U.S. aircraft carrier sunk by French submarine

[waauw]

Waauw is from belgium that is a rather small country within europe. Do Blegians feel the same way as french or germans regarding any geopolitical issue? No. So why don t you ask belgiumto be europe s bitch?
Then you have flemish and wallons... Maybe some people can say that wallons are flemish bitches.
Then I guess you can go on a regional level, on a borough level, on an appartment building level.

haha, you're completely right. We don't feel repressed by europe or any other nation really, but many flemishmen and walloons do feel repressed by each other

[crispybits]

Those of us who subscribe to the Neo-Gramscian approach do not believe the US acts through force toward other first world nations. It is different from previous empires because it seeks to manufacture consent. It does this through the integration of culture, commerce, and government. This triumvirate of power is known as the "transnational historic bloc."

That's hardly a novel strategy though is it saxi? I mean the Romans basically subscribed to that theory whenever possible. Don't invade, assimilate...

[muy_thaiguy]

Those of us who subscribe to the Neo-Gramscian approach do not believe the US acts through force toward other first world nations. It is different from previous empires because it seeks to manufacture consent. It does this through the integration of culture, commerce, and government. This triumvirate of power is known as the "transnational historic bloc."

That's hardly a novel strategy though is it saxi? I mean the Romans basically subscribed to that theory whenever possible. Don't invade, assimilate...

Wasn't it "invade and then assimilate"?

[Dukasaur]

When the US gave the excuse of weapons of mass destruction to invade irak, Chirac gave Bush a little middle finger to stick right up his ass. The american people took it as a huge disrespect from france not to follow their lead. There was nothing personal there, we just thought it was not justified.

Yeah, yeah, Chirac talked a lot, but did he DO anything? Did he use France's seat on the U.S. Security Council to help pass a motion censuring the U.S. for its invasion of Iraq? No. That's precisely what patches is talking about. Talk is cheap. Anybody can go "blah, blah, blah, my principles reign supreme" for the news cameras, but behind the scenes they bend over and take it up the ass.

All kinds of European countries made irrelevant donkey noises about how the American actions were wrong, but did any of them actually take any meaningful actions? Did any of them actually bring a motion on the floor of the U.N. to sanction the U.S.? Did any of them actually launch a prosecution at the World Court to hang George Bush for his war crimes? (Don't say it was none of your business -- you spent millions hunting Milosevic, why didn't you spend millions hunting Bush, who was responsible for at least 100,000 needless deaths, 500 times more than Milosevic?) Did anybody actually embargo the U.S.? Refuse to sell titanium to American defense contractors? Freeze the assets of companies known to be selling arms to totalitarian regimes in the Middle East? Did you DO anything? Anything at all? No, just talk, talk, talk. It doesn't matter what the idiots with the news cameras think. It doesn't matter what the idiot lumpenproletariat thinks. What matters, is, did you take any ACTION to stop what was happening?

We just have a very conservative vision of borders here, we just want nothing to change.

A lovely vision. But the gangsters in Washington and Peking and Moscow don't give a shit what you want or don't want. All they care about is -- do you have enough tanks to stop them when they come and take what they want?

Each european nation is really different, and the current problems the EU is facing shows that we can't get much closer than we already are. Are we putting ourselves in a difficult situation? I don't think so. We pass on the lead. No need for it. This is like playing risk, dropping a smaller bonus and not attacking, just stacking while others are stacking more. You're still droping enough to make it uninteresting to be attacked if other guys are smart.

Well, yeah, you don't have to be Number 1 in the world. It's okay to be Number 5 or Number 10, as long as you're tough enough that others can't come and dictate to you. But unfortunately, that isn't the case.

I don't feel threatened because of my nationality and I don't fear being ever invaded by anyone. In france, people had to make a year of military service until the guys born in 1976, so I didn't get to do it (I'm from 1980) and I'm happy I didn't get to do it.

Big mistake.

[Dukasaur]

Those of us who subscribe to the Neo-Gramscian approach do not believe the US acts through force toward other first world nations. It is different from previous empires because it seeks to manufacture consent. It does this through the integration of culture, commerce, and government. This triumvirate of power is known as the "transnational historic bloc."

