40 Hour Work Week & Poverty

[Phatscotty]

Ever notice?

Many of the people promoting this message are spending $200-300-400-500 per month on cigarettes, and/or $100-200/month on pot, perhaps $100-300 dollars on cocaine, meth, prescription pills, possibly combined with/separately $100 on gas driving to a casino back n forth and probably dropping another $100-300 on average more into games tilted against them winning? Perhaps $50-100 a month on lottery tickets? Many of them go to restaurants at least once a day if not twice, and many of them don't even attempt to stretch the little money they have left by shopping smarter? Perhaps much more at strip club or throwing money at women who don't even like them?

The key is also to look at what people do with their money and understand that monetary irresponsibility/waste is just as much a factor if not more so than what the wage is. I constantly see people with little money in line ahead of me at the convenience store buying 2 packs of cigarettes and 5 lottery tickets. Less frequently but often enough I see people in line ahead of me at the grocery store paying for their steaks and 24 packs of soda and numerous bags of potato chips with food stamps/ebt. I notice a friend of mine who is easily considered to be in 'poverty' buys her kids each their own xbox 360 as well as each a playstation 4 'so they don't fight' and goes to the casino every single weekend for years, goes on cruise ships in the Bahamas every April when she gets that earned income credit 'to help her kids'...ever notice some people in poverty not only choose poverty, but focus much effort to stay in 'poverty' by making sure they don't work over a certain amount of hours'?

I do. I notice it all the time!

I'm not trying to say poverty isn't real and that people don't ever need help, but I am saying these BS zombie repeat lines all too often and perhaps intentionally so avoid looking at the other side of the equation when it comes to why people are in poverty, besides wages. And the other side is personal responsibility/irresponsibility ie what people DO with their money. The zombie repeaters will go on and on about what the oppressive corporation does with their money, or what the investor does with their money, but will stop you dead in your tracks if you dare to question what an impoverished person does with their money.

[nietzsche]

Get off your high horses.

Not everyone thinks like you.

If you need to remind yourself that is because you dont understand something and are trying to, and at same time tou dont want to see it.

Life is more than money, for some is very complicated, they have unintegrated emotions from childhood and some will never solve them in their lifetimes.

And for sure they dont need you alienating them telling them they are wrong because they dont see things like you do. If there was only one way to think, there wil only be one person.

[mrswdk]

I heard that at the end of the day beggars usually walk down the nearest alley and change back into their top hat and tails, before climbing into their Bentley and driving back to their luxury apartment complex to spend their day's spare change on champagne and high class escorts.

[TeeGee]

Sorry Scotty, but here you sound like the idiots in charge of Australian politics at the moment. A few months ago our treasurer turned around and said "The new fuel tax will not affect the poor as they can't afford to drive anyway" Not all of the poor are on drugs, smoke, alcoholics.. there are many many genuine ones out there and you do not have to look hard to find them. I have spent many many hours working with them, you should try it sometime.

[mrswdk]

Sorry Scotty, but here you sound like the idiots in charge of Australian politics at the moment. A few months ago our treasurer turned around and said "The new fuel tax will not affect the poor as they can't afford to drive anyway" Not all of the poor are on drugs, smoke, alcoholics.. there are many many genuine ones out there and you do not have to look hard to find them. I have spent many many hours working with them, you should try it sometime.

Abbott, a fool? Pull the other one.

[AndyDufresne]

--Andy

[tzor]

First of all, I agree that there are those who simply either do not know how to properly budget or lack the fortitude to do so. There are a number of reasons for this, starting from the fact that while we bend over backwards to teach our children about "right triangles" we completely ignore the notion of a balanced checkbook. Most people in "first world" poverty might be considered upper middle class in the "third world." Yes, there are the occasions where people are without running water Detroit water shut-offs bring U.N. scrutiny

"When you make $25,000 a year and you pay $500 dollars in rent on top of all the medication, my health insurance, I'm literally over my head."

So, let's break this down. What is poverty? Well it's based on two things, income and cost of living. Is the former low or is the later high and if so why?

