What's the Bigger Problem - Crack Cocaine or Materialism?

[DoomYoshi]

If someone is addicted to crack, they might always be behind a paycheque or two, they might get beat up a few times if they get farther behind then that.

If someone is materialistic, they might always be behind a year of paycheques or two, they might spend their whole life in misery.

Why do we only imprison crack dealers? Marketers should also be put in prison. Anyone trying to sell anything can f*ck right off. They contribute nothing to society.

[IcePack]

If someone is addicted to crack, they might always be behind a paycheque or two, they might get beat up a few times if they get farther behind then that.

If someone is materialistic, they might always be behind a year of paycheques or two, they might spend their whole life in misery.

Why do we only imprison crack dealers? Marketers should also be put in prison. Anyone trying to sell anything can f*ck right off. They contribute nothing to society.

....wanna buy a watch?

[mrswdk]

Is that 'materialism' or 'being too much of a child to manage one's personal finances properly'?

[Phatscotty]

plus for crack - millions of poor and unemployed people have 'jobs' dealing crack, which in turns provides extra income for strippers and casinos, which means crack help single mothers and native Americans
bonus for crack - they don't even have to work at those jobs
another bonus for crack - they get head and get to stick it in girlz butz while at their job

[DoomYoshi]

Is that 'materialism' or 'being too much of a child to manage one's personal finances properly'?

Not really. Being 25 years in debt to a house is considered normal adult behavior in North America.

Same with being 5-10 year in debt for a car.

10 years in debt for school is average.

[Phatscotty]

in America student debt > mortgage debt

[oVo]

Crack addict; might be unemployed because of their drug habit leaving only illegal activities available to them for cash to support their habit. Prostitution may be a victimless crime, but burglary, shoplifting and robbery aren't.

The materialistic person may not be living beyond their means, but there is still criminal potential to acquire all the things they want, shady business practices, fraud, identity theft, etc. and for those with too much capital. hoarding.

Beware of the hoarders and whores.

[kuthoer]

Without materialism, capitalism would shrivel and die.

Welcome back Karl Marx!

[oVo]

Welcome back Karl Marx!

Marx, Stalin & Co. were too paranoid and corrupt
to get it right. It's a fluke that capitalism has done
ok, simply because there's people involved.

Greed and the abuse of power fucks-up all governments
and a true democracy might just be impossible in
this era. The United States in it's present form is
certainly not a true democracy.

[patches70]

Marx, Stalin & Co. were too paranoid and corrupt
to get it right. It's a fluke that capitalism has done
ok, simply because there's people involved.

Greed and the abuse of power fucks-up all governments
and a true democracy might just be impossible in
this era. The United States in it's present form is
certainly not a true democracy.

What does democracy have to do with it? Do you think we'd be better off under a "true democracy"?

[mrswdk]

Is that 'materialism' or 'being too much of a child to manage one's personal finances properly'?

Not really. Being 25 years in debt to a house is considered normal adult behavior in North America.

Same with being 5-10 year in debt for a car.

10 years in debt for school is average.

No one I know has been made miserable by their mortgage.

Who takes out a loan on a car? That just means you can't afford it. Why not take out a loan on a TV or new pair of shoes while you're at it?

Paying for education is not 'materialism' and repaying any loans you took out to finance it will not make you miserable.

[Dukasaur]

I really don't know what planet you live on.

No one I know has been made miserable by their mortgage.

Probably 50% of the people I know who own a house struggle to come up with the mortgage payment. A lot pay 30 to 40 % of their income to the bank, but I've known at least two couples who were paying more than 65% of their income.

Who takes out a loan on a car? That just means you can't afford it.

Answer: about 84.5% of people in North America take out a loan on a car.
Source: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/09/car-financing-on-rise-loans-and-leases/index.htm
Does it mean you can't afford it? Well, maybe, but if you have a job you pretty much need a car. It is a rare person who is lucky enough to live within walking distance of work.

