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King Barack I

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King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Sun May 17, 2015 12:20 am

200 years after the French overthrew the British rulers of the original 13 colonies in a coup d'etat, the United States of America continues to be ruled by a traditional British monarch:

At the constitutional convention, which met in the aftermath of the War of Independence, the delegates agreed that America's new head of state should be an elected president rather than an hereditary monarch.

But this was far from being the whole of the story. To begin with, the denunciation - and the demonisation - of King George III in the Declaration of Independence was based on a seriously misleading exaggeration of his royal prerogatives. Those powers were increasingly being claimed by the politicians, and insofar as George III did re-affirm Britain's right to rule, to tax and to legislate for the American colonies, he believed he was asserting the sovereignty of the British parliament rather than that of the British crown.

But ironically, when the leaders of the American Revolution tried to work out what powers they should give to the newly created American presidency, the only models available were those of contemporary European monarchies, and especially the British. And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature. From the outset, then, the American presidency was vested with what might be termed monarchical authority, which meant that it really was a form of elective kingship. So when Henry Clay, the leader of the American Whig Party regretted that, under Andrew Jackson, the presidency was "rapidly tending towards an elective monarchy", he was in error because it had been an elective monarchy from the very beginning.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32741802
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Re: King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Sun May 17, 2015 12:24 am

King George III:

Image

King George IV:

Image
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Re: King Barack I

Postby Dukasaur on Sun May 17, 2015 12:41 am

mrswdk wrote:
But ironically, when the leaders of the American Revolution tried to work out what powers they should give to the newly created American presidency, the only models available were those of contemporary European monarchies, and especially the British. And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature. From the outset, then, the American presidency was vested with what might be termed monarchical authority, which meant that it really was a form of elective kingship. So when Henry Clay, the leader of the American Whig Party regretted that, under Andrew Jackson, the presidency was "rapidly tending towards an elective monarchy", he was in error because it had been an elective monarchy from the very beginning.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32741802

Yeah, pretty much.

Which is why the ideals of the Revolution were lost within the first 20 years of the new repubilc's life, and eventually it became far more despotic than the European nations that were liberalizing along different tracks.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Sun May 17, 2015 11:11 am

mrswdk wrote:200 years after the French overthrew the British rulers of the original 13 colonies in a coup d'etat, the United States of America continues to be ruled by a traditional British monarch:

At the constitutional convention, which met in the aftermath of the War of Independence, the delegates agreed that America's new head of state should be an elected president rather than an hereditary monarch.

But this was far from being the whole of the story. To begin with, the denunciation - and the demonisation - of King George III in the Declaration of Independence was based on a seriously misleading exaggeration of his royal prerogatives. Those powers were increasingly being claimed by the politicians, and insofar as George III did re-affirm Britain's right to rule, to tax and to legislate for the American colonies, he believed he was asserting the sovereignty of the British parliament rather than that of the British crown.

But ironically, when the leaders of the American Revolution tried to work out what powers they should give to the newly created American presidency, the only models available were those of contemporary European monarchies, and especially the British. And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature. From the outset, then, the American presidency was vested with what might be termed monarchical authority, which meant that it really was a form of elective kingship. So when Henry Clay, the leader of the American Whig Party regretted that, under Andrew Jackson, the presidency was "rapidly tending towards an elective monarchy", he was in error because it had been an elective monarchy from the very beginning.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32741802


Whomever wrote this has an embarrassingly flawed misunderstanding of history.

The American Revolution was against the policies of the Cabinet, not King George. Protests were directed to the Crown in name because that was (and is) the formal and customary means of address to the political apparatus, just like in present days laws are passed in the name of the Crown or the Crown ceremonially opens parliament - are the British people deluded into thinking Queen Elizabeth has personally decided to improve sewage infrastructure maintenance schedules when she says she's going to do that in the Speech from the Throne? Of course not.