I would contend that it is the later; costs of living is exceptionally high driving the lower classes into poverty. The reason for this is GOVERNMENT.

You mentioned cigarettes. In New York City, for example, the government tacks on $5,28 for each "pack" of cigarettes. (It's $6.16 in Chicago.)

What about health care? Obamacare hasn't completely kicked in yet. Even more money being taken from the lower classes. (See quote above.)

What about urban planning? Policies that restrict land use, raising the costs of property and resulting is inflationary pressure on rental costs?

What about crap government policies that drives up the costs of utilities, transportation, and basically all your taxes you pay to the government?

Let's get back to NYC, you start off with a added portion of your incomes taxes going to the city. (Slightly under 3%.) Then you have to pay a sales tax that is under 9% (8.875%). Yes these things don't seem like much, but pretty soon it all adds up and in addition to the state and federal portions that are taken out of your paycheck, the costs for just being the city eat more and more. Now this paragraph alone is relative charges so increasing the income doesn't help, the government only takes its share out of the increase they want to give you (and not from them, but from your employer who passes it along in terms of increases to the product which ironically you are probably purchasing).

The government takest away and the government tries to get someone else to giveth; blessed be the name of the Government.

[Phatscotty]

Get off your high horses.

Not everyone thinks like you.

If you need to remind yourself that is because you dont understand something and are trying to, and at same time tou dont want to see it.

Life is more than money, for some is very complicated, they have unintegrated emotions from childhood and some will never solve them in their lifetimes.

And for sure they dont need you alienating them telling them they are wrong because they dont see things like you do. If there was only one way to think, there wil only be one person.

This isn't about me or how I think. I'm not on a high horse, I am in a pair of pants whose pockets everyone else has a right to dig into, just challenging their premise they 'need' it, therefore it's theirs.

[Metsfanmax]

I do. I notice it all the time!

Then be aware of confirmation bias. You may see what you perceive to be many examples of this, but do you notice the poor people who aren't mis-using their money? By construction, no: you don't notice them because they're not being ostentatious. So how can you know what proportion of poor people are as irresponsible as you indicate here? And if you don't know, can you really make an informed statement on how the poor in America live?

[Phatscotty]

I heard that at the end of the day beggars usually walk down the nearest alley and change back into their top hat and tails, before climbing into their Bentley and driving back to their luxury apartment complex to spend their day's spare change on champagne and high class escorts.

not entirely sarcastic. I don't have the time to dig off official studies or various reports, but it's clear panhandling one can make a lot more than they can working, and they don't pay taxes, all cash. I never give them money. Depending on what their sign says, if they say they are hungry I hand them a bottle of water and a beef jerky stick from my lunch, if they say they are a veteran I hand them a phone number they can call, if they say they are homeless I advise them to walk across the street to the church and seek aid. One of my old friends who was highly addicted to drugs was able to clean himself up at a Church. He could do what he wanted, but had to be back at a certain time and get tested for drugs to show he was clean or else they would not give him free shelter that night. He only needed to sleep under a bridge once to learn that it wasn't worth it and to learn to respect the rules of the free shelter and the rules of life. He still bilks the system collecting social security and food stamps and refuses my numerous offers to put his silver tongue to use selling on the phone for me, but at least he is off drugs and has a stable shelter and food.

Aside; there was a spoof of this in the movie 'Don't be a menace to south central while drinking your juice in the hood' where a guy begging for change actually did tear off his dirty clothes to reveal a pinstripe suit and he laughs and jumped into his mercedes convertible and drove off.

[Phatscotty]

I do. I notice it all the time!

Then be aware of confirmation bias. You may see what you perceive to be many examples of this, but do you notice the poor people who aren't mis-using their money? By construction, no: you don't notice them because they're not being ostentatious. So how can you know what proportion of poor people are as irresponsible as you indicate here? And if you don't know, can you really make an informed statement on how the poor in America live?

