laws vary based on time and place, following them may be wise but they are by no means a trumph card when it comes to determining what is moral and what is not. If that was the case your own morality would have to be relative to wherever you stand at the moment. If you step over the border to Mexico your morality would have to change on a number of issues, based on nothing other than lines drawn on a map. Let's say you live in New York and get in your car and drive to Philadelphia, well your view on the death penalty would have to change the moment you drive by a sign saying "Welcome to Pennsylvania". What is legal and what is not legal doesn't dictate what is moral and what is immoral. Laws are ever changing and never at any point free from fault.

Haha!!

Yeah, comparing "Freeing the slaves." to "Pirating video games." is one of the best points I've seen him make!!




What's truly ironic about this comparison, is that the people who support pirating have no problem with software developers slaving all day and night for months on end to produce a product, and then not compensating them fairly for their efforts.

150 years ago, you would be the slave owners!!

[AndyDufresne]

On an unrelated note, I purchased Kentucky Route Zero on a discount sale earlier this week, and I look forward to playing it this weekend. I've heard mostly good things about it, so I'll give it a go.




--Andy

[TheProwler]

On an unrelated note....

Stay on topic, please.