The tactical, non-ceremonial, aspects of protests were always directed to the political leadership, as when Benjamin Franklin was the lobbyist of the Pennsylvania General Assembly at the House of Commons, and so forth. He didn't go to London and say "Hey, where's the King? I need to talk to him about a tax rebate proposal!" and there's no evidence that, at any point in two years in London, he ever attempted to meet the King.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Sun May 17, 2015 11:18 am

P.S. - the town of Foxborough, Mass. was renamed by the revolutionary government in Massachusetts after Charles Fox MP at the height of combat operations. Fox proxied American policy proposals against Lord North's government during the revolution and would do things like wear blue ribbonettes to the House of Commons when news would arrive of the defeat of British troops by French and American forces. If Americans were completely deluded about the British system of government they wouldn't have named a town after the stylized "Leader of His Majesty's Loyal Opposition."
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Re: King Barack I

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun May 17, 2015 11:21 am

saxitoxin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:200 years after the French overthrew the British rulers of the original 13 colonies in a coup d'etat, the United States of America continues to be ruled by a traditional British monarch:

At the constitutional convention, which met in the aftermath of the War of Independence, the delegates agreed that America's new head of state should be an elected president rather than an hereditary monarch.

But this was far from being the whole of the story. To begin with, the denunciation - and the demonisation - of King George III in the Declaration of Independence was based on a seriously misleading exaggeration of his royal prerogatives. Those powers were increasingly being claimed by the politicians, and insofar as George III did re-affirm Britain's right to rule, to tax and to legislate for the American colonies, he believed he was asserting the sovereignty of the British parliament rather than that of the British crown.

But ironically, when the leaders of the American Revolution tried to work out what powers they should give to the newly created American presidency, the only models available were those of contemporary European monarchies, and especially the British. And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature. From the outset, then, the American presidency was vested with what might be termed monarchical authority, which meant that it really was a form of elective kingship. So when Henry Clay, the leader of the American Whig Party regretted that, under Andrew Jackson, the presidency was "rapidly tending towards an elective monarchy", he was in error because it had been an elective monarchy from the very beginning.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32741802


Whomever wrote this has an embarrassingly flawed misunderstanding of history.


The guy is British. They have a tendency to do that.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Sun May 17, 2015 11:37 am

And thirdly ...

And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature.


This is just cringe-worthy. The first constitution didn't offer the titular president any of these powers and they didn't come into force until five years after the Treaty of Paris, when the issue of the UK was a distant memory. And, when they did, they were part of a months-long, intricate series of political compromises and backroom dealings to negate Alexander Hamilton's proposal to install a President-for-Life and virtually abolish the states, not some lunchtime decision to emulate Great Britain like the BBC apparently thinks.*

    For a similar, but more competently presented, treatment of power delegation flaws of the U.S. constitution I recommend Ferdinand Lundberg's 1982 volume Cracks in the Constitution.

* The problem with the British is, the smaller and less relevant their nation becomes, the more they seem to think everyone is (and was in the past) secretly obsessed with them. They've become like the fugly girl in high school who thinks she didn't get invited to prom because none of the boys could sort-out who would get the privilege of asking her.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 18, 2015 12:48 am

saxitoxin wrote:The American Revolution was against the policies of the Cabinet, not King George. Protests were directed to the Crown in name because that was (and is) the formal and customary means of address to the political apparatus, just like in present days laws are passed in the name of the Crown or the Crown ceremonially opens parliament.


Every single one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence is directed personally at King George III, with no mention of Parliament or the Prime Minister having a role to play.

You are correct that in the modern world, no one holds the Queen of England responsible for the actions of the British government. However, in the Declaration of Independence the founding fathers very specifically held the King of England responsible for all that they were upset with.

saxitoxin wrote:And thirdly ...

And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature.


This is just cringe-worthy. The first constitution didn't offer the titular president any of these powers and they didn't come into force until five years after the Treaty of Paris, when the issue of the UK was a distant memory.


1776 - Declaration of Independence
1783 - Treaty of Paris, America is founded
1788 - President of America granted the aforementioned powers
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 1:35 am

mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:The American Revolution was against the policies of the Cabinet, not King George. Protests were directed to the Crown in name because that was (and is) the formal and customary means of address to the political apparatus, just like in present days laws are passed in the name of the Crown or the Crown ceremonially opens parliament.


Every single one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence is directed personally at King George III, with no mention of Parliament or the Prime Minister having a role to play.