And be aware that confirmation bias also does not cross out or justify the clear abuses I and so many others witness personally. I already addressed this in the OP. Check it out. I knew I would get a lot of responses trying to make the issue about me, trying to accuse me of pretending poverty isn't real, etc etc. We are past that, I'm talking about the culture and the attitude, which is aided by these distractions that are pushed to cope with the reality.

And yes I do, I talk to poor people all the time. Funny you lecturing me, and then go on to tell me what I don't see/what I don't do. Is that some new confirmation bias of another based on your own perception of their confirmation bias?

[Phatscotty]

Sorry Scotty, but here you sound like the idiots in charge of Australian politics at the moment. A few months ago our treasurer turned around and said "The new fuel tax will not affect the poor as they can't afford to drive anyway" Not all of the poor are on drugs, smoke, alcoholics.. there are many many genuine ones out there and you do not have to look hard to find them. I have spent many many hours working with them, you should try it sometime.

all 'sounding like an idiot' aside, yes, I'm aware there really are poor people. I addressed that in my OP, check it out. Not sure how that pertains to the rampant abuse/waste and the celebration of a culture and way of life of living off other peoples money.

[Metsfanmax]

I do. I notice it all the time!

Then be aware of confirmation bias. You may see what you perceive to be many examples of this, but do you notice the poor people who aren't mis-using their money? By construction, no: you don't notice them because they're not being ostentatious. So how can you know what proportion of poor people are as irresponsible as you indicate here? And if you don't know, can you really make an informed statement on how the poor in America live?

And be aware that confirmation bias also does not cross out or justify the clear abuses I and so many others witness personally. I already addressed this in the OP. Check it out.

Public policy can and must be interested in doing the greatest good for the greatest number. Suppose the number of abusers is 1%. Is that enough to indict the system? Isn't the good of the 99% who are responsible with the money more important than the loss to the 1%?

I knew I would get a lot of responses trying to make the issue about me, trying to accuse me of pretending poverty isn't real, etc etc. We are past that, I'm talking about the culture and the attitude, which is aided by these distractions that are pushed to cope with the reality.

You are painting a picture of a culture that you imply is prevalent among poor people, but that is only true if most poor people are something like what you describe. If they are not, then the "culture" is an illusion created from your own imagination.

And yes I do, I talk to poor people all the time. Funny you lecturing me, and then go on to tell me what I don't see/what I don't do.

It is hardly an indictment of you or your behavior. It is instead pointing out that no matter how much time you spend with poor people in your free time, it's not going to be a representative sample of poor people in general. There are many, many reasons why you -- anyone in your position, or mine -- will get a biased perspective. First, there's what I pointed out earlier: you don't notice the people being responsible with their money because they're not doing ostentatious things. Second, there are a lot more poor people in America than you will personally interact with, so you would need to meet with a whole lot of them before you could be satisfied that you didn't just see something incorrect from random chance. Third, you only regularly meet with people maybe from your city or county -- can you really say things about the whole of America based on that? Fourth, there are many confounding effects that could explain the behavior other than your proposed hypothesis of them wanting to stay poor. (Have you asked the poor people you have met why they do what they do? Do they usually tell you that they smoke cigarettes because they're too lazy to hold down a job?)

[notyou2]

Wow, huge generalization. Thinking like that makes me think that all people that think like PS are out of touch with reality.

Seriously, yes some have go there due to addictions, but many haven't. In the US some may have got there due to having to pay for medical procedures.

Young people can easily work 40 hours a week and remain below the poverty line. I don't blame them, I blame the greed of our governments and corporations. We are taxed to death and then we get gouged at the grocery store. We were all a lot better off when the local grocery chains were actually a series of small chains or independent stores, not all of them owned by one or two corporations. Electricity keeps going up, sometimes beyond inflation. The big fish keep eating the small fish, that is the problem.

[Lootifer]

I want to post, but im too busy.

[notyou2]

I want to post, but im too busy.

Unemployed lazy drug addict you mean?

[mrswdk]

it's clear panhandling one can make a lot more than they can working

I dread to think what job you do that pays worse than a day on the streets asking for quarters.