That's hardly a novel strategy though is it saxi? I mean the Romans basically subscribed to that theory whenever possible. Don't invade, assimilate...

Ummm... name somebody the Romans assimilated without invading first?

[crispybits]

Parts of Southern England?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/th ... 43852.html

[waauw]

All kinds of European countries made irrelevant donkey noises about how the American actions were wrong, but did any of them actually take any meaningful actions?

The US is still an ally, why would europe start putting sanctions on allies? That's completely non-sensical even if you disagree. But it's precisely because europe lent so little help to Iraq that cost the US so much more money, it's precisely because europe doesn't agree with the US over Ukraine that we don't have a warconflict that has escalated several stages further.

Well, yeah, you don't have to be Number 1 in the world. It's okay to be Number 5 or Number 10, as long as you're tough enough that others can't come and dictate to you. But unfortunately, that isn't the case.

Actually the UK, France and Germany have the nr. 5, 6 and 7 strongest militaries on the planet.
http://www.businessinsider.com/11-most-powerful-militaries-in-the-world-2014-4?IR=T

[betiko]

All kinds of European countries made irrelevant donkey noises about how the American actions were wrong, but did any of them actually take any meaningful actions?

The US is still an ally, why would europe start putting sanctions on allies? That's completely non-sensical even if you disagree. But it's precisely because europe lent so little help to Iraq that cost the US so much more money, it's precisely because europe doesn't agree with the US over Ukraine that we don't have a warconflict that has escalated several stages further.

Well, yeah, you don't have to be Number 1 in the world. It's okay to be Number 5 or Number 10, as long as you're tough enough that others can't come and dictate to you. But unfortunately, that isn't the case.

Actually the UK, France and Germany have the nr. 5, 6 and 7 strongest militaries on the planet.
http://www.businessinsider.com/11-most-powerful-militaries-in-the-world-2014-4?IR=T

which is more or less the rank those european countries have in terms of economical power. The thing here is that the US is over militarized, that budget is just ridiculous... and 19 aircraft carriers... pfff a bit of an overkill init?

What is funny here, is that duka is from canada. Canada is by far much more the US's bitch and he should be looking in his own back yard first.

[Dukasaur]

Well, yeah, you don't have to be Number 1 in the world. It's okay to be Number 5 or Number 10, as long as you're tough enough that others can't come and dictate to you. But unfortunately, that isn't the case.

Actually the UK, France and Germany have the nr. 5, 6 and 7 strongest militaries on the planet.
http://www.businessinsider.com/11-most-powerful-militaries-in-the-world-2014-4?IR=T

You missed the relevant passage, so I've highlighted it for you. It's okay to be number 5 or number 10, (or numbers 5, 6, and 7), as long as others can't dictate to you. If you travel to foreign wars merely as an auxiliary supplement to American forces, you're obviously not big enough, regardless of what cardinal number you console yourself with.

Those who don't study history are destined to repeat it. The West today is precisely analogous to the Delian League. Just as Athens became progressively more bold in exploiting its "allies" to pursue its own imperialistic agenda, so is the U.S., and just as Athens dragged its too-trusting friends into ruin, so will the American Imperium.

which is more or less the rank those european countries have in terms of economical power. The thing here is that the US is over militarized, that budget is just ridiculous... and 19 aircraft carriers... pfff a bit of an overkill init?

Maybe it is. But Europe needs to at the very least be able to solve basic European problems. It doesn't need to go on foreign adventures in Afghanistan or whatnot, but it should at least be able to stop Russia from re-occupying Poland, for instance, without waiting for American help. It should have been able to resolve the situation in Bosnia without American help. It should be able to close the Bosporus at will, and the Straits of Gibraltar, and the Kattegat. At present, none of these basic European security concerns could be dealt with sans American help.

What is funny here, is that duka is from canada. Canada is by far much more the US's bitch and he should be looking in his own back yard first.

If I was Prime Minister, we would follow a more independent policy...