First, a correction: Parliament includes the King. Crown-in-Parliament describes the King acting in his legislative role, as the promulgator of law (with the advice and consent of the Peers and the Commons).

Second, as stated, it would be stylistically incorrect to address a declaration of independence to the prime minister; the declaration of independence was a dissolution of the state and the king is head-of-state, not the prime minister. The declaration of independence was a formal, legal document and formal, legal documents address - and are addressed to - the sovereign authority. King George was sovereign, not the Earl of Guilford. When the British themselves signed the Treaty of Paris, they declared:

    His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, ...

The British themselves did not say "the Prime Minister acknowledges / the Government acknowledges, etc."

mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:And thirdly ...

And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature.


This is just cringe-worthy. The first constitution didn't offer the titular president any of these powers and they didn't come into force until five years after the Treaty of Paris, when the issue of the UK was a distant memory.


1776 - Declaration of Independence
1783 - Treaty of Paris, America is founded
1788 - President of America granted the aforementioned powers


1788-1783 = 5 years
source: Casio PRIZM FX-CG10 Calculator
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 1:56 am

Also, it further bears noting, that the signers of the Declaration of Independence were mostly the same people who had signed the Articles of Association two years prior. And that list only included one declaration of blame, it being directed at the Cabinet. Obviously they didn't all become confused about the British political system in the 19 months that followed.

We, his Majesty's most loyal subjects, the Delegates of the several Colonies of New-Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode-Island, Connecticut, New-York, New-Jersey, Pennsylvania, the three Lower Counties of New-Castle, Kent, and Sussex, on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina, deputed to represent them in a Continental Congress, held in the City of Philadelphia, on the fifth day of September, 1774, avowing our allegiance to his Majesty; our affection and regard for our fellow-subjects in Great Britain and elsewhere; affected with the deepest anxiety and most alarming apprehensions at those grievances and distresses with which his Majesty's American subjects are oppressed; and having taken under our most serious deliberation the state of the whole Continent, find that the present unhappy situation of our affairs is occasioned by a ruinous system of Colony Administration, adopted by the British Ministry about the year 1763, evidently calculated for enslaving these Colonies, and, with them, the British Empire. In prosecution of which system, various Acts of Parliament have been passed for raising a Revenue in America, for depriving the American subjects, in many instances, of the constitutional Trial by Jury, exposing their lives to danger by directing a new and illegal trial beyond the seas for crimes alleged to have been committed in America; and in prosecution of the same system, several late, cruel, and oppressive Acts have been passed respecting the Town of Boston and the Massachusetts Bay, and also an Act for extending the Province of Quebec, so as to border on the Western Frontiers of these Colonies, establishing an arbitrary Government therein, and discouraging the settlement of British subjects in that wide extended country; thus, by the influence of civil principles and ancient prejudices, to dispose the inhabitants to act with hostility against the free Protestant Colonies, whenever a wicked Ministry shall choose so to direct them.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century ... -20-74.asp
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Re: King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 18, 2015 2:11 am

saxitoxin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:The American Revolution was against the policies of the Cabinet, not King George. Protests were directed to the Crown in name because that was (and is) the formal and customary means of address to the political apparatus, just like in present days laws are passed in the name of the Crown or the Crown ceremonially opens parliament.


Every single one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence is directed personally at King George III, with no mention of Parliament or the Prime Minister having a role to play.


First, a correction: Parliament includes the King. Crown-in-Parliament describes the King acting in his legislative role, as the promulgator of law (with the advice and consent of the Peers and the Commons).

Second, as stated, it would be stylistically incorrect to address a declaration of independence to the prime minister; the declaration of independence was a dissolution of the state and the king is head-of-state, not the prime minister. The declaration of independence was a formal, legal document and formal, legal documents address - and are addressed to - the sovereign authority. King George was sovereign, not the Earl of Guilford. When the British themselves signed the Treaty of Paris, they declared:

    His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, ...

The British themselves did not say "the Prime Minister acknowledges / the Government acknowledges, etc."


