Age of consent

[mrswdk]

But yeah, in the relationships described, seems like both parties are in need of something that they fulfill with the pedophile relationship

Seeing as 99% of people enter into relationships in order to fulfill some kind of need, and you consider that to be 'fucked up' and 'absolutely disgusting', I guess we must conclude that you are an asexual.

[betiko]

But yeah, in the relationships described, seems like both parties are in need of something that they fulfill with the pedophile relationship

Seeing as 99% of people enter into relationships in order to fulfill some kind of need, and you consider that to be 'fucked up' and 'absolutely disgusting', I guess we must conclude that you are an asexual.

If seeing a pedophile relationship as something utterly disgusting means that for you I m an asexual well fair enough.
Those needs by the kids are needs that their parents/friends/families are not fulfilling enough. They haven t been in any form of romantic relationship for the most part, and those men trick them into it taking away their innocence and fucking up their view of a normal relationship doing creepy stuff. Anyway, this makes me feel like pucking enough and will leave it there.
Those men just need to get themselves a dog if they feel lonely and are looking for afection instead of fucking up those kids.
Oh and buy those kids a dog too (a rich one)

[BigBallinStalin]

But yeah, in the relationships described, seems like both parties are in need of something that they fulfill with the pedophile relationship

Seeing as 99% of people enter into relationships in order to fulfill some kind of need, and you consider that to be 'fucked up' and 'absolutely disgusting', I guess we must conclude that you are an asexual.

Yeah, you're kinda taking that survey of the book too far. It's based on 20 adult males, right? With about 40 males <16? And if I recall correctly, most if not all the adults are members of some political organization for pedophiles.

So, if that's all true, then you've got severe sample bias. The study describes a subset of pedophiles whose behavior is self-regulating (through the organization, which presumably better keep its nose clean). For all we know, the organization probably kicks out pedophiles whose behavior they deemed to be inappropriate, so unsurprisingly you get a clean subset of pedophiles for the study.

Already, from the beginning, the summary had a pretty clear agenda, so I wouldn't be surprised if they cherry-picked their samples too.

Based on my talks with a lawyer and a federal agent, each of whom has had 25+ years of experience in their relevant fields in dealing with pedophiles, I'd have to conclude that your link presents an anomalous subset of pedophiles.

[BigBallinStalin]

But yeah, in the relationships described, seems like both parties are in need of something that they fulfill with the pedophile relationship

Seeing as 99% of people enter into relationships in order to fulfill some kind of need, and you consider that to be 'fucked up' and 'absolutely disgusting', I guess we must conclude that you are an asexual.

If seeing a pedophile relationship as something utterly disgusting means that for you I m an asexual well fair enough.
Those needs by the kids are needs that their parents/friends/families are not fulfilling enough. They haven t been in any form of romantic relationship for the most part, and those men trick them into it taking away their innocence and fucking up their view of a normal relationship doing creepy stuff. Anyway, this makes me feel like pucking enough and will leave it there.
Those men just need to get themselves a dog if they feel lonely and are looking for afection instead of fucking up those kids.
Oh and buy those kids a dog too (a rich one)

A big problem is that a person's first sexual encounter tends to engender a strong attachment to with the other, so it's not surprising that many of the kids like the older partner. And, most men who want to f*ck some woman aren't gonna beat and rape her; fucking is about persuasion. Of course, people with experience will use this to their advantage, so it's much easier for the older males to take advantage of kids.

[mrswdk]

@betiko So if a lonely woman finds a new boyfriend, and one of the things she likes about him is that she has found someone who actually pays attention to her, is her boyfriend a sick abuser whose relationship with the woman will inevitably f*ck her up? If no, then why is that suddenly the case when you throw in an age difference?

Besides, your statements about how the study shows lonely people being taken advantage of by older men who do 'creepy stuff' are actually the complete opposite of what the study says, so I have no idea where you have pulled those bizarre conclusions from.

Based on my talks with a lawyer and a federal agent, each of whom has had 25+ years of experience in their relevant fields in dealing with pedophiles, I'd have to conclude that your link presents an anomalous subset of pedophiles.

A federal agent and a lawyer aren't exactly completely unbiased sources either. As legal professionals the pedophiles they will most often encounter are the ones who have done something to end up inside the justice system, and therefore will probably be disproportionately abusive.

