United States of Europe

[mrswdk]

Is this the remedy to the mini ex-empires of Europe being squashed like bugs by USA, China, Russia, India, Brazil etc.?

[GoranZ]

Its EU28 ...

In order for United States of Europe to exist first all members should not be someone's puppets... atm vast majority of its members are puppets.
It seems most of its members are not willing to support Europe's common interests, they only support theirs.
European Bureaucracy is quite inefficient when it comes to Europe's priorities.

[saxitoxin]

Agree with GoranZ.

The way things are organized under the Lisbon Treaty and its predecessor, the U.S. only has to influence policy in 15 EU states (give or take) to see that policy implemented in all 28 states. And it can certainly meet that threshold with its client governments in London, Stockholm, and eastern Europe. This is why Washington has been so frantic in the last 15 years for further UK integration and for the accession of Turkey to the EU.

The only way a USE would work is if it dropped the European Commission and the Council of Ministers and replaced it with a Westminster-style government originating in EuroParl. But the population weights of Germany and Italy in the parliament would quickly descend the resulting government into a totalitarian one due to the cultural predisposition of Germans and (northern) Italians to authoritarianism. Either Turkey would still need to be admitted to balance everything out, or, Germany and Italy would need to be compelled to accept increasing levels of immigration over the next 10-15 years to breed out German and Italian personality traits, or, Germany would need to be dissolved and each of the 16 Lander admitted as a separate USE state. None of these things is likely to happen.

[DoomYoshi]

Germany is already way too diffuse.

[betiko]

this will just never happen. Basically, when you are "grounded" within your political party they make you a eurodeputy to get you out of the way, that says a lot. All countries are too self centered and have proved to be too afraid of giving away soverignity to the EU. Also, there are way too many members now and each one has it's own exceptions. The EU is a good thing but has way too many limits; there is a lot of rejections from local populations and they tend to blame the EU for their domestic problems. So right now it's more about trying to keep what we managed to build rather than looking further. Let's not forget what this was all about: creating interdependence in our economies to make us become partners instead of long time rivals that always want to go to war against each other when they hear a fart.

[notyou2]

I wonder what the one dollar coin would look like?

[warmonger1981]

Has anyone considered the TransAtlantic Trade and Investment Partnership and its effects on national sovereignty?

[BigBallinStalin]

Integration will be slow and gradual, or at some crisis it'll split. It depends on the political entreprenuers at the time and how they coordinate further centralization. People generally love a good centralization, so I wouldn't expect much immediate resistance from Europeans (granted: as long as current centralization is gradual, then there's a crisis, during which Europeans scream from more 'efficiency' because centralization = dur efficiendur).

[mrswdk]

@all of you I'm asking if it would be beneficial, not how big the obstacles are to it being achieved.

[BigBallinStalin]

@all of you I'm asking if it would be beneficial, not how big the obstacles are to it being achieved.

I'm sure some of it would be beneficial, but it depends on the costs (e.g. alternative means which may result in greater benefits).

[betiko]

@all of you I'm asking if it would be beneficial, not how big the obstacles are to it being achieved.

are you talking of a political level or an economical level? I'm sure you will reply both... but really, on on both levels it's impossible. People within a same country think too differently, so imagine if you have to add up all these countries and make them speak with one voice... it's just not even worth imaginating things that are impossible.
it's already pretty cool not to have borders between each other and have the same currency (at least for the most part). The EU will remain a colossus with clay feet.

[shickingbrits]

No, it would not be beneficial.

Just look at the US. If the federal government disappeared tomorrow, then many of the issues the US faces could be addressed. Competitive ways to address education, the war on drugs, the medical system, the extreme prison rates, budget deficits, social security, energy policy, bureaucratic waste, ridiculous defense spending.

Do the French want their smoking laws dictated by the germans, the dutch their drug laws dictated by the irish, all done in luxemburg by foreign lawyers?

[betiko]

No, it would not be beneficial.