Still, no matter who or what ruled Canada, there's zero chance that Canada could seriously stand up to the U.S. and say "go f*ck yourself." A population one-tenth of the U.S., the world's longest border (which would be too long to defend completely even if we became a Spartan nation of full-time warriors) and an economy completely interlocked in almost every way, all mean that Canada will forever be a stable whore to the American. It can choose between being a completely loyal stable whore, or a somewhat feisty and smart-assed stable whore that sometimes says "no", but it will never be able to cross the street completely.

Europe doesn't face those limitations. Europe could reclaim its rightful position as the centre of civilization, instead of being an auxiliary.

[waauw]

which is more or less the rank those european countries have in terms of economical power. The thing here is that the US is over militarized, that budget is just ridiculous... and 19 aircraft carriers... pfff a bit of an overkill init?

What is funny here, is that duka is from canada. Canada is by far much more the US's bitch and he should be looking in his own back yard first.

well yeah, once the US runs out of money, they won't be able to afford their numerous foreign missions and fleets abroad. That's why I think europe should invest slightly more in military, even just investing in empty missiles like the soviets did could be helpful. All that matters is just having something of a scarecrow.

[waauw]

Well, yeah, you don't have to be Number 1 in the world. It's okay to be Number 5 or Number 10, as long as you're tough enough that others can't come and dictate to you. But unfortunately, that isn't the case.

Actually the UK, France and Germany have the nr. 5, 6 and 7 strongest militaries on the planet.
http://www.businessinsider.com/11-most-powerful-militaries-in-the-world-2014-4?IR=T

You missed the relevant passage, so I've highlighted it for you. It's okay to be number 5 or number 10, (or numbers 5, 6, and 7), as long as others can't dictate to you. If you travel to foreign wars merely as an auxiliary supplement to American forces, you're obviously not big enough, regardless of what cardinal number you console yourself with.

Those who don't study history are destined to repeat it. The West today is precisely analogous to the Delian League. Just as Athens became progressively more bold in exploiting its "allies" to pursue its own imperialistic agenda, so is the U.S., and just as Athens dragged its too-trusting friends into ruin, so will the American Imperium.

The only reason the US can dictate over europe to the degrees we see today is because europe is divided. This is why europe should unite its armies. Jointly we'd have the demographically 3rd largest army in the world, with military technology that strongly rivals Russia. No nation on earth would even think of meddling with intra-european affairs if we'd ever reach that stage.

Jointly, europe holds the potential to re-become more powerful than the US.

[mrswdk]

Jointly, europe holds the potential to re-become more powerful than the US.

It does. However, unfortunately for Europe it will have to find a way to stick a cork in nationalism before there is any chance of the EU28 getting their act together.

[waauw]

Jointly, europe holds the potential to re-become more powerful than the US.

It does. However, unfortunately for Europe it will have to find a way to stick a cork in nationalism before there is any chance of the EU28 getting their act together.

Unfortunately so, I fear the wolves in Brussels and Strasbourg are wrecking those dreams

[betiko]

Maybe it is. But Europe needs to at the very least be able to solve basic European problems. It doesn't need to go on foreign adventures in Afghanistan or whatnot, but it should at least be able to stop Russia from re-occupying Poland, for instance, without waiting for American help. It should have been able to resolve the situation in Bosnia without American help. It should be able to close the Bosporus at will, and the Straits of Gibraltar, and the Kattegat. At present, none of these basic European security concerns could be dealt with sans American help.

concerning poland, they decided to cancel their french rafale fighter contract at the last minute to go buy american f16 fighters a few years back. So I would politely propose them to go f*ck themseves and cry for help to the americans, because that is what that means.
Concerning bosnia and the ex yougoslavian conflict, the US barely participated in them compared to europeans, the UNPROFOR troops had actually been lead by 5 different generals; 1 swedish, 1 indian and 3 french. This could've been dealt with 100% without the US.
Why would we want to close the bosphorus? that's entirely turkish land and there is no open conflict there.
Gibraltar... are you kidding? there's enough shit going on there between brits and spanish people claiming it. Also, what signal do you want us to send to northern africa and the middle east by fully controlling the mediterranean?
There is as much difference between a french, a german and a russian. why would we all unite against russians? The power in place in russia isn't a democracy anymore, it's corrupt as it can be and a big part of the russian population is against it. the rest are just brainwashed or just trying to save their priviledges. There is nothing much we can do to save russians from putin.