The study describes a subset of pedophiles whose behavior is self-regulating (through the organization, which presumably better keep its nose clean). For all we know, the organization probably kicks out pedophiles whose behavior they deemed to be inappropriate

Assuming that this is true, it suggests that legitimizing pedophilic relationships would actually be a step towards combating the abuse that does occur, because the pedophile community could come out if the shadows, engage in a more open dialogue than they previously could and more self-regulation would occur.

A significant amount of adult-adult relationships contain abuse, but adults are still allowed to have relationships with each other.

[notyou2]

@Mrs. WDK At what age did your breasts blossom?

Why can't I find you on Facebook?

[AndyDufresne]

@Mrs. WDK At what age did your breasts blossom?

Yeah, and do your breasts attract bees?


--Andy

[BigBallinStalin]

Based on my talks with a lawyer and a federal agent, each of whom has had 25+ years of experience in their relevant fields in dealing with pedophiles, I'd have to conclude that your link presents an anomalous subset of pedophiles.

A federal agent and a lawyer aren't exactly completely unbiased sources either. As legal professionals the pedophiles they will most often encounter are the ones who have done something to end up inside the justice system, and therefore will probably be disproportionately abusive.

True, there's sample bias from those sources, but I wonder... the amount they encounter is much larger than the 20 pedophiles in a 30-year old study about a very small group of pedophiles in Denmark. Shall we conclude that pedophiles generally are abusive? I'll go with "more likely than not." Given our current data, it seems best to err on the side of caution and not take the Danish study too seriously because it still seems based on an anomalous group of pedophiles.

The study describes a subset of pedophiles whose behavior is self-regulating (through the organization, which presumably better keep its nose clean). For all we know, the organization probably kicks out pedophiles whose behavior they deemed to be inappropriate

Assuming that this is true, it suggests that legitimizing pedophilic relationships would actually be a step towards combating the abuse that does occur, because the pedophile community could come out if the shadows, engage in a more open dialogue than they previously could and more self-regulation would occur.

A significant amount of adult-adult relationships contain abuse, but adults are still allowed to have relationships with each other.

Well, it's not like the organization would want dastardly pedophiles in there ruining its reputation since it seems to have a political agenda, so I don't think it's a far-fetched assumption that they gear themselves toward 'grooming' proper pedophiles.

I like the idea of more open communication, and a civil society for pedophiles and their loved ones at least keeps their relations in the open where it's easier for their community to self-regulate behavior (as well as for outsiders too). I'm pretty much on all issues opposed to state intervention because it's clumsy, more ignorant, less self-correcting, usually more costly, and requires more interventions because the previous set didn't really work.

But, there's still that issue of consent and that question about maturity (which also applies to consensual adult relationships). As AoG said, it should be done on a case-by-case basis, but the Law already is biased toward punishing taboo relationships anyway, and judges need to rely on some kind of precedent, so I'm not sure how practical the case-by-case is.

(lol, are there any CC'ers in here who have studied the law on pedophilia? If so, you probably shouldn't mention that you have).

[mrswdk]

@Mrs. WDK At what age did your breasts blossom?

Yeah, and do your breasts attract bees?


--Andy

https://donatenow.networkforgood.org/hollaback

[mrswdk]

Based on my talks with a lawyer and a federal agent, each of whom has had 25+ years of experience in their relevant fields in dealing with pedophiles, I'd have to conclude that your link presents an anomalous subset of pedophiles.

A federal agent and a lawyer aren't exactly completely unbiased sources either. As legal professionals the pedophiles they will most often encounter are the ones who have done something to end up inside the justice system, and therefore will probably be disproportionately abusive.

True, there's sample bias from those sources, but I wonder... the amount they encounter is much larger than the 20 pedophiles in a 30-year old study about a very small group of pedophiles in Denmark. Shall we conclude that pedophiles generally are abusive? I'll go with "more likely than not." Given our current data, it seems best to err on the side of caution and not take the Danish study too seriously because it still seems based on an anomalous group of pedophiles.

I guess I would say that all we can objectively conclude is that there are many different kinds of pedophiles.

