The official conspiracy theory of 9/11

[waauw]

There was a lot of sensitive data in WTC 7. Particularly, the records for the money the US had used to buy up Russian infrastructure was set to reach its ten year audit.

How was that information so widely known about that every guy on Youtube knows about it and yet at the same time so secret that destroying a few servers in one building was enough to wipe it from the face of the earth?

Well if you don't know the full details of the secret, but just the occurence of an anomaly, you could still consider it a secret.

[waauw]

It's odd how so many people do accept that the Bush-adiministration lied about WMD, but don't think it for possible that they lied about 9/11. It's not like red flag operations are so unusual. They've occured all throughout history.

[muy_thaiguy]

It's odd how so many people do accept that the Bush-adiministration lied about WMD, but don't think it for possible that they lied about 9/11. It's not like red flag operations are so unusual. They've occured all throughout history.

Not going to post anything outside of this in this thread, so here's the point;
9/11 was about Afghanistan. Iraq was a couple years later. And Saddam did have WMD's, since that's what he used on the Kurds back in the late 80s (and the Kurds really like us for taking him out). So he did have at least some access to WMD's, at least then.

Thank you and have a good day.

[thegreekdog]

I wouldn't take you seriously either. Your belief in a conspiracy theory that is impossible according to science would make me question your capacity for useful dialogue.

Your willingness to self censor wouldn't make you someone I would want to associate with.

Cool. I'll wave to you when I'm successful in the endeavor and you're stlil ranting about a 9/11 conspiracy that has f*ck all (UK friends - did I use that right?) to do with anything.

[thegreekdog]

It's odd how so many people do accept that the Bush-adiministration lied about WMD, but don't think it for possible that they lied about 9/11. It's not like red flag operations are so unusual. They've occured all throughout history.

Not going to post anything outside of this in this thread, so here's the point;
9/11 was about Afghanistan. Iraq was a couple years later. And Saddam did have WMD's, since that's what he used on the Kurds back in the late 80s (and the Kurds really like us for taking him out). So he did have at least some access to WMD's, at least then.

Thank you and have a good day.

That was my understanding as well.

[thegreekdog]

All of those things need some sort of stimulus or pretext. You don't just go drone strike a Pakistani wedding for no reason whatsoever, and you can't just rent-seek on behalf of your friends without any pretext whatsoever (in a land of public disclosure and freedom of information).

Oh sure. What's the pretext now though? Is it still 9/11? Do we think ISIS is a vast conspiracy?

Dunno. My point's just that even if those things would probably have happened even without 9/11, it doesn't automatically follow that 9/11 was for real. Maybe Iraq would have been invaded without the WMD intelligence, but that doesn't mean the WMD intelligence was genuine (in that case we now know it was bogus).

Okay. Like I said before, I like to operate with the least amount of crazy as possible. The less crazy you are, the easier it is to get people to listen to you. And yes, crazy is a subjective term and relative and all that.

[_sabotage_]

There was a lot of sensitive data in WTC 7. Particularly, the records for the money the US had used to buy up Russian infrastructure was set to reach its ten year audit.

How was that information so widely known about that every guy on Youtube knows about it and yet at the same time so secret that destroying a few servers in one building was enough to wipe it from the face of the earth?

What was known about at the time was that ONI, the office of Naval Intelligence was investigatng crimes for the plundering of Russia, because the ONI said so.

39 of the 40 member investigative team were killed in the Pentagon. What has been unproven, since all the evidence was lost, was who did it.

You feel that evidence was everywhere and likely if an effort was made to recoup some, it could be. Following the attacks though, there wasn't anyone alive assigned to it. There was no order to restart the investigation, no order to re-roundup the data which could be retrieved. And the clinchers is that the clearing regulations which could have tied people to the money and then to the investigation were eased due to emergency measures following 9/11. For all we know, the investigators had a sting operation set up for anyone who tried to cash out those securities.

Right now over 2300 engineers, chemist, metallurgists, physicists, architects, demolish experts and forensic experts believe that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition. They've provided compelling evidence, peer reviewed and yet can't get anyone to take them seriously. You can have all the evidence in the world, but if you don't have investigators assigned to come to a substantiated position that the government is prepared to put to public trial, then it doesn't matter.

[_sabotage_]

Please explain why questioning poorly produced results that ignore information and alter known parameters is crazy TGD.