For instance, in 1985 I was without a car. The company that I worked for moved from Richmond Hill to Newmarket. The commute to Richmond Hill by bus had been brutal enough, but here's what my commute looked like after the move:
10 minute walk from my building in St. Jamestown to Castle Frank subway station
6 minute wait for subway train.
3 minute ride to Yonge-Bloor subway station.
6 minute wait for transfer to Yonge subway.
25 minute ride to Finch station.
20 minute wait for bus to Newmarket.
50 minute bus ride from Finch to Newmarket.
30 minute walk from Newmarket bus station to my factory on Davis Drive East.
Total time 150 minutes (2.5 hours.) Repeat at night, dog tired. Five hours a day to get to work and back. Of course I said, "f*ck it" and bought a car. By car the trip that was taking 2.5 hours turned into 20 minutes. A straight shot, 20 minutes up the 404 in the morning if I left before the traffic got heavy. Sometimes 40 to 60 minutes in the afternoon when traffic became unavoidable.

It's a no brainer. As it happened, I was offered a cheap car that I was able to buy with cash, but most people (well, 84.5% of people) in that situation would have had to buy a car on credit.

Why not take out a loan on a TV or new pair of shoes while you're at it?

Increasingly most people do. 35% of all routine sales for basic things like clothing and groceries are made with credit cards (source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/07/credit-card-payments-growth_n_1575417.html). 65% of Americans use their credit cards for at least some purchases of this nature. (Source:http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php)

Credit card users surveyed in 2012 who used their cards to buy:

• Clothing: 67 percent
  
• Gas: 64 percent
  
• Food: 64 percent
  
• Travel: 62 percent.33

55% of people who use credit cards carry a balance (in other words, cannot pay the full bill every month) so roughly one-third of all people, at least in North America, are taking out loans to buy shoes and food, not to mention TVs.

Paying for education is not 'materialism' and repaying any loans you took out to finance it will not make you miserable.

Actually, it does and it will. Increasingly, the struggle to pay student loans is pushing young people over the edge. We'll turn away from North America and go to Britain for our next example: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/mar/23/student-suicide-depression-debt-recession

Like many students, 23-year-old Thorn couldn't cope with his debt: the bank had just informed him he would not be able to withdraw any more money. When he died, he was £3,000 overdrawn and had a £5,000 student loan to pay off. At his inquest, the coroner said it would be wrong to suggest he had killed himself simply because of his debt, but it was a major contributory factor.

Around 1,400 under-35s kill themselves in the UK every year, and three-quarters of those are men or boys. It is hard to put a figure on how many of these deaths are related to the issue of debt, but according to a YouGov poll, money was the most common worry across the UK last year, with almost half of all callers to the Samaritans' helpline naming it as their main concern.

In 2011, a report from the Royal College of Psychiatrists revealed that an increasing number of British students were seeking help from mental health support services at a time of rising debt and fewer employment opportunities. Many of these services are now being stripped back. Yet demand is unlikely to abate over the next few years: with many British students paying £9,000 a year in tuition fees alone, it is estimated that young people will leave university with average debts of £40,000.

The figures showing a 50% increase in student suicides between 2007 and 2011 were released by the Office for National Statistics after a Freedom of Information request by Ed Pinkney, the founder of Mental Wealth UK, a student body committed to promoting wellbeing on university campuses. A spokesperson for the ONS warned against drawing conclusions, due to the small numbers involved, but Pinkney says, "It is difficult to see the rise in student suicides reversing if student debts continue to increase and support services continue to have their budgets threatened with cuts. This isn't just about the personal issues facing a minority of students. It's an academic issue, too. Just as buildings require strong foundations, students cannot be expected to thrive if they lack adequate support."

[DoomYoshi]

On the note of Education not being materialism... most schools are noticing that fewer students are taking arts majors and more schools are taking "practical" majors and occupational majors. The courses are so easy as to not be an actual education. One could argue that the college girls are their own reason for joining, but I imagine for most people its about "getting a better job" or as I like to call it "advancing the imaginary ladder that big corporate wants you to think is there so it can treat you like a chump playing Candy Crush Saga". This is the same ladder that I call materialism, and it keeps the corps in power, the democracy out, and the saxis cynical.

[mrswdk]

I really don't know what planet you live on.

Probably 50% of the people I know who own a house struggle to come up with the mortgage payment. A lot pay 30 to 40 % of their income to the bank, but I've known at least two couples who were paying more than 65% of their income.

Didn't they agree to make those payments in the first place?

if you have a job you pretty much need a car. It is a rare person who is lucky enough to live within walking distance of work.

Have you not heard of public transport or bicycles? I haven't driven a car, except for pleasure, for more than 5 years.

55% of people who use credit cards carry a balance (in other words, cannot pay the full bill every month).