The study describes a subset of pedophiles whose behavior is self-regulating (through the organization, which presumably better keep its nose clean). For all we know, the organization probably kicks out pedophiles whose behavior they deemed to be inappropriate

Assuming that this is true, it suggests that legitimizing pedophilic relationships would actually be a step towards combating the abuse that does occur, because the pedophile community could come out if the shadows, engage in a more open dialogue than they previously could and more self-regulation would occur.

A significant amount of adult-adult relationships contain abuse, but adults are still allowed to have relationships with each other.

Well, it's not like the organization would want dastardly pedophiles in there ruining its reputation since it seems to have a political agenda, so I don't think it's a far-fetched assumption that they gear themselves toward 'grooming' proper pedophiles.

I like the idea of more open communication, and a civil society for pedophiles and their loved ones at least keeps their relations in the open where it's easier for their community to self-regulate behavior (as well as for outsiders too). I'm pretty much on all issues opposed to state intervention because it's clumsy, more ignorant, less self-correcting, usually more costly, and requires more interventions because the previous set didn't really work.

But, there's still that issue of consent and that question about maturity (which also applies to consensual adult relationships). As AoG said, it should be done on a case-by-case basis, but the Law already is biased toward punishing taboo relationships anyway, and judges need to rely on some kind of precedent, so I'm not sure how practical the case-by-case is.

(lol, are there any CC'ers in here who have studied the law on pedophilia? If so, you probably shouldn't mention that you have).

I dunno. If you assess people based on 'maturity' rather than 'physical age' then you are basically subscribing to the same system of centralized control, just changing the criteria for detainee selection.

Assuming that this 'maturity' thing is a legit reason for limiting individual autonomy, and that we can objectively measure people's ability to consistently make decisions that will help them avoid harm (and assuming that they will always have enough information to hand to do so), then how exactly would this system work? Would the 'immature' people just be banned from having sexual autonomy, or would financial and political autonomy be thrown in as well? After all, if telling people that they are too naive to be trusted with control of their own bodies is justified then it stands to reason that telling them they are too naive to spend wisely or influence the development of their country is also justified.

And as you touched on earlier, wouldn't banning those people from making their own decisions merely perpetuate their immaturity?

[mrswdk]

“I want badly to be protected from those who are convinced that they know better than I do what is really good for me, and I want others to receive similar protection.”

Baumol, W., 1962. The Doctrine of Consumer Sovereignty – Discussion. American Economic Review, 52, pp.289.

[BigBallinStalin]

Based on my talks with a lawyer and a federal agent, each of whom has had 25+ years of experience in their relevant fields in dealing with pedophiles, I'd have to conclude that your link presents an anomalous subset of pedophiles.

A federal agent and a lawyer aren't exactly completely unbiased sources either. As legal professionals the pedophiles they will most often encounter are the ones who have done something to end up inside the justice system, and therefore will probably be disproportionately abusive.

True, there's sample bias from those sources, but I wonder... the amount they encounter is much larger than the 20 pedophiles in a 30-year old study about a very small group of pedophiles in Denmark. Shall we conclude that pedophiles generally are abusive? I'll go with "more likely than not." Given our current data, it seems best to err on the side of caution and not take the Danish study too seriously because it still seems based on an anomalous group of pedophiles.

I guess I would say that all we can objectively conclude is that there are many different kinds of pedophiles.

Now, now, mrswdk. Given the available evidence, which would be acceptable to the finest academic journals of the world, we must conclude that the Danish pedophiles are special, and that pedophiles in general are abusive--holding nationality constant.

The study describes a subset of pedophiles whose behavior is self-regulating (through the organization, which presumably better keep its nose clean). For all we know, the organization probably kicks out pedophiles whose behavior they deemed to be inappropriate

Assuming that this is true, it suggests that legitimizing pedophilic relationships would actually be a step towards combating the abuse that does occur, because the pedophile community could come out if the shadows, engage in a more open dialogue than they previously could and more self-regulation would occur.

A significant amount of adult-adult relationships contain abuse, but adults are still allowed to have relationships with each other.

Well, it's not like the organization would want dastardly pedophiles in there ruining its reputation since it seems to have a political agenda, so I don't think it's a far-fetched assumption that they gear themselves toward 'grooming' proper pedophiles.