There is one section directed exlusively at the king, called 'Abuses of King George III', which includes such targeted complaints as '10.He has made judges dependent on his will alone for the tenure of their offices', and then a different section called 'Efforts to Obtain Justice from Great Britain', in which the authors criticize 'the legistlature', not the king, and state that they have been appealing to all their 'British brethrens', not just the king.

foxitoxin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:And thirdly ...

And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature.


This is just cringe-worthy. The first constitution didn't offer the titular president any of these powers and they didn't come into force until five years after the Treaty of Paris, when the issue of the UK was a distant memory.


1776 - Declaration of Independence
1783 - Treaty of Paris, America is founded
1788 - President of America granted the aforementioned powers


1788-1783 = 5 years
source: Casio PRIZM FX-CG10 Calculator


My point being that all these events happen within a very short period of time.
Last edited by mrswdk on Mon May 18, 2015 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 2:13 am

mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:The American Revolution was against the policies of the Cabinet, not King George. Protests were directed to the Crown in name because that was (and is) the formal and customary means of address to the political apparatus, just like in present days laws are passed in the name of the Crown or the Crown ceremonially opens parliament.


Every single one of the grievances listed in the Declaration of Independence is directed personally at King George III, with no mention of Parliament or the Prime Minister having a role to play.


First, a correction: Parliament includes the King. Crown-in-Parliament describes the King acting in his legislative role, as the promulgator of law (with the advice and consent of the Peers and the Commons).

Second, as stated, it would be stylistically incorrect to address a declaration of independence to the prime minister; the declaration of independence was a dissolution of the state and the king is head-of-state, not the prime minister. The declaration of independence was a formal, legal document and formal, legal documents address - and are addressed to - the sovereign authority. King George was sovereign, not the Earl of Guilford. When the British themselves signed the Treaty of Paris, they declared:

    His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, ...

The British themselves did not say "the Prime Minister acknowledges / the Government acknowledges, etc."


There is one section directed exlusively at the king, called 'Abuses of King George III', which includes such targeted complaints as '10.He has made judges dependent on his will alone for the tenure of their offices', and then a different section called 'Efforts to Obtain Justice from Great Britain', in which the writers state that they have been appealing to all their 'British brethrens' and criticize 'the legistlature', not the king. A disctinction is being made.

foxitoxin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:And thirdly ...

And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature.


This is just cringe-worthy. The first constitution didn't offer the titular president any of these powers and they didn't come into force until five years after the Treaty of Paris, when the issue of the UK was a distant memory.


1776 - Declaration of Independence
1783 - Treaty of Paris, America is founded
1788 - President of America granted the aforementioned powers


1788-1783 = 5 years
source: Casio PRIZM FX-CG10 Calculator


My point being that all these events happen within a very short period of time.


Okay.

I'm satisfied I've won this argument so I'll let you have the last word.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby 2dimes on Mon May 18, 2015 2:17 am

source: Casio PRIZM FX-CG10 Calculator


Is that the one with Tetris?
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Re: King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 18, 2015 2:23 am

Regardless of whether or not the rebels were personally addressing the king or merely addressing him as a formality, that doesn't change the fact about the constitution being drafted in such a way as to give the president monarchical powers.

Given that you have already agreeed with that point in this thread, we can conclude that the overall message of OP is correct and that you are just nit-picking for the sake of it.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 2:26 am

All that said, there were certainly nominal exhortations of deference that would be alien in contemporary times. One that I recall specifically, and have cut here from Early American Poems, was the lyrics to the march performed during the ceremonial entrance of Gen. Washington and Governor Clinton into New York after the city's defenses collapsed.

Image

Also, in Federalist 67, Alexander Hamilton complains about Governor Clinton - without mentioning his name - as having assumed more splendors than even the former king -

He has been decorated with attributes superior in dignity and splendor to those of a king of Great Britain. He has been shown to us with the diadem sparkling on his brow and the imperial purple flowing in his train. He has been seated on a throne surrounded with minions and mistresses, giving audience to the envoys of foreign potentates, in all the supercilious pomp of majesty. The images of Asiatic despotism and voluptuousness have scarcely been wanting to crown the exaggerated scene. We have been taught to tremble at the terrific visages of murdering janizaries, and to blush at the unveiled mysteries of a future seraglio.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed67.asp
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 2:28 am

mrswdk wrote:Given that you have already agreeed with that point in this thread, we can conclude that the overall message of OP is correct and that you are just nit-picking for the sake of it.