[betiko]

Jointly, europe holds the potential to re-become more powerful than the US.

It does. However, unfortunately for Europe it will have to find a way to stick a cork in nationalism before there is any chance of the EU28 getting their act together.

Unfortunately so, I fear the wolves in Brussels and Strasbourg are wrecking those dreams

let's face it: the EU has reached its limits. we'll go more backwards than frontwards in that union. The EU is immensely unpopular since the last 10 years, people blame everything on the EU. I think it's more about saving what we have now...

[waauw]

let's face it: the EU has reached its limits. we'll go more backwards than frontwards in that union. The EU is immensely unpopular since the last 10 years, people blame everything on the EU. I think it's more about saving what we have now...

The EU just got too big imo. I think it would be better if the EU broke up in several big pieces of more like-minded and economically equal nations. France, BeNeLux, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and Finland would be a nice and strong combination

[mrswdk]

There is as much difference between a french, a german and a russian. why would we all unite against russians?

You don't think France and Germany would have a vested interest in preventing Russia from invading and conquering Poland (the scenario put forward by Duk)?

[mrswdk]

let's face it: the EU has reached its limits. we'll go more backwards than frontwards in that union. The EU is immensely unpopular since the last 10 years, people blame everything on the EU. I think it's more about saving what we have now...

The EU just got too big imo. I think it would be better if the EU broke up in several big pieces of more like-minded and economically equal nations. France, BeNeLux, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and Finland would be a nice and strong combination

While we're just chucking theoretical proposals out there, the other option would be to completely federalize the whole thing in the style of the US or China and get a solid body that is actually all thrown in behind one common cause.

If you cut the UK, Italy and Spain out of the EU then you've just blown a pretty big whole in the whole thing. Not to mention that to cut out the Mediterranean and Ireland you would have to fracture the Eurozone.

[betiko]

let's face it: the EU has reached its limits. we'll go more backwards than frontwards in that union. The EU is immensely unpopular since the last 10 years, people blame everything on the EU. I think it's more about saving what we have now...

The EU just got too big imo. I think it would be better if the EU broke up in several big pieces of more like-minded and economically equal nations. France, BeNeLux, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and Finland would be a nice and strong combination

While we're just chucking theoretical proposals out there, the other option would be to completely federalize the whole thing in the style of the US or China and get a solid body that is actually all thrown in behind one common cause.

If you cut the UK, Italy and Spain out of the EU then you've just blown a pretty big whole in the whole thing. Not to mention that to cut out the Mediterranean and Ireland you would have to fracture the Eurozone.

it will depend on the french person too, but I'm more likeminded with mediteranean europeans rather than northern ones. We're really a mix of both, probably the only ones in europe given our history and geography.
It's pretty crazy also to see how france is located just in the middle of western europe... Most likely holding a record in terms of border neighbours:
England, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, Andorra, and Spain. That's 9.... and only France and Spain have access to both Atlantic and mediterranean seas. I wouldn't imagine kicking out any of our bordering neighbours.

[betiko]

There is as much difference between a french, a german and a russian. why would we all unite against russians?

You don't think France and Germany would have a vested interest in preventing Russia from invading and conquering Poland (the scenario put forward by Duk)?

oh come on, if such thing happened, that would be WW3. Putin can't be that stupid. Of course EU countries would retaliate somehow, but just saying that Poland has proved that they trust more in the american's help than EU countries throughout their military purchases. So they can just go cry at the americans before their fellow europeans.

[waauw]

let's face it: the EU has reached its limits. we'll go more backwards than frontwards in that union. The EU is immensely unpopular since the last 10 years, people blame everything on the EU. I think it's more about saving what we have now...

The EU just got too big imo. I think it would be better if the EU broke up in several big pieces of more like-minded and economically equal nations. France, BeNeLux, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and Finland would be a nice and strong combination

While we're just chucking theoretical proposals out there, the other option would be to completely federalize the whole thing in the style of the US or China and get a solid body that is actually all thrown in behind one common cause.