I like the idea of more open communication, and a civil society for pedophiles and their loved ones at least keeps their relations in the open where it's easier for their community to self-regulate behavior (as well as for outsiders too). I'm pretty much on all issues opposed to state intervention because it's clumsy, more ignorant, less self-correcting, usually more costly, and requires more interventions because the previous set didn't really work.

But, there's still that issue of consent and that question about maturity (which also applies to consensual adult relationships). As AoG said, it should be done on a case-by-case basis, but the Law already is biased toward punishing taboo relationships anyway, and judges need to rely on some kind of precedent, so I'm not sure how practical the case-by-case is.

(lol, are there any CC'ers in here who have studied the law on pedophilia? If so, you probably shouldn't mention that you have).

I dunno. If you assess people based on 'maturity' rather than 'physical age' then you are basically subscribing to the same system of centralized control, just changing the criteria for detainee selection.

Assuming that this 'maturity' thing is a legit reason for limiting individual autonomy, and that we can objectively measure people's ability to consistently make decisions that will help them avoid harm (and assuming that they will always have enough information to hand to do so), then how exactly would this system work? Would the 'immature' people just be banned from having sexual autonomy, or would financial and political autonomy be thrown in as well? After all, if telling people that they are too naive to be trusted with control of their own bodies is justified then it stands to reason that telling them they are too naive to spend wisely or influence the development of their country is also justified.

And as you touched on earlier, wouldn't banning those people from making their own decisions merely perpetuate their immaturity?

Ah. Ideally, I'd leave the assessment of maturity to the individuals with their relevant social networks and organizations. The alternative is not only the state. Granted, when state courts get involved and have a monopoly, then yes, I'd expect poor outcomes--but compared to what? The 'practical' alternative is legislative fiat, and again we've run into the problem of what to do about legal precedents.

Think of it this way. We need not think like planners of society, although I've been framing it that way. That organization in Denmark is interesting because it may open up public discourse, which may in turn influence the legislature and/or judges (over time). So, I'm open to that avenue. I'm just entertaining AoG's thought about 'case-by-case'.

Regarding the following two paragraphs, some of what I've already said relates to it, but let me tickle your fancy. The main issue is "asymmetrical information": you don't know what the other knows--as far as relevant information is concerned. Basically, you're asking me: how do people put up with assholes in the dating 'market'. Well, there's a variety of ways, and many 'slip through the cracks'. It's a learning process within an environment of dispersed knowledge (even if one central authority can gather all the requisite information and become the nation's matchmaker, I'd expect that enterprise to be worse than the current bumbling-about of people in society).

Dating sites seem to be successful in settling adult-adult relationships. People themselves within their circle of friends do as well. If 'society' was terrible at this, I'd expect the percentage of abusive relationships to be greater than good relationships. From off-hand knowledge, that's not the case.

Maybe we should be just satisfied with the current mess while pushing it ever so slightly toward a better environment?

[BigBallinStalin]

"IWishIHadAGirlWhoLookedGoodIWouldCallHer"

lol!

[BigBallinStalin]

“I want badly to be protected from those who are convinced that they know better than I do what is really good for me, and I want others to receive similar protection.”

Baumol, W., 1962. The Doctrine of Consumer Sovereignty – Discussion. American Economic Review, 52, pp.289.

Hey, Baumol. If you keep walking that way, you'll fall off the cliff.

“I want badly to be protected from those who are convinced that they know better than I do what is really good for me, and I want others to--AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

[mrswdk]

I guess I would say that all we can objectively conclude is that there are many different kinds of pedophiles.

Now, now, mrswdk. Given the available evidence, which would be acceptable to the finest academic journals of the world, we must conclude that the Danish pedophiles are special, and that pedophiles in general are abusive--holding nationality constant.

Just fyi, 'Dutch' means they are from the Netherlands, not Denmark

HOOOOOOOOOOOMER!

I dunno. If you assess people based on 'maturity' rather than 'physical age' then you are basically subscribing to the same system of centralized control, just changing the criteria for detainee selection.