[Phatscotty]

First of all, I agree that there are those who simply either do not know how to properly budget or lack the fortitude to do so. There are a number of reasons for this, starting from the fact that while we bend over backwards to teach our children about "right triangles" we completely ignore the notion of a balanced checkbook. Most people in "first world" poverty might be considered upper middle class in the "third world." Yes, there are the occasions where people are without running water Detroit water shut-offs bring U.N. scrutiny

"When you make $25,000 a year and you pay $500 dollars in rent on top of all the medication, my health insurance, I'm literally over my head."

So, let's break this down. What is poverty? Well it's based on two things, income and cost of living. Is the former low or is the later high and if so why?

I would contend that it is the later; costs of living is exceptionally high driving the lower classes into poverty. The reason for this is GOVERNMENT.

You mentioned cigarettes. In New York City, for example, the government tacks on $5,28 for each "pack" of cigarettes. (It's $6.16 in Chicago.)

What about health care? Obamacare hasn't completely kicked in yet. Even more money being taken from the lower classes. (See quote above.)

What about urban planning? Policies that restrict land use, raising the costs of property and resulting is inflationary pressure on rental costs?

What about crap government policies that drives up the costs of utilities, transportation, and basically all your taxes you pay to the government?

Let's get back to NYC, you start off with a added portion of your incomes taxes going to the city. (Slightly under 3%.) Then you have to pay a sales tax that is under 9% (8.875%). Yes these things don't seem like much, but pretty soon it all adds up and in addition to the state and federal portions that are taken out of your paycheck, the costs for just being the city eat more and more. Now this paragraph alone is relative charges so increasing the income doesn't help, the government only takes its share out of the increase they want to give you (and not from them, but from your employer who passes it along in terms of increases to the product which ironically you are probably purchasing).

The government takest away and the government tries to get someone else to giveth; blessed be the name of the Government.

Thanks for your always valued (treasured? ) contribution Tzor. While you accurately describe one important aspect in your first paragraph, the other aspect I am going to be pounding on is those who claim they need aid for food, then when they receive that aid they go and trade it for drugs/cash.

Speaking generally here and not at you Tz, unlike most others, I am not opining that means nobody truly needs food aid. I would like it very much if others could set their emotions aside for one second and admit that while of course people truly need food aid, that's not a valid reason to turn a blind eye to the abuse and waste, and perhaps even admit that there is abuse, perhaps even rampant abuse?

Do we really just let taxpayers be abused by many people based on the premise that many other people truly need the aid??

[crispybits]

I'll start paying more attention to these kinda rants when I see a proportional number of rants about the thousands of billions US companies don't pay in US taxes by way of registering a token head office in tax havens like the Bahamas.

Total US spending on welfare and healthcare could be paid for many times over if US based companies paid US taxes on the true amount of profits they make in the US.

Don't want people's hands in your pockets PS? Instead of targetting the poor for your anger, who are taking out less than 1 cent in every dollar from your money, how about looking at the corporations taking out somewhere in the region of 10 cents in every dollar?

[Phatscotty]

it's clear panhandling one can make a lot more than they can working

I dread to think what job you do that pays worse than a day on the streets asking for quarters.

You get a break.... and also to be considered, in America at l least, it's been shown to be true that when you are standing in a line (this was tested at copy machines, convenience stores, some some other places) that if you simply ask someone if you can go ahead of them in line, much more often than not people will say yes, and that's without even providing a reason.

Panhandler Shane Warren Speegle Says He Made $60,000 A Year Begging On Street
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/2 ... 94577.html

selfproclaimed-professional-panhandlers-net-182-per-hour
http://www.kcra.com/news/selfproclaimed ... r/23849924

Never underestimate the power of playing on people's emotions. Many people make a living doing it, many politicians as well.

[Phatscotty]

I'll start paying more attention to these kinda rants when I see a proportional number of rants about the thousands of billions US companies don't pay in US taxes by way of registering a token head office in tax havens like the Bahamas.

Total US spending on welfare and healthcare could be paid for many times over if US based companies paid US taxes on the true amount of profits they make in the US.