Just look at the US. If the federal government disappeared tomorrow, then many of the issues the US faces could be addressed. Competitive ways to address education, the war on drugs, the medical system, the extreme prison rates, budget deficits, social security, energy policy, bureaucratic waste, ridiculous defense spending.

Do the French want their smoking laws dictated by the germans, the dutch their drug laws dictated by the irish, all done in luxemburg by foreign lawyers?

Smoking laws is a very bad example. The EU started legiferating about it and in the next years, most of the countries started banning smoking in public places with 1 or 2 years difference. Each country enforcing it In its own way.
The EU had budgets for anti smoking campaigns accross europe centralized from brussels.
And yes, a lot of things are dictated by brussels in terms of economical indexes, you get sanctions if you are too far from what you agreed.
The EU is majorly lead by The franco-german couple, with germany being the dominant. The UK never really tried to take real responsabilities in all this.

[BigBallinStalin]

No, it would not be beneficial.

Just look at the US. If the federal government disappeared tomorrow, then many of the issues the US faces could be addressed. Competitive ways to address education, the war on drugs, the medical system, the extreme prison rates, budget deficits, social security, energy policy, bureaucratic waste, ridiculous defense spending.

Do the French want their smoking laws dictated by the germans, the dutch their drug laws dictated by the irish, all done in luxemburg by foreign lawyers?

Smoking laws is a very bad example. The EU started legiferating about it and in the next years, most of the countries started banning smoking in public places with 1 or 2 years difference. Each country enforcing it In its own way.
The EU had budgets for anti smoking campaigns accross europe centralized from brussels.
And yes, a lot of things are dictated by brussels in terms of economical indexes, you get sanctions if you are too far from what you agreed.
The EU is majorly lead by The franco-german couple, with germany being the dominant. The UK never really tried to take real responsabilities in all this.

So, what about the other examples? Or, was that it?

[Dukasaur]

A European Confederacy would work. A constitutional monarchy ruled by the legitimate Habsburg emperor. Very large nations like Germany, France, and England would have to be broken up into smaller units so that none of them would have an excessively large influence in Parliament.

Social issues like those cited above are not the proper business of a federal government, in Europe any more than anywhere else, and should be handled by local provinces in accordance with their own traditions. The only functions of the federal government should be external defence, and a few core internal functions like setting units of weights and measures, and overseeing the fairness of elections within the individual states and provinces.

[betiko]

A European Confederacy would work. A constitutional monarchy ruled by the legitimate Habsburg emperor. Very large nations like Germany, France, and England would have to be broken up into smaller units so that none of them would have an excessively large influence in Parliament.

Social issues like those cited above are not the proper business of a federal government, in Europe any more than anywhere else, and should be handled by local provinces in accordance with their own traditions. The only functions of the federal government should be external defence, and a few core internal functions like setting units of weights and measures, and overseeing the fairness of elections within the individual states and provinces.

yeah that's a problem just for them brits! this issue was solved long ago elsewhere... even for money!

[betiko]

No, it would not be beneficial.

Just look at the US. If the federal government disappeared tomorrow, then many of the issues the US faces could be addressed. Competitive ways to address education, the war on drugs, the medical system, the extreme prison rates, budget deficits, social security, energy policy, bureaucratic waste, ridiculous defense spending.

Do the French want their smoking laws dictated by the germans, the dutch their drug laws dictated by the irish, all done in luxemburg by foreign lawyers?

Smoking laws is a very bad example. The EU started legiferating about it and in the next years, most of the countries started banning smoking in public places with 1 or 2 years difference. Each country enforcing it In its own way.
The EU had budgets for anti smoking campaigns accross europe centralized from brussels.
And yes, a lot of things are dictated by brussels in terms of economical indexes, you get sanctions if you are too far from what you agreed.
The EU is majorly lead by The franco-german couple, with germany being the dominant. The UK never really tried to take real responsabilities in all this.

So, what about the other examples? Or, was that it?