Assuming that this 'maturity' thing is a legit reason for limiting individual autonomy, and that we can objectively measure people's ability to consistently make decisions that will help them avoid harm (and assuming that they will always have enough information to hand to do so), then how exactly would this system work? Would the 'immature' people just be banned from having sexual autonomy, or would financial and political autonomy be thrown in as well? After all, if telling people that they are too naive to be trusted with control of their own bodies is justified then it stands to reason that telling them they are too naive to spend wisely or influence the development of their country is also justified.

And as you touched on earlier, wouldn't banning those people from making their own decisions merely perpetuate their immaturity?

Ah. Ideally, I'd leave the assessment of maturity to the individuals with their relevant social networks and organizations. The alternative is not only the state. Granted, when state courts get involved and have a monopoly, then yes, I'd expect poor outcomes--but compared to what? The 'practical' alternative is legislative fiat, and again we've run into the problem of what to do about legal precedents.

Think of it this way. We need not think like planners of society, although I've been framing it that way. That organization in Denmark is interesting because it may open up public discourse, which may in turn influence the legislature and/or judges (over time). So, I'm open to that avenue. I'm just entertaining AoG's thought about 'case-by-case'.

In order to achieve the underlined without subjecting anyone's sexual rights to state control, you would need to deregulate fully and let society police itself. If you rely on mechanisms such as the bolded then you assume the continued authority of the legislature to regulate sexuality.

Regarding the following two paragraphs, some of what I've already said relates to it, but let me tickle your fancy. The main issue is "asymmetrical information": you don't know what the other knows--as far as relevant information is concerned. Basically, you're asking me: how do people put up with assholes in the dating 'market'. Well, there's a variety of ways, and many 'slip through the cracks'. It's a learning process within an environment of dispersed knowledge (even if one central authority can gather all the requisite information and become the nation's matchmaker, I'd expect that enterprise to be worse than the current bumbling-about of people in society).

Dating sites seem to be successful in settling adult-adult relationships. People themselves within their circle of friends do as well. If 'society' was terrible at this, I'd expect the percentage of abusive relationships to be greater than good relationships. From off-hand knowledge, that's not the case.

Maybe we should be just satisfied with the current mess while pushing it ever so slightly toward a better environment?

Yeah. Like you say: relationships are a learning process, same as anything else, and we learn by doing.

Generally speaking, and the Sandfort research seems to support this, kids under the age of 10 or 11 aren't interested in sex or relationships anyway. Once they get past that age and start getting curious, I don't see what reason there is to prevent them from engaging in consensual relationships. Maybe some things within the relationship will upset them, but then the same is true for people of any age who are in a relationship. Ditto for the chances of the relationship becoming abusive, and ditto for the chances of a weirdo meeting someone under legitimate circumstances and then luring them into some sort of trap.

[betiko]

Under the age of 10-11? Of course i was interested in sex. Or whatever it was. I used to get naked with classmate girls i would invite to my house and play doctor. Sure it didn t go further than kissing on the lips or kissing the vagina. Was still loads of fun and felt like doing something really naughty. I was mostly obsessed by getting the girls naked. Felt like we did something really bad when caught by adults though! You re both learning. No need for a kinky old man for that.

[nietzsche]

Under the age of 10-11? Of course i was interested in sex. Or whatever it was. I used to get naked with classmate girls i would invite to my house and play doctor. Sure it didn t go further than kissing on the lips or kissing the vagina. Was still loads of fun and felt like doing something really naughty. I was mostly obsessed by getting the girls naked. Felt like we did something really bad when caught by adults though! You re both learning. No need for a kinky old man for that.

you surely miss those days, when girls didn't have armpit hair

[betiko]

Under the age of 10-11? Of course i was interested in sex. Or whatever it was. I used to get naked with classmate girls i would invite to my house and play doctor. Sure it didn t go further than kissing on the lips or kissing the vagina. Was still loads of fun and felt like doing something really naughty. I was mostly obsessed by getting the girls naked. Felt like we did something really bad when caught by adults though! You re both learning. No need for a kinky old man for that.

you surely miss those days, when girls didn't have armpit hair

bean farter!

[notyou2]

@Mrs. WDK At what age did your breasts blossom?

Yeah, and do your breasts attract bees?


--Andy

https://donatenow.networkforgood.org/hollaback

I shall rephrase my question.

How old were you when your breasts started budding?


Why can't I find you on Facebook?