Don't want people's hands in your pockets PS? Instead of targetting the poor for your anger, who are taking out less than 1 cent in every dollar from your money, how about looking at the corporations taking out somewhere in the region of 10 cents in every dollar?

Go ahead, turn a blind eye based on something completely unrelated. It's pretty much normal these days. It's been demonstrated over and over again, when you get to greedy and you start telling other people what they need to spend their money on and then forcing them to spend their money on what you say and then you increase the money demanded and increase it again and again and again, then the things you demand are turned into 'human rights', over and over again the corporations are gonna say 'goodbye' and then the golden goose lay there with a split open stomach because some thought they could open the belly and get all the golden eggs they desired without understanding or caring to understand how the egg is laid. Other people's money really isn't your concern, especially when preached about how people who get money through redistribution is no concern of ours how they spend it, how much more they get than they need. Mind explaining that double standard about why it's okay to get into the business of the ones producing the benefits, but not okay to get into the business of the ones receiving the benefits?

Here's a take....

When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion - when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors - when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you - when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice - you may know that your society is doomed.

I'm not targeting the poor at all, I'm targeting the abusers. Like I said in the OP, there are many people who are purposefully poor, how choose to be poor, who make sure not to work too many hours because then they have to work for the money they are demanding others work longer for. Really, if you can't see this, then you are just banging your head against a wall. Sorry, I like reading your posts and consider you more intelligent than average.

[Phatscotty]

I want to post, but im too busy.

I know what you mean, as I am too busy as well. My woman just so happens to actually have other plans than my penis, so the forum is lucky tonight.

[crispybits]

I'm not saying turn a blind eye to the abuse, I'm saying keep things in proportion. Where are your posts decrying US companies avoiding US taxes on profits they make in the US by using shell companies or token head offices in tax havens?

It's like constantly shouting about the neighbour whose dog shits on your lawn every now and then and ignoring the neighbour on the other side whose horse uses your garden as a lavatory on a daily basis.

Even if we say abuse of the welfare system by the poor costs 60% of the total welfare budget, just the tax avoidance by Apple, Microsoft, Google and Cisco Systems (just 4 companies) would pay for that and leave a few billion in pocket change...

[Phatscotty]

Wow, huge generalization. Thinking like that makes me think that all people that think like PS are out of touch with reality.

Seriously, yes some have go there due to addictions, but many haven't. In the US some may have got there due to having to pay for medical procedures.

Young people can easily work 40 hours a week and remain below the poverty line. I don't blame them, I blame the greed of our governments and corporations. We are taxed to death and then we get gouged at the grocery store. We were all a lot better off when the local grocery chains were actually a series of small chains or independent stores, not all of them owned by one or two corporations. Electricity keeps going up, sometimes beyond inflation. The big fish keep eating the small fish, that is the problem.

are we really getting gouged at the grocery store? Or is it possible that the value of our money which we use to buy those groceries is being gouged by printing trillions more dollars to chase the same amount of goods? Could our currency be gouged of it's value because our government spends almost double what it takes in annually? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Inflation is not caused by the actions of private citizens, but by the government: by an artificial expansion of the money supply required to support deficit spending. No private embezzlers or bank robbers in history have ever plundered people’s savings on a scale comparable to the plunder perpetrated by the fiscal policies of statist governments.

[Phatscotty]

I'm not saying turn a blind eye to the abuse, I'm saying keep things in proportion. Where are your posts decrying US companies avoiding US taxes on profits they make in the US by using shell companies or token head offices in tax havens?

It's like constantly shouting about the neighbour whose dog shits on your lawn every now and then and ignoring the neighbour on the other side whose horse uses your garden as a lavatory on a daily basis.

Even if we say abuse of the welfare system by the poor costs 60% of the total welfare budget, just the tax avoidance by Apple, Microsoft, Google and Cisco Systems (just 4 companies) would pay for that and leave a few billion in pocket change...

No, it's like completely excusing lying, cheating, and stealing......

When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?'