[_sabotage_]

It's odd how so many people do accept that the Bush-adiministration lied about WMD, but don't think it for possible that they lied about 9/11. It's not like red flag operations are so unusual. They've occured all throughout history.

Not going to post anything outside of this in this thread, so here's the point;
9/11 was about Afghanistan. Iraq was a couple years later. And Saddam did have WMD's, since that's what he used on the Kurds back in the late 80s (and the Kurds really like us for taking him out). So he did have at least some access to WMD's, at least then.

Thank you and have a good day.

Who brokered the deal, mtg? Whose companies set up the facilities? Who was pushing Saddam into conflict?

Let me help you: Rumsfeld, the US's, the US. He had some access to WMDs because we sold them to him. There's a term for that...

[_sabotage_]

Successful in the endeavor? The people who you wish to prevent from capitalizing off of the things we can agree on: own your favorite politician. The guy you vote for.

Good luck with that.

[thegreekdog]

Please explain why questioning poorly produced results that ignore information and alter known parameters is crazy TGD.

To borrow one of your "debate tactics," focusing on my definition of crazy doesn't advance the conversation.

[_sabotage_]

I didn't ask you to define crazy, I asked you to substantiate your claim.

Is it crazy because I don't just go along with the NIST theory but I go along with the peer reviewed one?

[thegreekdog]

I didn't ask you to define crazy, I asked you to substantiate your claim.

Is it crazy because I don't just go along with the NIST theory but I go along with the peer reviewed one?

I don't have a theory. Stop bogging me down with irrelevant details. Stop bogging yourself down with inconsequential matters. Focus on what's important! How do we reduce the size of the federal government, de-involve the US in foreign wars, and bring back privacy rights?

[_sabotage_]

By allowing people the ability to fend for themselves.

Organize stakeholders and work towards the automation of industries with each stakeholder receiving a cut. Develop local manufacturing capabilities and an efficient worldwide transport network with the various shareholders funding the development.

Develop along the lines of local benefits that may be transferable on a competitive market seeking the maximum benefit for the stakeholders.

Ensure security by building the locally provideable needs into the community. The community should be able to provide 10% more than it's own requirements.

In this way, effort can be minimized and shared across a broad sector. Each community will have its own objectives but with a larger objective of providing tradeable commodities with other sectors.

Stakeholdings can be passed on or exchanged.

Basically make many big unions that trade with others and look after their own equitably, make efficient transport and communication networks.

Soon just about everything we create will be done in 3d printing. Our ability to design functional facilities with near zero labour input will change the world.

How will we be educating our kids then? I think it is important for the miners to get a stake holding before they're automated out of jobs by machines. As the shareholders are making investments to the future earnings of the industries they are in, so should the other stakeholders whose bread and butter depends on it. And their generations to come.

Taking peoples shit isn't much fun. We could all make more shit for everyone. It's funny, I thought humans were social creatures.

[mrswdk]

Paranoid Keanu Reaves says: what if those conspiracy theories were created by the CIA to distract people from the question of state abuse of extreme power and discredit opponents of the state?

The Holocaust deniers are victims of a similar conspiracy theory conspiracy - by wasting time arguing about whether or not Hitler really did kill the Jews, they are distracted from the question of the enormous curbs on free speech practiced in the EU (e.g. persecution of neo-Nazis in Germany and of Islamic figures in France) while simultaneously being delegitimized in the eyes of the rest of the public.

[waauw]

Paranoid Keanu Reaves says: what if those conspiracy theories were created by the CIA to distract people from the question of state abuse of extreme power and discredit opponents of the state?

The Holocaust deniers are victims of a similar conspiracy theory conspiracy - by wasting time arguing about whether or not Hitler really did kill the Jews, they are distracted from the question of the enormous curbs on free speech practiced in the EU (e.g. persecution of neo-Nazis in Germany and of Islamic figures in France) while simultaneously being delegitimized in the eyes of the rest of the public.

Options here:

• was created to distract people: abuse of power
• wasn't created to destract people and conspiracy theory correct: abuse of power by using government agents for operations they shouldn't be used for and tricking the american people into a war whilst being in a position to pull that final trigger
• no distraction and conspiracy theory incorrect: your point is irrelevant

So either way, there is no point to you mentioning this.You don't cover up abuse of power with more abuse of power by the same individuals. If you want to distract someone, you relay the track to someone else or you cover it up with different less bad crimes.