Those people are fools. I'm not that old so let's take my father as a case study. My father has used a credit card for decades and has never once racked up a bill that he couldn't pay off at the end of the month. Seriously, who looks at a raincoat and thinks "I don't have the money for this, but what the hell?". Idiots.

If those people are using their cards to pay for food because they can't even afford that then that's different, but that's not materialism and so isn't related to this thread.

Like many students, 23-year-old Thorn couldn't cope with his debt: the bank had just informed him he would not be able to withdraw any more money. When he died, he was £3,000 overdrawn and had a £5,000 student loan to pay off.

UK student debt is only repaid when the individual earns a certain amount within any given month and repayments are proportional to their income. Plus, if they lose their job they stop paying. His overdraft was not due to his student loan.

[mrswdk]

On the note of Education not being materialism... most schools are noticing that fewer students are taking arts majors and more schools are taking "practical" majors and occupational majors. The courses are so easy as to not be an actual education. One could argue that the college girls are their own reason for joining, but I imagine for most people its about "getting a better job" or as I like to call it "advancing the imaginary ladder that big corporate wants you to think is there so it can treat you like a chump playing Candy Crush Saga". This is the same ladder that I call materialism, and it keeps the corps in power, the democracy out, and the saxis cynical.

What do you mean arts or practical majors? Which category includes majors such as Engineering or Biochemistry?

[DoomYoshi]

On the note of Education not being materialism... most schools are noticing that fewer students are taking arts majors and more schools are taking "practical" majors and occupational majors. The courses are so easy as to not be an actual education. One could argue that the college girls are their own reason for joining, but I imagine for most people its about "getting a better job" or as I like to call it "advancing the imaginary ladder that big corporate wants you to think is there so it can treat you like a chump playing Candy Crush Saga". This is the same ladder that I call materialism, and it keeps the corps in power, the democracy out, and the saxis cynical.

What do you mean arts or practical majors? Which category includes majors such as Engineering or Biochemistry?

Practical.

I really don't know what planet you live on.

Probably 50% of the people I know who own a house struggle to come up with the mortgage payment. A lot pay 30 to 40 % of their income to the bank, but I've known at least two couples who were paying more than 65% of their income.

Didn't they agree to make those payments in the first place?

if you have a job you pretty much need a car. It is a rare person who is lucky enough to live within walking distance of work.

Have you not heard of public transport or bicycles? I haven't driven a car, except for pleasure, for more than 5 years.

55% of people who use credit cards carry a balance (in other words, cannot pay the full bill every month).

Those people are fools. I'm not that old so let's take my father as a case study. My father has used a credit card for decades and has never once racked up a bill that he couldn't pay off at the end of the month. Seriously, who looks at a raincoat and thinks "I don't have the money for this, but what the hell?". Idiots.

If those people are using their cards to pay for food because they can't even afford that then that's different, but that's not materialism and so isn't related to this thread.

Like many students, 23-year-old Thorn couldn't cope with his debt: the bank had just informed him he would not be able to withdraw any more money. When he died, he was £3,000 overdrawn and had a £5,000 student loan to pay off.

UK student debt is only repaid when the individual earns a certain amount within any given month and repayments are proportional to their income. Plus, if they lose their job they stop paying. His overdraft was not due to his student loan.

I am not arguing that it is impossible to live responsibly. However, stats show that people do not. Which brings us back to the original question - what is the bigger problem in the world?

[patches70]

I am not arguing that it is impossible to live responsibly. However, stats show that people do not. Which brings us back to the original question - what is the bigger problem in the world?

It's not materialism that you are railing against. you have misidentified the culprit. You see the symptoms and you've made a diagnosis. Unfortunately, your diagnosis is wrong. Materialism itself is also a symptom of the true culprit. It's like blaming the cause of a cold on having a runny nose.


Nice try, though. You have to go a bit deeper to find the cause.

[mrswdk]

What do you mean arts or practical majors? Which category includes majors such as Engineering or Biochemistry?

Practical.

Aside from your 'so easy as to not be an actual education' claim (which I'm guessing you wouldn't really apply to a subject like Biochemistry) I don't think it's at all accurate to say that most people do those subjects merely in order to try and climb some anonymous corporate ladder.