I just see 2 examples there... the other being drugs in the netherlands. Most people are very happy to have our own drugland here in europe, much more fun than disneyland. Unfortunately now the dutch government made some stupid laws that allow only dutch people to go to coffee shops. I don't think the EU should have any business to do with this. Each country should do what it wants.
So yeah, a european army is better for cost efficiency but you still need your own military force.

[shickingbrits]

Hey Betiko,

We are a union now, dedicated to mutual defence. We need to instil patriotism to all the youth of the union. So let's base history class on this throughout the union.

Where should we begin?

Hey Betiko, our union is suffering from protests in Greece, how should our union deal with these terrorists?

Hey Betiko, we need a union wide media and telecommunications provider, how shall we amalgamate our current providers to deliver a union wide perspective?

Hey Betiko, we have passed universal food safety standards that require pasteurization of all dairy products. Failure to comply will result in heavy fines, sanctions and enforcement. Please stop production, sales and consumption of all non-pasteurzied cheeses immediately.

[tzor]

First of all, it would help to define what is a "united states."

The United States of America started off as a loose confederacy, went into a federal model, migrated into a mostly central model and adopted European Bureaucracy. The EU has been a Bureaucracy, but over a loose confederacy as opposed to a centralized federal system from day one.

I think from a logical perspective a federal model would be ideal for Europe. On the one hand, England is different from France which in turn is different from Spain and Germany. On the other hand, SOMEONE has to be centrally in charge of SOMETHING. Mutual defense through the same type of alliances that brought about the Great War isn't going to cut it anymore. (And basically that is what NATO is ... do you really think if barbarian hordes ride into Italy someone in England is going to get drafted to protect the Union?)

And to some extent, a full old fashioned US Constitution would be good for Europe. A bicameral legislature where one house would represent the various national legislatures and the other house would represent the population at large makes perfect sense (as it does for the US, but we have to repeal that nasty amendment that the progressives shoved down our throats that neutered all state influence at the national level). Separating executive and legislative functions at the EU level is also logical even if the parliamentary system is used on the national level. (The EU executive should be highly constrained in powers.)

In any rate scrapping the current document and creating a document that can actually be read by the average person without it being so long that it makes a cricket match seem short would be a vital first step. Effect government serve to govern effectively. A bureaucracy exists purely to chop down whole forests in order to publish their mountains of documents of regulations.

[shickingbrits]

Betiko

Tzor makes a good point. You should weigh it carefully when deciding to support a stronger EU.

In the US, this is how unpasteurized dairy products are dealt with.

[DoomYoshi]

Betiko

Tzor makes a good point. You should weigh it carefully when deciding to support a stronger EU.

In the US, this is how unpasteurized dairy products are dealt with.

Not true. You are allowed to drink it if you make it for yourself.

[shickingbrits]

I don't lactate. And what do you mean, "not true"? That is a photo from a raid on a raw milk producer.

[betiko]

Hey Betiko,

We are a union now, dedicated to mutual defence. We need to instil patriotism to all the youth of the union. So let's base history class on this throughout the union.

Where should we begin?

Hey Betiko, our union is suffering from protests in Greece, how should our union deal with these terrorists?

Hey Betiko, we need a union wide media and telecommunications provider, how shall we amalgamate our current providers to deliver a union wide perspective?

Hey Betiko, we have passed universal food safety standards that require pasteurization of all dairy products. Failure to comply will result in heavy fines, sanctions and enforcement. Please stop production, sales and consumption of all non-pasteurzied cheeses immediately.

1) why instil patriotism? patriotism is for dictators. What do you want to change in school programs? make up that we have been all fighting during thousands of years in good spirit?

2) protesting = terrorists? interesting concept. The union should sit and watch; the greek people have the right to get the government they want and protest when they find it necesairy

3) there's already euronews, eurosports, france24, BBC news, arte (french+german chanel) etc that give that sort of perspective and it's not the EU's business. Also, we all speak different languafes so these channels exist in different languages.

4) lol, how idiotic is that question? Members chose if they are in or out of something. if you guys are too stupid in north america to apreciate a good cheese and let your governments tell you what you are allowed to eat or not then you can go rape yourself with a chard stick.