[waauw]

It's odd how so many people do accept that the Bush-adiministration lied about WMD, but don't think it for possible that they lied about 9/11. It's not like red flag operations are so unusual. They've occured all throughout history.

Not going to post anything outside of this in this thread, so here's the point;
9/11 was about Afghanistan. Iraq was a couple years later. And Saddam did have WMD's, since that's what he used on the Kurds back in the late 80s (and the Kurds really like us for taking him out). So he did have at least some access to WMD's, at least then.

Thank you and have a good day.

I'm talking about reputation here. So bringing up that the Iraq-war was a couple of years later, doesn't matter. We are far enough in the future to cast an opinion on all actions of that same administration, whilst keeping their entire reputation in the back of our minds. This in my case anyway sharpens my distrust, and hence scepticism, of anything that specific administration has done and claimed. As for the WMD, you seem to forget that they did not find any of these WMD. All they found were useless remnants and corroded pieces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Captured_documents

Associated Press reported, "Repeatedly in the transcripts, Saddam and his lieutenants remind each other that Iraq destroyed its chemical and biological weapons in the early 1990s, and shut down those programs and the nuclear-bomb program, which had never produced a weapon."

[waauw]

I didn't ask you to define crazy, I asked you to substantiate your claim.

Is it crazy because I don't just go along with the NIST theory but I go along with the peer reviewed one?

I don't have a theory. Stop bogging me down with irrelevant details. Stop bogging yourself down with inconsequential matters. Focus on what's important! How do we reduce the size of the federal government, de-involve the US in foreign wars, and bring back privacy rights?

This is not trivial at all. It's by researching history that people learn from their mistakes as a society. Read my signature. It's all about proactiveness and justice. It is the task of lawmen to create regulatory systems and laws to make sure history doesn't repeat and to persecute criminals for their wrongdoings.

George W. Bush Jr. and his administration should be trialed in front of the International court of Justice in Den Haag for crimes against humanity.

[Metsfanmax]

Here's the NIST team responsible for the WTC analysis:

http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/ ... embers.cfm

Sabotage, is it your position that the US government actively coerced this group (which includes as consultants three retired members of the NYC fire department, people who presumably would like to see justice achieved) to reach a conclusion about what happened that conflicts with the available evidence? Or are you saying they were in on the conspiracy from the beginning?

[waauw]

Here's the NIST team responsible for the WTC analysis:

http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/ ... embers.cfm

Sabotage, is it your position that the US government actively coerced this group (which includes as consultants three retired members of the NYC fire department, people who presumably would like to see justice achieved) to reach a conclusion about what happened that conflicts with the available evidence? Or are you saying they were in on the conspiracy from the beginning?

Powerful people have powerful means to manipulate both crimescenes and people.

9/11 firefighters talk about explosions:


9/11 firefighters admit evidence was destroyed, investigators lied and that basic investigation guidelines were ignored or violated

[Vinyl-Taliban]

I'm sure a similar proportion wonder why the US hasn't bombed Ebola yet. That pesky foreign thing killing innocent women and children ...

[waauw]

I'm sure a similar proportion wonder why the US hasn't bombed Ebola yet. That pesky foreign thing killing innocent women and children ...

please supply your evidence

[_sabotage_]

NIST reports free fall speed.

NIST previously states free fall speed is impossible.

NIST doesn't explain the discrepancy.

NIST's blueprints show shear studs. NIST's models don't show shear studs.

NIST relates that fireproofing led fires to cause previously unwitnessed results. They input a temperature far below known temperatures. They have zero evidence for why they did this.

NIST claims there was no explosives. Did they check? No. Why? Because there were none.

NIST's conclusion, this first of its kind collapse is due to a not protecting against such a collapse.

My position is that their model goes against known parameters, breaks the laws of physics, was pre-conceived, and unsupported by physical evidence.

110 feet of free fall. Zero resistance from the path of greatest resistance. Either we now believe that 110 feet of 81 a36 structural steel disappeared or was removed.

You are supposed to be a physicist Mets.