I studied a 'pure' humanities major at undergrad followed by a postgraduate that would probably meet your standards of 'practical' and 'easy'. However, the reason I chose that postgrad was because it was designed specifically for the field I wanted to work in. I enjoy my work and I do it because I enjoy it, not because I'm trying to climb some sort of corporate ladder.

Ironically, the only person I know who sold out and started trying to climb a corporate ladder that he didn't really want to be on was a guy who studied a humanities major.

I imagine that for people who study majors like 'Business' or 'Marketing' then what you say holds true, but for other applied subjects my experience is that people generally study them because they enjoy them and wish to prepare for work in a field which they will enjoy working in.

[mrswdk]

Fun anecdote: when subjects like engineering first appeared as academic disciplines in the UK, during the onset of the Industrial Revolution, they were sniffed at and shunned by professors who considered them too vocational and not academic enough (compared to traditional disciplines such as philosophy and theology). Colleagues of the first ever engineering professor (who I believe taught at St. Andrew's) used to book out all of the rooms in their building so that he would have nowhere to teach.

[DoomYoshi]

which I'm guessing you wouldn't really apply to a subject like Biochemistry

Biochemistry is exactly the type of subject I am talking about. Of all the Biochems I took, only Organic Chem was hard and that was because you actually had to go to the labs. That cuts 3 hours a week, making it one of the hardest courses.

None of the other ones had any sort of actually going to lab, lecture or study periods being required for getting a B.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

which I'm guessing you wouldn't really apply to a subject like Biochemistry

Biochemistry is exactly the type of subject I am talking about. Of all the Biochems I took, only Organic Chem was hard and that was because you actually had to go to the labs. That cuts 3 hours a week, making it one of the hardest courses.

None of the other ones had any sort of actually going to lab, lecture or study periods being required for getting a B.

I'm in a biochem major simply because I want to get into some research.

-TG

[AndyDufresne]

which I'm guessing you wouldn't really apply to a subject like Biochemistry

Biochemistry is exactly the type of subject I am talking about. Of all the Biochems I took, only Organic Chem was hard and that was because you actually had to go to the labs. That cuts 3 hours a week, making it one of the hardest courses.

None of the other ones had any sort of actually going to lab, lecture or study periods being required for getting a B.

I'm in a biochem major simply because I want to get into some research.

-TG

Ta1gunn3r file photo:




--Andy

[Dukasaur]

which I'm guessing you wouldn't really apply to a subject like Biochemistry

Biochemistry is exactly the type of subject I am talking about. Of all the Biochems I took, only Organic Chem was hard and that was because you actually had to go to the labs. That cuts 3 hours a week, making it one of the hardest courses.

None of the other ones had any sort of actually going to lab, lecture or study periods being required for getting a B.

They must have really dumbed it down since my day. When I took Biochem it was pretty universally acknowledged as one of the toughest majors. Calculating bond angles in nucleic acids was some of the toughest math I've ever done, and trying to remember the 20,000,000 different synthesis pathways, sulfonation, alkylation, methylation, it defeated the memory capacity of most people I met.

[mrswdk]

which I'm guessing you wouldn't really apply to a subject like Biochemistry

Biochemistry is exactly the type of subject I am talking about. Of all the Biochems I took, only Organic Chem was hard and that was because you actually had to go to the labs. That cuts 3 hours a week, making it one of the hardest courses.

None of the other ones had any sort of actually going to lab, lecture or study periods being required for getting a B.

Oh. So you actually are writing off all subjects that aren't 'pure' arts? Good luck with that.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

which I'm guessing you wouldn't really apply to a subject like Biochemistry

Biochemistry is exactly the type of subject I am talking about. Of all the Biochems I took, only Organic Chem was hard and that was because you actually had to go to the labs. That cuts 3 hours a week, making it one of the hardest courses.

None of the other ones had any sort of actually going to lab, lecture or study periods being required for getting a B.

They must have really dumbed it down since my day. When I took Biochem it was pretty universally acknowledged as one of the toughest majors. Calculating bond angles in nucleic acids was some of the toughest math I've ever done, and trying to remember the 20,000,000 different synthesis pathways, sulfonation, alkylation, methylation, it defeated the memory capacity of most people I met.

Yeah, I don't know about where Doom went to school, but the biochem program in my area, both undergrad and graduate, is geared for serious research. There're all sorts of programs in medicine, bio energy, conservation, biotech, etc. it's a pretty great degree, and not easy. Maybe he's just the Einstein of biochemistry.

-TG