If you cut the UK, Italy and Spain out of the EU then you've just blown a pretty big whole in the whole thing. Not to mention that to cut out the Mediterranean and Ireland you would have to fracture the Eurozone.

The UK, though economically significant, has never been very pro-european. They just slow down any progress in european cooperation. As for Italy and Spain, there are huge differences between mediterranean europe and northern europe. Economically and culturally northern europe and mediterranean europe are as resemblent to each other as they are to the US imo. Ireland on the other hand, unlike the UK, is very cooperating so I wouldn't really mind them.

If one were to split up europe according to economics and culture the result would be as follows imo:

• UK & Ireland(though Ireland might fit with northern europe, unlike the rest of europe they hold a more anglo-saxon model)
• Northern Europe: France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Sweden & Finland(though differences between northern and southern france)
• Mediterranean europe: Portugal, Spain, Italy, Malta, Cyprus(maybe Greece, however Greece could be somewhat of a cathegory on its own)
• Eastern Europe: Poland, Czech Republic, Slowakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia

Slovenia I'm not certain where it would fit better, Mediterranean or eastern. And it is possible there are larger differences between eastern european countries than I'm aware of.

[saxitoxin]

which is more or less the rank those european countries have in terms of economical power. The thing here is that the US is over militarized, that budget is just ridiculous... and 19 aircraft carriers... pfff a bit of an overkill init?

What is funny here, is that duka is from canada. Canada is by far much more the US's bitch and he should be looking in his own back yard first.

well yeah, once the US runs out of money, they won't be able to afford their numerous foreign missions and fleets abroad.

Nations that have 19 aircraft carriers, as betiko observed, while the next strongest state has 2, don't run out of money. When it needs more money, it goes and takes it.

The U.S. has broken and flaunted international law since the end of WW2. Why would you think it would quietly and politely go bankrupt? A man with a gun in a town filled with pacifist farmers will never be hungry.

[betiko]

which is more or less the rank those european countries have in terms of economical power. The thing here is that the US is over militarized, that budget is just ridiculous... and 19 aircraft carriers... pfff a bit of an overkill init?

What is funny here, is that duka is from canada. Canada is by far much more the US's bitch and he should be looking in his own back yard first.

well yeah, once the US runs out of money, they won't be able to afford their numerous foreign missions and fleets abroad.

Nations that have 19 aircraft carriers, as betiko observed, while the next strongest state has 2, don't run out of money. When it needs more money, it goes and takes it.

A man with a gun in a town filled with pacifist farmers will never go hungry.

he just might run out of bullets or people to shoot.

[saxitoxin]

which is more or less the rank those european countries have in terms of economical power. The thing here is that the US is over militarized, that budget is just ridiculous... and 19 aircraft carriers... pfff a bit of an overkill init?

What is funny here, is that duka is from canada. Canada is by far much more the US's bitch and he should be looking in his own back yard first.

well yeah, once the US runs out of money, they won't be able to afford their numerous foreign missions and fleets abroad.

Nations that have 19 aircraft carriers, as betiko observed, while the next strongest state has 2, don't run out of money. When it needs more money, it goes and takes it.

A man with a gun in a town filled with pacifist farmers will never go hungry.

he just might run out of bullets or people to shoot.

That's not much solace if you're one of the farmers. And, I hate to break it to you, France is one of the farmers.

[patches70]

which is more or less the rank those european countries have in terms of economical power. The thing here is that the US is over militarized, that budget is just ridiculous... and 19 aircraft carriers... pfff a bit of an overkill init?

What is funny here, is that duka is from canada. Canada is by far much more the US's bitch and he should be looking in his own back yard first.

well yeah, once the US runs out of money, they won't be able to afford their numerous foreign missions and fleets abroad.

Nations that have 19 aircraft carriers, as betiko observed, while the next strongest state has 2, don't run out of money. When it needs more money, it goes and takes it.

The U.S. has broken and flaunted international law since the end of WW2. Why would you think it would quietly and politely go bankrupt? A man with a gun in a town filled with pacifist farmers will never be hungry.

Haha, Saxi hit the nail on the head! Machiavelli was so right, the US learned her lessons well from his wisdom. Europe, not so much.