All samples of dust tested showed nano thermite, capable of being ignited at 430 degrees and then burning at 4500 degrees. In the dust was also iron microspheres. The estimated amounts of these iron microspheres found is 10,000 tons. They were present in all samples of dust found. The partially reacted nano thermite shows these microspheres being formed off it.

NIST states, if it were a controlled demolition, a explosion creating a 120-140 decibel sound wave would have been heard. It was, immediately followed by firefighters saying, "7's exploding".

Either 110 feet of a36 structural steel, rated at 2750 degrees melting point simply vanished, or the nano thermite presence, which NIST didn't check for, took the steel away.

[thegreekdog]

I didn't ask you to define crazy, I asked you to substantiate your claim.

Is it crazy because I don't just go along with the NIST theory but I go along with the peer reviewed one?

I don't have a theory. Stop bogging me down with irrelevant details. Stop bogging yourself down with inconsequential matters. Focus on what's important! How do we reduce the size of the federal government, de-involve the US in foreign wars, and bring back privacy rights?

This is not trivial at all. It's by researching history that people learn from their mistakes as a society. Read my signature. It's all about proactiveness and justice. It is the task of lawmen to create regulatory systems and laws to make sure history doesn't repeat and to persecute criminals for their wrongdoings.

George W. Bush Jr. and his administration should be trialed in front of the International court of Justice in Den Haag for crimes against humanity.

I think you're rather naive if you think President Bush and his administration are the only ones who engaged in arguably criminal wrongdoings. And this is where we come to the crux of one of the major issues associated with the United States public. I'm not suggesting that you are one of these people, but many, many, many people on both sides of the political spectrum get bogged down in political preference without realizing that whether the president or the Congressperson is a Democrat or Republican, they all engage in the same abuse of power. They all reward cronies with political, social, and economic power. They all engage in foreign wars. They all support, directly or indirectly the torture of prisoners or terrorists. They all support the Patriot Act and use the powers granted by that act to engage in gross violations of privacy.

So, yeah, you can go try President Bush and his administration in the Hague if you want; but that's not going to do anything. What needs to happen is that people need to realize that government spending, military spending and presence, and the violations of privacy rights are major problems and people need to elect representatives (and a president) who will curb those things. And guess what? The serious people we hear about being included in the presidential candidacy nominations right now are not those people. Hillary Clinton is not that person. Mitt Romney is not that person. Jeb Bush is not that person. Chris Christie is not that person. But the vast majority of people are going to vote for one of those four people and the abuses will continue.

[thegreekdog]

By allowing people the ability to fend for themselves.

Organize stakeholders and work towards the automation of industries with each stakeholder receiving a cut. Develop local manufacturing capabilities and an efficient worldwide transport network with the various shareholders funding the development.

Develop along the lines of local benefits that may be transferable on a competitive market seeking the maximum benefit for the stakeholders.

Ensure security by building the locally provideable needs into the community. The community should be able to provide 10% more than it's own requirements.

In this way, effort can be minimized and shared across a broad sector. Each community will have its own objectives but with a larger objective of providing tradeable commodities with other sectors.

Stakeholdings can be passed on or exchanged.

Basically make many big unions that trade with others and look after their own equitably, make efficient transport and communication networks.

Soon just about everything we create will be done in 3d printing. Our ability to design functional facilities with near zero labour input will change the world.

How will we be educating our kids then? I think it is important for the miners to get a stake holding before they're automated out of jobs by machines. As the shareholders are making investments to the future earnings of the industries they are in, so should the other stakeholders whose bread and butter depends on it. And their generations to come.

Taking peoples shit isn't much fun. We could all make more shit for everyone. It's funny, I thought humans were social creatures.

I don't know much about any of the things you propose. My proposition is a little more incremental:

- Redistrict house of representatives districts to account more accurately for demographics. The House should have thousands of members. This will provide more Europe-like voting blocks.
- Remove the bases of power of the two major parties (this could become a natural occurrence), including rules that benefit those parties to the detriment of others.
- Abolish many executive branches of government.
- Remove all military presences from around the world.
- Stop engagement in foreign wars without a direct attack on the United States. Regardless, stop engaging in foreign wars without the express act of Congress.
- Abolish the Patriot Act and stop all spying on domestic citizens, including, but not limited to, wiretapping.

Essentially, I want a national government as it was envisioned at its creation - a place for national defense and to regulate interstate commerce. I would scale it back to where it was immediately after the US Civil War.