Where'd I do that?
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Re: King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 18, 2015 2:33 am

saxitoxin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Given that you have already agreeed with that point in this thread, we can conclude that the overall message of OP is correct and that you are just nit-picking for the sake of it.


Where'd I do that?



sexitoxin wrote:
And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature.


The first constitution didn't offer the titular president any of these powers and they didn't come into force until five years after the Treaty of Paris, when the issue of the UK was a distant memory (i.e. these powers were given to the president in 1788}.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 2:37 am

mrswdk wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:Given that you have already agreeed with that point in this thread, we can conclude that the overall message of OP is correct and that you are just nit-picking for the sake of it.


Where'd I do that?



sexitoxin wrote:
And so the founding fathers gave to the American presidency just those powers they erroneously believed King George III still possessed - to appoint and dismiss his cabinet, to make war and peace, and to veto bills sent up by the legislature.


The first constitution didn't offer the titular president any of these powers and they didn't come into force until five years after the Treaty of Paris, when the issue of the UK was a distant memory.


Yes, I agreed that the USA president has the authority to veto bills and appoint the cabinet. Those are simple statements of fact.

Metsfanmax may tell you the moon appears to have craters, that doesn't mean you can also assume he agrees with you that it must, therefore, be made out of cheese.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 18, 2015 2:47 am

Image
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 2:57 am

mrswdk wrote:Image


OK, you're now one step away from posting Batman videos.

Anyway, to clarify - I do agree the U.S. system of government is not good, I just dispute, and have sufficiently proved, that it's not due to some idea of a BBC junior copyeditor that the USA founders thought the King was almost as powerful as Kanye. An argument can, and often has, been made the president has dictatorial authority, should he choose to use it, but it's never connected to the BBC's flawed understanding of history. I hate to quote a Zionist, but back in 1960 Herman Finer wrote -

It is now the general consensus, and it can be persuasively argued among contemporary justices of the Supreme Court, that there is no limit to the Chief Executive's power.


This is offline in his article The Presidency: Crisis and Regeneration, so I can't offer a link.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 3:10 am

There's also the mysterious Gödel theorem about a mathematically concealed organic provision -

In the words of the American constitutional law scholar John Nowak,
Gödel’s loophole “is one of the great unsolved problems of constitutional
law.”4 Stated briefly, the mathematician and philosopher Kurt Gödel once
claimed to have found a logical contradiction in the United States
Constitution, a fatal flaw that might transform our existing constitutional
democracy (in which political power is divided among different branches
of government) into a legalistic or military dictatorship (in which power is
concentrated in one individual or one branch of government). Yet, like the
lost proof of Fermat’s Last Theorem, in which the French mathematician
and jurist Pierre de Fermat claimed to have discovered a proof that the
equation xn + yn = zn has no integer solution when n > 2 and when x, y, and
z are not equal to zero, no one knows with certainty the particulars of
Gödel’s discovery.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 2w&cad=rja
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Re: King Barack I

Postby jonesthecurl on Mon May 18, 2015 3:11 am

Saxi, not agreeing or disagreeing with any of the finely argued points in this thread, but the author of the article under study is a professor at Princeton.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby mrswdk on Mon May 18, 2015 3:14 am

Well then we are agreed on the main point, which is that the US president currently enjoys powers on a par with those once afforded to European monarchs.

On the plus side, at least he concedes the supremest of supreme authority to his imaginary Christian sky wizard. There's your check and balance, democracy heads.
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Re: King Barack I

Postby saxitoxin on Mon May 18, 2015 3:17 am

jonesthecurl wrote:Saxi, not agreeing or disagreeing with any of the finely argued points in this thread, but the author of the article under study is a professor at Princeton.


That's a horrifying realization.

mrswdk wrote:Well then we are agreed on the main point, which is that the US president currently enjoys powers on a par with those once afforded to European monarchs.


I didn't read that to be the main point.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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